NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020

[VanS]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Is that right? Only down the road?

I guess when you can't respond to the actual essense of a post you latch onto one sentence and misrepresent it so you can make an unrelated point.

I clearly state in the following sentence that I am talking about my philosophy when it comes to player evaluations and projecting success in reference to that sentence.  Obviously THIS THREAD started out being about the NFL Top 100 in 2020.  All those quotes you cited are in reference to me defending Josh Allen's place on the Top 100 list.  As is common in many threads on message boards the arguments and debates we have change over time and go into other areas.  That is where we are now and what that post was referencing.  We had moved beyond the topic of whether Josh Allen deserved to be in the Top 100 based on his play last year to a more general topic of how I evaluate players and look at talent.  That's why I included that point on Lamar Jackson vs Josh Allen. 

But of course you understood all that.  And instead of responding to what I actually posted in its totality you took one sentence out of context for cheap likes.  Pretty weak move.

Edited August 5, 2020 by VanS

[VanS]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Guess you can’t be wrong if you always move the goalposts. 

We went from “Allen is the main reason the Bills made the playoffs”, to “Allen is the most important single player on the team”, to “Allen is talented, therefore deserves most of the credit”, and finally to “well, I’m only looking down the road, talent is the biggest indicator of success”. Your original statement was about last year’s playoff push, and now you’re going on about how you only look down the road and that Josh Allen will look good years down the line. 

Actually my argument for Josh Allen being on the Top 100 list is pretty simple.  The players ranked him there and they know better than you or me on who can play and who can't.  PERIOD.  

Everything else has been MY OPINION of Josh Allen's talent level and contribution to the Bills.  You disagreed with my opinion and started posting stats thinking it should change my opinion.  When I tried to explain to you why the stats were irrelevant to my views on this topic you kept going down this road which is how we ultimately got to the post about my overall philosophy when it comes to evaluating players.

If you want to stick to the original topic of this thread then my argument is simple.  Josh Allen is a Top 100 players because the players know better than anybody who can play and who can't.  Everything else is simply me telling ya'll how good I believe Josh Allen is and how over time the objective markers ya'll love to cite when discussing how great an athlete is (i.e. stats and championships) will eventually begin to support my views on him versus folks like you.  Its really that simple. 

I am hitching my wagon to Josh Allen right now when his stock value is relatively low knowing that in the future my high evaluation of his talent level will pay off (similar story with Josh Dobbs).  This is no different than in 2018 when I made a thread arguing that Lamar Jackson should be the 1st overall pick in the 2018 draft if short term success was all you cared about.  Lamar Jackson's stock before the 2018 draft was too low in my eyes for a player with such other-worldly talent.  So I touted him knowing that at some point in the future (i.e. the 2019 season) he would OBJECTIVELY live up to the talent my subjective eye saw from his college tape.  Its the same right now with Josh Allen.  I'm trying to tell ya'll what I am seeing and letting you know despite the numbers not supporting my eye test that I believe my subjective perception is correct and that over time this subjective perception on Josh Allen's ability and contribution will start to show itself in the objective markers you like to focus on.  No different than how Lamar Jackson is currently validating my subjective perception of him before the 2018 draft when I said he was the player most likely to dominate the league early on given his generational athleticism. 

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by VanS

[Breesus mode]

So predictable😆

[Soko]

44 minutes ago, VanS said:

I guess when you can't respond to the actual essense of a post you latch onto one sentence and misrepresent it so you can make an unrelated point.

I’m guessing that - like your opinion on people being stuck on their draft opinions - the irony is lost on you that this is what you’ve been doing for a majority of the thread?

44 minutes ago, VanS said:

I clearly state in the following sentence that I am talking about my philosophy when it comes to player evaluations and projecting success in reference to that sentence.  Obviously THIS THREAD started out being about the NFL Top 100 in 2020.  All those quotes you cited are in reference to me defending Josh Allen's place on the Top 100 list.  As is common in many threads on message boards the arguments and debates we have change over time and go into other areas.  That is where we are now and what that post was referencing.  We had moved beyond the topic of whether Josh Allen deserved to be in the Top 100 based on his play last year to a more general topic of how I evaluate players and look at talent.  That's why I included that point on Lamar Jackson vs Josh Allen. 

Bruh, who was even talking about him as a Top 100 player? You said he was the driving force of a playoff push, that’s what I responded to. 

44 minutes ago, VanS said:

But of course you understood all that.  And instead of responding to what I actually posted in its totality you took one sentence out of context for cheap likes.  Pretty weak move.

During one of your pivots, you started bringing up long term success. Since our debate was about the Bills playoff run last season, naturally I’m going to be confused on why that’s relevant. Not my fault you said what you said. 

28 minutes ago, VanS said:

Actually my argument for Josh Allen being on the Top 100 list is pretty simple.  The players ranked him there and they know better than you or me on who can play and who can't.  PERIOD.  

Lmao. I’ll concede this whole thing if you can find a single post where I said Allen didn’t deserve to be in the Top 100. 

28 minutes ago, VanS said:

Everything else has been MY OPINION of Josh Allen's talent level and contribution to the Bills.  You disagreed with my opinion and started posting stats thinking it should change my opinion.  When I tried to explain to you why the stats were irrelevant to my views on this topic you kept going down this road which is how we ultimately got to the post about my overall philosophy when it comes to evaluating players.

Opinions are free, but that doesn’t mean they’re right. The offense was below league average - that’s not an opinion. The defense was amongst the top units in the league - that’s not an opinion. There’s no defensible opinion where Allen deserves more credit than that defense. You claim the records of what happened (AKA - stats) are irrelevant because, as always, the only way you ever post anything on this board is with your eye test.

Your eye test cannot say that Josh Allen did a good job giving the defense rest, when the defense was factually less rested than most of the league. Your eye test cannot say that Allen did a good job extending drives, when factually the Bills offense did a poor job converting. Your eye test cannot say that Josh Allen deserves the lion’s share of credit for those GWDs, when in every case, the defense or special teams created a turnover after the fact. That’s now how it works. And the weak response, “well, it’s all relative, in fantasy world the other QBs couldn’t have even mustered that offense to be bottom 10”, is once again a sentence without a base. 

28 minutes ago, VanS said:

If you want to stick to the original topic of this thread then my argument is simple.  Josh Allen is a Top 100 players because the players know better than anybody who can play and who can't.  Everything else is simply me telling ya'll how good I believe Josh Allen is and how over time the objective markers ya'll love to cite when discussing how great an athlete is (i.e. stats and championships) will eventually begin to support my views on him versus folks like you.  Its really that simple. 

You made a statement. I responded to your statement. Now you are trying to change that topic again. I used to think you willfully chose to pick and choose what you want to read, but I’m truly beginning to question if it’s a capacity issue. You’re debating yourself at this point. 

[Soko]

28 minutes ago, Breesus mode said:

So predictable😆

- Josh Allen was the leading force of the Bills’ playoff push. 

- QB is the most important position, therefore Allen deserves the credit.

- Allen is talented, therefore he deserves the credit. 

- Allen is talented, and talent is a much bigger indicator of long term success than ____ . 

- Allen is doing more than Lamar Jackson.

- Allen is a Top 100 player. 

The posts have run a marathon at this point.

[Breesus mode]

35 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

- Josh Allen was the leading force of the Bills’ playoff push. 

- QB is the most important position, therefore Allen deserves the credit.

- Allen is talented, therefore he deserves the credit. 

- Allen is talented, and talent is a much bigger indicator of long term success than ____ . 

- Allen is doing more than Lamar Jackson.

- Allen is a Top 100 player. 

The posts have run a marathon at this point.

Vans can never be wrong, HE MUST ALWAYS BE RIGHT.

[ET80]

2 hours ago, VanS said:

Actually my argument for Josh Allen being on the Top 100 list is pretty simple.

No one has been arguing that he doesn't deserve to be on this list. How did you come to this conclusion?

I feel like you're trying to create a Strawman after getting dunked on repeatedly by @Yin-Yang...

(Visual depiction of Yang dunking on you all day long...)

[Archimedes]

11 minutes ago, ET80 said:

No one has been arguing that he doesn't deserve to be on this list. How did you come to this conclusion?

I feel like you're trying to create a Strawman after getting dunked on repeatedly by @Yin-Yang...

(Visual depiction of Yang dunking on you all day long...)

Still the greatest dunk I’ve ever seen

[VanS]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

Opinions are free, but that doesn’t mean they’re right.

True.  That is why I said it'll be long term success that proves me right.  My entire theory regarding this whole thread is circumstances in the short term that are divergent for most players leads to misleading evaluations about how good they are and their contributions to their respective team.  If you read any of my posts regarding Lamar Jackson vs Patrick Mahomes you'll see the same central theory.  Over the long haul however (i.e. an entire career) the circumstances will mostly even out and the true level of talent and impact a player has will reveal itself.

I believe I am right about Josh Allen's ability and impact last year.  Are there absolute metrics that support it?  Probably not.  I'm not a stat nerd so I don't look for that sort of support.  The only reason I even mentioned his penchant for comeback victories last year is because I heard it on a podcast hosted by Mark Sanchez a few weeks ago.  I based my opinion on Josh Allen being the driving force behind the Bills success last year purely from watching his play.

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

You made a statement. I responded to your statement. Now you are trying to change that topic again. I used to think you willfully chose to pick and choose what you want to read, but I’m truly beginning to question if it’s a capacity issue. You’re debating yourself at this point. 

I guess you've now moved onto ad homenim attacks.  Typically when one becomes emotional in a debate its a sign they are losing.

FTR I actually told you exactly what I'm doing in this thread during the portion of my previous post you didn't quote.  I am giving out my opinion and views about a player I feel who is being underrated right now.  Similar to when I called for Lamar Jackson to get 1st overall pick consideration before the 2018 draft based on my opinion he would be the most impactful player from that class IN THE SHORT TERM.  2 years into his pro career and Lamar has done exactly what I thought he would do.

Converesly, I believe Josh Allen is carrying that Buffalo organization on his back right now despite all the numbers you have posted saying otherwise.  I'm using the same philosophy I used when evaluating Lamar Jackson.  We'll see if Josh Allen proves me right over the next few years as the supporting cast around him on offense improves.  

As with Lamar (whose greatness people take for granted now after so many doubts), I have a feeling by the end of this year most will be singing a different tune when it comes to Josh Allen.

[VanS]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

- Allen is doing more than Lamar Jackson.

Never said that.

I've said Lamar Jackson is easily the best player in the NFL right now and would take him over anyone going forward if injuries weren't a factor.  When I mention Lamar vs Allen I'm simply citing my pre-draft opinion regarding the two.  I had Lamar rated as the best QB from that class IN THE SHORT TERM.  I said he would have the most impact early on because the league would have no answer for his athleticism.  Over the long term I would take Josh Allen because I felt his game was more suitable for long term success.

Never said anywhere Allen was doing more than Lamar.  Just like his long term potential a little more.  Right now nobody in the NFL compares to Lamar based on relative impact.  NOBODY. 

[VanS]

31 minutes ago, ET80 said:

No one has been arguing that he doesn't deserve to be on this list. How did you come to this conclusion?

That's what triggered all this.  I didn't just start talking about how good Josh Allen is for no reason.  I was responding to this post that questioned his inclusion on the list. 

:

Man, if Josh Allen really was the 12th best QB last year- we would've won the division and probably advanced to the AFC Championship game. I like that my QB is getting some love, but this is a bizarre list, for sure. I'd say he hoovers around the 20-15 mark.

[Archimedes]

14 minutes ago, VanS said:

I've said Lamar Jackson is easily the best player in the NFL right now

He’s not. He’s not even the best QB in the NFL. There are no fewer than five QBs currently definitively better than him, two of whom play in the same conference as him.

[Breesus mode]

26 minutes ago, VanS said:

I CAN NEVER BE WRONG, NEVAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRR

Fixed

Edited August 5, 2020 by Breesus mode

[Soko]

40 minutes ago, VanS said:

True.  That is why I said it'll be long term success that proves me right. 

No one is talking about Allen long-term. You’re inserting that into this debate for, I assume:

A) You can’t not gush over Allen without his name being mentioned.

B) You aren’t reading what we’re saying, resulting in a massive misinterpretation. 

My conversation with you has started on and will continue to be in regards to Allen’s credit for being the “driving force” of their playoff run. For future reference, I will quote this specifically every time you attempt to change the topic or rope me into a debate you were having with some guy at a bar.

Quote

I believe I am right about Josh Allen's ability and impact last year.  Are there absolute metrics that support it?  Probably not.  I'm not a stat nerd so I don't look for that sort of support.  The only reason I even mentioned his penchant for comeback victories last year is because I heard it on a podcast hosted by Mark Sanchez a few weeks ago.  I based my opinion on Josh Allen being the driving force behind the Bills success last year purely from watching his play.

Exactly. The eye test. You are debating facts with your opinion.

And this isn’t like you’re eye-scouting talent, where two reputable people can legitimately see different things. This isn’t a situation where one back is better than another, but they don’t have the stats to back it up. This is you saying Allen did a good job extending drives and giving the defense rest, when the offense actually struggled doing any of that. Like, in an undebatable way. They were poor in that regard. No amount of “well that’s my OPINION” or eye tests will support that. It’s like calling someone who shot 20% from 3P range a good outside shooter, because that’s what you saw.

Quote

I guess you've now moved onto ad homenim attacks.  Typically when one becomes emotional in a debate its a sign they are losing.

Nah, it’s legitimate. You are accusing people of cutting up your posts to only respond to what’s convenient, when you’ve been doing that for as long as I’ve seen you post. I have questions whether you’re doing okay, bro.

Quote

FTR I actually told you exactly what I'm doing in this thread during the portion of my previous post you didn't quote.  I am giving out my opinion and views about a player I feel who is being underrated right now.  Similar to when I called for Lamar Jackson to get 1st overall pick consideration before the 2018 draft based on my opinion he would be the most impactful player from that class IN THE SHORT TERM.  2 years into his pro career and Lamar has done exactly what I thought he would do.

Yeah, never joined in on that debate. Once again, find me saying Allen isn’t a Top 100 player, if you can (you can’t). 

Quote

Converesly, I believe Josh Allen is carrying that Buffalo organization on his back right now despite all the numbers you have posted saying otherwise.  I'm using the same philosophy I used when evaluating Lamar Jackson.  We'll see if Josh Allen proves me right over the next few years as the supporting cast around him on offense improves.  

Except Lamar Jackson quarterback’d a historically great offense. Josh Allen quarterback’d an offense that struggled converting third downs and scoring points. There’s a massive difference.

You have a great offense and a great defense, you can debate who deserves what kind of credit. But if you have a great defense and a mediocre offense, there’s really no way the QB is going to be the “driving force” of the playoff run. Or at least, you’d have to prove it somehow. Saying “that’s just my opinion” or “that’s what I saw” is a pretty pathetic way of making a point, don’t you think?

Edited August 5, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[ET80]

53 minutes ago, VanS said:

That's what triggered all this

So a person questioning whether or not he's in the top 12 of a list that includes 13 QBs is suddenly asking whether or not he's worthy of Top 100 selection?

And, I don't recall @Yin-Yang (the dude dunking on you with every post) ever arguing this? You said something about how Buffalo doesn't make the playoffs with the #2 defense without Allen? That's the current argument right now?

Mental gymnastics... that's what this is.