NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020

[Soko]

22 minutes ago, VanS said:

1.  No.  You can assign credit now for the past season.  I know I have.  I believe its Josh Allen.  All I'm saying with regard to the increasing time scale in terms of sample size is it'll confirm to me whether my assesment was right or wrong. 

In other words, you have nothing to bring to the table now other than future predictions. Gotcha.

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If Josh Allen becomes the dominant player I suspect he will become over the next couple of years as the talent around him improves then I will take that as confirmation that my assesment of him carrying that team on his back in 2019 was correct.  If he doesn't improve and remains a mediocre player production wise despite the increase in talent around him then I will be wrong in my assesment that he was carrying that franchise on his back and you would be right that he was just an average QB being carried by a supporting cast that I misevaluated.

This here just proves, without a doubt, that you’re willfully choosing not to read the posts in front of you or just not capable of understanding them. Please quote the piece where I stated Allen was just an average QB being carried by a supporting cast. Please do so.

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2. Disagree on the Patriots.  Michel and Edelman are better than any Bills skill position player from last year.  And they have the added benefit of a far superior offensive coordinator in Josh McDaniels.  The O.C. also makes a huge difference.  Its why I included him in all my evaluations of the talent level around Allen.  The other teams didn't make the playoffs.  I said the Bills had BY FAR the worst skill position talent of any playoff team.  If you bring non-playoff teams into the equation then they are near the bottom of the league but I do agree there might be some teams worse than them.  Disagree on the Raiders though.  I would take Josh Jacobs and Darren Waller over any skill position player on the Bills.  Disagree about the Dolphins as well.  Devante Parker was better than any WR on the Bills.  And before he got hurt Preston Williams showed he had star potential.  I'll give you the Jets.  They are as bad or even worse than the Bills.  Its why I haven't given up on Sam Darnold and believe he still has the potential to be a Pro Bowl caliber QB.

NE was worse. Michel has been nearly a bust of a draft pick thus far and if he has a repeat year of 2019, the team will be looking to move on from him. Edelman might be better than Cole Beasley at this point but Sanu wasn’t close to John Brown, who is a great deep threat (keep in mind Sanu and Edelman were never healthy last year).. Both teams had horrid depth. 

Raiders had Jacobs, but I pretty clearly stated “receivers” in regards to LV. You’d probably take Tyrell Williams over Brown or Beasley but Williams couldn’t stay on the field. 

The Phins had Parker, who is undoubtedly the best of the bunch. But after that? Give me Beasley and Brown easily over Wilson and Hurns. Looking at the running back position, you’d take Singletary over Ballage 100/100 times - even if you’re not a big Singletary guy.

Overall, not really defending the Bills’ offense as a talented one. Just pushing back on the notion that they are inept.

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3. I watch Devin Singletary play and am not impressed.  He doesn't have a single trait I consider above average.  He's the definition of average to below average at everything.  Its really that simple.  I watch players and evaluate them based on their skill set. 

Yeah, we’re all aware you make claims with no backing other than eye test, we know. So if Singletary is average or below average at everything, yet still produced well, then obviously the offensive line must be better than you’re giving it credit for? Or Daboll is doing something right? Can’t have it all ways. 

And before you say it, no, Allen doesn’t get credit for that too. Otherwise Gore and all of last year’s backs would’ve been more productive.

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With regard to Daboll I see very little in the way of creativity to get his players easy completitions.  The best offensive coordinators make the game easier for their QB with gimme completions due to scheme.  Bills have very few in the way of gimme completions.  Most of their completions come from their players having to out talent the opposition.  Hence the lack of success by the Bills offense last year when looking at objective measures.

Do you have specific examples of such?

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3.  LOL @ how much you keep catching feelings about what I post.  Once again Sutton and Leonard are the first names that come to mind because I did like them initially.  If you want a guy who I never liked but has been better than I anticipated then look at Calvin Ridley.  He's no star but has been pretty good for the Falcons and I thought he would totally bust.  Then we have Michael Thomas.  He came out before I started posting on here and I thought the best WR from the 2016 was Sterling Shepard and Michael Thomas was an average player at best.  He's been way better despite the fact that I disagree with folks who think he's in the conversation dor best WR in the league.  I thought in 2014 DeVante Parker was the best WR with AJ Green potential.  He's more or less been a bust till this year.  And so on.  WR has been one of my weaker positions BTW which is why these names also come to mind quickly if you are wondering.  I would need to go back through the draft classes if you want even more misses from other position groups. 

Get sensitive if you’d like, I don’t control what you post. If it’s funny, it’s funny. We’re all wrong sometimes, it’s okay.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[Soko]

8 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Running credit card scams, on the other hand...

 

 

Called it almost exactly, I think.

20 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

No, the supporting cast thing only applies when it’s convenient. 

 

20 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

I’m going to guess it’s just something you have to see via the eye test, how much more talented Kamara is, and by end of their careers it’ll be evident.

 

[ET80]

1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said:

In other words, you have nothing to bring to the table now other than future predictions. Gotcha.

This hear just proves, without a doubt, that you’re willfully choosing not to read the posts in front of you or just not capable of understanding them. Please quote the piece where I stated Allen was just an average QB being carried by a supporting cast. Please do so.

NE was worse. Michel has been nearly a bust of a draft pick thus far and if he has a repeat year of 2019, the team will be looking to move on from him. Edelman might be better than Cole Beasley at this point but Sanu wasn’t close to John Brown, who is a great deep threat (keep in mind Sanu and Edelman were never healthy last year).. Both teams had horrid depth. 

Raiders had Jacobs, but I pretty clearly stated “receivers” in regards to LV. You’d probably take Tyrell Williams over Brown or Beasley but Williams couldn’t stay on the field. 

The Phins had Parker, who is undoubtedly the best of the bunch. But after that? Give me Beasley and Brown easily over Wilson and Hurns. Looking at the running back position, you’d take Singletary over Ballage 100/100 times - even if you’re not a big Singletary guy.

Overall, not really defending the Bills’ offense as a talented one. Just pushing back on the notion that they are inept.

Yeah, we’re all aware you make claims with no backing other than eye test, we know. So if Singletary is average or below average at everything, yet still produced well, then obviously the offensive line must be better than you’re giving it credit for? Or Daboll is doing something right? Can’t have it all ways. 

And before you say it, no, Allen doesn’t get credit for that too. Otherwise Gore and all of last year’s backs would’ve been more productive.

Do you have specific examples of such?

Get sensitive if you’d like, I don’t control what you post. If it’s funny, it’s funny. We’re all wrong sometimes, it’s okay.

[ET80]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Kamara's first 2 years combined were better than McCaffrey first 2 years combined

That's simply because Kamara had a better rookie season. In Y2 and Y3, McCaffrey has been the better player, period.

Your mental gymnastics is really showing on this one.

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

That's simply because Kamara had a better rookie season. In Y2 and Y3, McCaffrey has been the better player, period.

Not that I have a dog in this fight, but I disagree.

I think Y2 was quite equal, though if anyone was the superior player it was Kamara. While CMC certainly had the far superior YFS tally, they had similar Y/touch numbers with CMC (6.0) to Kamara’s (5.8), but he put the ball on the ground more (4 fumbles) than Kamara (1 fum) and had far less TD’s produced with 13 TDs to Kamara’s 18 TDs.

All in all PFR provides both players a 16 in approximate value. Which would obviously present a tie, however when doing a deeper dive and looking at Football Outsiders rankings that season Alvin Kamara was ranked as quite a bit superior in both running DYAR (+4 spots) and DVOA (+6 spots) as well as in receiving DYAR (+3 spots) and DVOA (+8 spots).

Then if we consider the difference between Kamara’s 2019 season and CMC’s 2019 season in comparison to the difference between their respective rookie seasons and Kamara certainly has proven to be the superior RB to this point, even if only marginally.

Edited August 7, 2020 by diamondbull424

[VanS]

5 hours ago, ET80 said:

Running credit card scams, on the other hand...

A poor kid who was desperate.  I don't think impersonal crimes like that done for money make someone inherently bad.  It just makes him a product of his circumstance. 

[ET80]

10 minutes ago, VanS said:

A poor kid who was desperate.  I don't think impersonal crimes like that done for money make someone inherently bad.  It just makes him a product of his circumstance. 

No... you're incredibly wrong.

Because others in similar circumstances don't do this on a regular basis... so I'm only left to believe that the person running this scam knows he's doing wrong, but is content in doing so nonetheless.

(Before we continue on this particular subject - understand that I am a Certified Fraud Examiner and Forensic Analyst for a banking/credit union software company. I deal with Credit and Debit card fraud literally every single day. There are maybe 80-100 people on the planet who understand this subject better than me, and I am certain you're not one of them. So, understand - when I say you're wrong, I'm speaking from the position of a Subject Matter Expert. You can argue this point with me about as effectively as you could beat Usain Bolt in a race - your "eye test" doesn't matter on this).

In summation, you're wrong. (And I'm not even going into the sexual assault).

[ET80]

4 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

All in all PFR provides both players a 16 in approximate value. Which would obviously present a tie, however when doing a deeper dive and looking at Football Outsiders rankings that season Alvin Kamara was ranked as quite a bit superior in both running DYAR (+4 spots) and DVOA (+6 spots) as well as in receiving DYAR (+3 spots) and DVOA (+8 spots).

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I've never been a fan of DVOA - regardless of player, regardless of position. I think there are too many instances of bias that throw numbers off. 

This being said, the rest of your statement is pretty solid, but I think we could both concede to a push for 2018. 

Not exactly enough to make the assumption that Kamara is better at EVERYTHING, as others have.

[VanS]

5 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

In other words, you have nothing to bring to the table now other than future predictions. Gotcha.

For people like you who are doubting me then sure.  However, when I'm proven right it will show that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to evaluating players and most nuetral observers will trust the views I put forward in the future.  That's all I'm doing here.  You might be here to debate.  I'm not.  I could care less about getting into a *** for tat back and forth.  I'm simply here to give my views on how I look at football and hopefully some will find it valuable and informative.  Obviously it will take being right to do that which is why I take the stances I take.  Its easy to just talk about what just happened (i.e. look up numbers of past events).  Its another to be able to predict what will happen moving forward by having a central theory for evaluating players like I am doing.

5 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

NE was worse. Michel has been nearly a bust of a draft pick thus far and if he has a repeat year of 2019, the team will be looking to move on from him. Edelman might be better than Cole Beasley at this point but Sanu wasn’t close to John Brown, who is a great deep threat (keep in mind Sanu and Edelman were never healthy last year).. Both teams had horrid depth. 

Raiders had Jacobs, but I pretty clearly stated “receivers” in regards to LV. You’d probably take Tyrell Williams over Brown or Beasley but Williams couldn’t stay on the field. 

The Phins had Parker, who is undoubtedly the best of the bunch. But after that? Give me Beasley and Brown easily over Wilson and Hurns.

Agree to disagree.  I have my views on those players you have yours.  I don't care to convince you to think otherwise.

5 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

So if Singletary is average or below average at everything, yet still produced well, then obviously the offensive line must be better than you’re giving it credit for? Or Daboll is doing something right? Can’t have it all ways. 

And before you say it, no, Allen doesn’t get credit for that too. Otherwise Gore and all of last year’s backs would’ve been more productive.

969 total yards and 4 total TDs is performing well?  Guess we have different definitions for what makes a RB good versus average to below average.  The production was not awful but nothing to really write about.   About average for a starting RB in the NFL.  And RB is the one position in football where guys start their career close to their peak.  I will admit his 5.1 YPC was pretty good.  But you gotta remember Josh Allen's mobility helps the running game similar to how most athletic QBs help the RBs because defenses gotta be honest on those read option plays (which are part of the Bills playbook).  As well as the likelihood of Josh Allen to keep the ball on a bootleg making the weakside defensive end hesistate a bit.  Take Josh Allen's mobility away and the weak side end is crashing on every run play.  Mobile QBs like Josh have a huge effect on their teams run game. 

With regard to Gore, you do know he's nearly 40 years old right?  Obviously the rookie RB with fresh legs is gonna be the most productive RB on the roster.  Just because Singletary was the most productive back on the team doesn't make him good.  Ever heard the saying: "Just cause you're the tallest midget doesn't make you tall."  That's Singletary.  He was the best RB on a roster with no real talent at the position.

5 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Do you have specific examples of such?

So you expect me to go back through the Bills games from last year and give you specific timestamps of their playcalls?  You might have the time to engage in that.  I don't.  

[VanS]

5 hours ago, ET80 said:

That's simply because Kamara had a better rookie season. In Y2 and Y3, McCaffrey has been the better player, period.

1592 total yards (5.8 yards per touch) and 18 total TDs vs 1965 total yards (6.0 yards per touch) and 13 total TDs

I would argue Kamara's year 2 was just as impressive.  He scored more TDs while McCaffrey had slightly more production per touch.  Kamara sharing a backfield with Mark Ingram in 2018 played a part.  Also Alvin made the Pro Bowl while McCaffrey didn't so there is that factor.  I would take Year 2 Kamara over Year 2 McCaffrey but if you think otherwise that's acceptable cause McCaffrey had a great season as well.  

Year 3 was injury riddled for Alvin.  As far as I know McCaffrey was healthy his rookie year so his poor production that year has no excuse. 

[ET80]

2 minutes ago, VanS said:

Year 3 was injury riddled for Alvin.  As far as I know McCaffrey was healthy his rookie year so his poor production that year has no excuse. 

McCaffrey had back and foot injuries in 2019. He didn't produce as poorly as Kamara...

[VanS]

20 minutes ago, ET80 said:

No... you're incredibly wrong.

Because others in similar circumstances don't do this on a regular basis... so I'm only left to believe that the person running this scam knows he's doing wrong, but is content in doing so nonetheless.

(Before we continue on this particular subject - understand that I am a Certified Fraud Examiner and Forensic Analyst for a banking/credit union software company. I deal with Credit and Debit card fraud literally every single day. There are maybe 80-100 people on the planet who understand this subject better than me, and I am certain you're not one of them. So, understand - when I say you're wrong, I'm speaking from the position of a Subject Matter Expert. You can argue this point with me about as effectively as you could beat Usain Bolt in a race - your "eye test" doesn't matter on this).

In summation, you're wrong. (And I'm not even going into the sexual assault).

Not everyone is strong enough to overcome their enviroment.  You might know scams.  Cool.  I know what its like to grow up in the sort of enviroment Antonio Callaway grew up in.  I was able to overcome it but just because others couldn't doesn't mean I'm gonna judge them as being inherently bad.  I'm not talking about credit card scams.  I'm talking specifically about young black men who grew up in the sort of enviroment Antonio Callaway did who feel they gotta do non-violent crime to get by.  I don't categorize those young black men as inherently bad simply because they weren't able to overcome their circumstances like some of us could. 

With that said, I will never excuse violent crime.  So if Callaway raped a girl then he is a reprehensible person.  I simply don't believe he raped anyone.  And the University of Florida didn't either when they did their investigation.  He was simply accused on rape.  Being accused of a crime doesn't make you guilty.

[VanS]

13 minutes ago, ET80 said:

McCaffrey had back and foot injuries in 2019. He didn't produce as poorly as Kamara...

Cool.  Guess he's tougher than Alvin.  That doesn't make him better.  

I'll take a fully healthy Alvin Kamara over every RB in the NFL not named Saquon Barkley. 

[Soko]

Just now, VanS said:

For people like you who are doubting me then sure.  However, when I'm proven right it will show that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to evaluating players and most nuetral observers will trust the views I put forward in the future.  That's all I'm doing here.  You might be here to debate.  I'm not.  I could care less about getting into a *** for tat back and forth.  I'm simply here to give my views on how I look at football and hopefully some will find it valuable and informative.  Obviously it will take being right to do that which is why I take the stances I take.  Its easy to just talk about what just happened (i.e. look up numbers of past events).  Its another to be able to predict what will happen moving forward by having a central theory for evaluating players like I am doing.

More clarification: so you’re saying you come to a football forum on the Internet to post your predictions and don’t care  to debate them (or rather, can’t) if there’s any pushback? That makes a lot more sense, it explains why you haven’t done anything with substance yet.

Fact of the matter is, we don’t need to wait any period of time to talk about what happened last season. What happened in 2019 will be the same whether we look at it in 2020 or in 2030. It’s not going to change. But this was a decent pivot attempt. 

Were the 2019-2020 Buffalo Bills anything but bad at converting third downs? Nope. Were they anything but bad at getting firsts? Nope. At extending drives? Nope. At converting drives to points? Nope. At owning the time of possession? Nope. Yet for some reason, there’s a claim out there that says Allen was doing all of those things well. And not only that, but the elite defense needed that in order to be able to perform at that level. Only here can a bottom 10 (at...everything) efficiency offense be given credit for, not just a “good job”, but for a playoff appearance where the defense was clearly the dominant unit. The HC? Barely a token response. The OC who led this apparent talentless unit to being so good at being efficient and giving the defense rest? Well, he’s actually poorly, with no examples to show for it. Only the QB deserves good credit for being bad. Only here.

Just now, VanS said:

Agree to disagree.  I have my views on those players you have yours.  I don't care to convince you to think otherwise.

Correct, agree to disagree. Was mostly moot anyway since I agreed that the Bills weren’t a particularly talented offense.

Just now, VanS said:

969 total yards and 4 total TDs is performing well?

Sigh. Do I really need to pull up how many times you said stats don’t matter? Does your hypocrisy know no bounds?!

Maybe my eye test says he performed well? Maybe he actually gets a boost for playing with WRs that are “poor”, an offensive line that is “poor”, an OC that is “poor”, and a QB that’s hardly known for his accuracy that has nearly as many fumbles as he does pass TDs? In fact, if the offense is so good at converting and chewing clock (it isn’t, factually) then Singletary ought to get credit for that too. By your logic, anyway.

Just now, VanS said:

 Guess we have different definitions for what makes a RB good versus average to below average.  The production was not awful but nothing to really write about.   About average for a starting RB in the NFL.  And RB is the one position in football where guys start their career close to their peak.  I will admit his 5.1 YPC was pretty good.  But you gotta remember Josh Allen's mobility helps the running game similar to how most athletic QBs help the RBs because defenses gotta be honest on those read option plays (which are part of the Bills playbook).  As well as the likelihood of Josh Allen to keep the ball on a bootleg making the weakside defensive end hesistate a bit.  Take Josh Allen's mobility away and the weak side end is crashing on every run play.  Mobile QBs like Josh have a huge effect on their teams run game. 

Once again, didn’t bother to read what’s right in front of you. Or couldn’t. 

Yes, mobile QBs in the right systems can help rushers. But if Allen is really helping the run game so much, why didn’t Frank Gore have as much success (was much more efficient just a year prior on a much worse Miami squad)? Or Shady McCoy (became more efficient after leaving Buffalo)? Or Chris Ivory (had the least efficient year of his career in Buffalo)? If Allen is benefitting the running game, it should be across the board, not just for Singletary. And if Allen’s put in place to use his mobility, then Daboll can’t be all that bad, can he? 

Just now, VanS said:

With regard to Gore, you do know he's nearly 40 years old right?  Obviously the rookie RB with fresh legs is gonna be the most productive RB on the roster.  Just because Singletary was the most productive back on the team doesn't make him good.  Ever heard the saying: "Just cause you're the tallest midget doesn't make you tall."  That's Singletary.  He was the best RB on a roster with no real talent at the position.

Weird how nearly-40-year-old Gore was somehow much more efficient behind a worse line just last season. You know what they say, that 36-to-37 cliff comes at you fast! 

Just now, VanS said:

So you expect me to go back through the Bills games from last year and give you specific timestamps of their playcalls?  You might have the time to engage in that.  I don't.  

I expect you to be able to cite maybe a couple calls from a game or two? I figure if you’re willing to say something like that it isn’t outlandish to, I don’t know, maybe provide substance or something. If you can’t, it’s NBD. Trust me, my expectations weren’t that high. 

Also, still waiting for that quote where I said Allen was an average QB being carried by his team, although I’ll be patient since I know something that doesn’t exist is probably hard to find - especially amongst all that drivel.

[ET80]

7 minutes ago, VanS said:

Not everyone is strong enough to overcome their enviroment.  You might know scams.  Cool.  I know what its like to grow up in the sort of enviroment Antonio Callaway grew up in.

It's so much more than "knowing scams". It's understanding psychological criminal profiles, understanding the risk/reward function of people who commit these sorts of crime, and the risk of recidivism with these individuals.

Trying to play the "product of environment" card is a slap in the face of those who worked their way out of their situation without resorting to crime - violent or non-violent.

10 minutes ago, VanS said:

With that said, I will never excuse violent crime.  So if Callaway raped a girl then he is a reprehensible person.  I simply don't believe he raped anyone.  And the University of Florida didn't either when they did their investigation. 

That investigation was about as credible as the one FSU conducted for Jameis Winston - which is to say it wasn't. The prosecutor was a former UF Student athlete and a major UF booster, so you know he wasn't exactly looking to get to the truth.

If you think there was an investigation, you're really doing some mental backflips on this one.