NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020

[VanS]

52 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

More clarification: so you’re saying you come to a football forum on the Internet to post your predictions and don’t care  to debate them (or rather, can’t) if there’s any pushback? That makes a lot more sense, it explains why you haven’t done anything with substance yet.

Debates are for those who care to convince others of their views.  I could care less if anyone else agrees me.  I simply say what I believe to be true and hope that information can be informative to others.  That's why I keep saying I'll just let the future decide if I'm right or wrong.  I could care less about trying to convince you in the interim.

52 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Sigh. Do I really need to pull up how many times you said stats don’t matter? Does your hypocrisy know no bounds?!

Maybe my eye test says he performed well? Maybe he actually gets a boost for playing with WRs that are “poor”, an offensive line that is “poor”, an OC that is “poor”, and a QB that’s hardly known for his accuracy that has nearly as many fumbles as he does pass TDs? In fact, if the offense is so good at converting and chewing clock (it isn’t, factually) then Singletary ought to get credit for that too. By your logic, anyway.

I cited those stats for your benefit not mine.  You were the one that brought up his production.  I simply said he never impressed me while watching him play.  I didn't know what numbers he put up until I read you statement touting his production.  Once I saw his production I realized we must have different opinion on what makes for impressive production at the RB position.

If you are simply arguing that your eye test finds Devin Singletary to be a RB that is better than average then cool.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.  As with my earlier points, we'll see who is right over time.  If Singletary is a good RB then his production should increase over time as the circumstances around him change (i.e. the Bills o-line and passing game improves).  However, if he is average as I suspect then over his career we will see more or less average production.  This is why I said earlier it will take time to see who is right when evaluating players using the eye test.

52 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Yes, mobile QBs in the right systems can help rushers. But if Allen is really helping the run game so much, why didn’t Frank Gore have as much success (was much more efficient just a year prior on a much worse Miami squad)? Or Shady McCoy (became more efficient after leaving Buffalo)? Or Chris Ivory (had the least efficient year of his career in Buffalo)? If Allen is benefitting the running game, it should be across the board, not just for Singletary. And if Allen’s put in place to use his mobility, then Daboll can’t be all that bad, can he? 

Weird how nearly-40-year-old Gore was somehow much more efficient behind a worse line just last season. You know what they say, that 36-to-37 cliff comes at you fast! 

Year to year comparisons are too variable to make any sort of conclusion.  Same with team to team.  For your theory to be right that Josh Allen's mobility didn't play a part in Singletary's success, we would need a decent sample size of games from last season where Josh Allen wasn't the starter to make a fair comparison.  That didn't happen so we have nothing to go on other than the historical precedent of how much athletic QBs help their running game.  Josh Allen had the most rushing TDs of any QB in the league last year (even ahead of the great Lamar Jackson) so there is no doubting his skills as a runner.  I think anyone who knows anything about football understands he makes an impact on the running game.

52 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

I expect you to be able to cite maybe a couple calls from a game or two? I figure if you’re willing to say something like that it isn’t outlandish to, I don’t know, maybe provide substance or something. If you can’t, it’s NBD. Trust me, my expectations weren’t that high. 

Also, still waiting for that quote where I said Allen was an average QB being carried by his team, although I’ll be patient since I know something that doesn’t exist is probably hard to find - especially amongst all that drivel.

What would a few plays from a game or two prove?  The point about Daboll being a poor coordinator comes from watching the season as a whole.  I know you think I have some a priori fascination with Josh Allen and am just trying to defend him.  If Daboll impressed me I would say so.  I just have never been impressed with him even going back to his Alabama days.  It shocked me when I heard he got an NFL job. 

With regard to your final point.  No.  You never said Allen is an average QB being carried by his team.  That was more of me putting words in your mouth given the jist of your criticisms in this thread.  You haven't said anything declarative about Allen but everything you argue implies you don't think he's very good.  

Edited August 8, 2020 by VanS

[VanS]

48 minutes ago, ET80 said:

It's so much more than "knowing scams". It's understanding psychological criminal profiles, understanding the risk/reward function of people who commit these sorts of crime, and the risk of recidivism with these individuals.

Trying to play the "product of environment" card is a slap in the face of those who worked their way out of their situation without resorting to crime - violent or non-violent.

That investigation was about as credible as the one FSU conducted for Jameis Winston - which is to say it wasn't. The prosecutor was a former UF Student athlete and a major UF booster, so you know he wasn't exactly looking to get to the truth.

If you think there was an investigation, you're really doing some mental backflips on this one. 

We'll just have to agree to disagree.  I'm not interesed in getting into a debate on crime and morality with you.  TO ME the credit card scam Callaway allegedly took part in doesn't make him a bad person.  Now that is just my opinion.  Others are free to disagree.

With regard to the rape allegation, my response to your post regarding Jameis Winston and alleged sham investigation would get into issues of race.  And I know how this site is with race discussion so I suggest we just drop the rape talk all together. 

 

[JAF-N72EX]

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Not everyone is strong enough to overcome their enviroment.  You might know scams.  Cool.  I know what its like to grow up in the sort of enviroment Antonio Callaway grew up in.

It's so much more than "knowing scams". It's understanding psychological criminal profiles, understanding the risk/reward function of people who commit these sorts of crime, and the risk of recidivism with these individuals.

Trying to play the "product of environment" card is a slap in the face of those who worked their way out of their situation without resorting to crime - violent or non-violent.

. I don't wanna get into your guys' convo here but I will say that I can personally support this. 

[Soko]

5 hours ago, VanS said:

Debates are for those who care to convince others of their views.  I could care less if anyone else agrees me.  I simply say what I believe to be true and hope that information can be informative to others.  That's why I keep saying I'll just let the future decide if I'm right or wrong.  I could care less about trying to convince you in the interim.

Could care less, so you do care? 😉

Really though, simple yes or no: you come to the online football forum to say whatever you like, and if anyone questions that, you don’t care? 

Better yet, why would anyone care about anything “informative” you have to say with no evidence, base, proof, reason, or examples? Hard to have any intellectual conversation with that, don’t you think?

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I cited those stats for your benefit not mine.  You were the one that brought up his production.  I simply said he never impressed me while watching him play.  I didn't know what numbers he put up until I read you statement touting his production.  Once I saw his production I realized we must have different opinion on what makes for impressive production at the RB position.

If I use your logic, I could just say I’m not comparing his production “relative to the league”. I’m looking at it “outside of a vacuum”. He had good production with great efficiency with “poor” receivers that couldn’t unload the box. With a “poor” offensive line that wasn’t giving him enough help. With a QB that couldn’t competently extend drives and loved to put the football on the ground. With an OC who was “poor” and didn’t know how to use him right.

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If you are simply arguing that your eye test finds Devin Singletary to be a RB that is better than average then cool.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.  As with my earlier points, we'll see who is right over time.  If Singletary is a good RB then his production should increase over time as the circumstances around him change (i.e. the Bills o-line and passing game improves).  However, if he is average as I suspect then over his career we will see more or less average production.  This is why I said earlier it will take time to see who is right when evaluating players using the eye test.

Singletary’s production can dip or skyrocket, it doesn’t matter. His rookie season was his rookie season. You seem to be under the impression that if he falls as a player, that shows he was a poor running back as a rookie. That is not the case. Stevan Ridley was a player that had a very productive year in NE and then never came close to that again. That does not mean he wasn’t a good or productive player in that given season.

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Year to year comparisons are too variable to make any sort of conclusion.  Same with team to team.  For your theory to be right that Josh Allen's mobility didn't play a part in Singletary's success, we would need a decent sample size of games from last season where Josh Allen wasn't the starter to make a fair comparison.  That didn't happen so we have nothing to go on other than the historical precedent of how much athletic QBs help their running game.  Josh Allen had the most rushing TDs of any QB in the league last year (even ahead of the great Lamar Jackson) so there is no doubting his skills as a runner.  I think anyone who knows anything about football understands he makes an impact on the running game.

An impact, but only for Singletary? Like, the impact magically disappears when any other running back and then reappears with Singletary on the field? Riiiight...

Again, you don’t need years of watching a guy play to comment on him for one given season.

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What would a few plays from a game or two prove?  The point about Daboll being a poor coordinator comes from watching the season as a whole.  I know you think I have some a priori fascination with Josh Allen and am just trying to defend him.  If Daboll impressed me I would say so.  I just have never been impressed with him even going back to his Alabama days.  It shocked me when I heard he got an NFL job. 

I don’t care about what he did at Alabama. I want to know if you have anything of substance to bring to this discussion. You’ve already said you’re only interested in being content with “that’s my opinion and if you disagree idc”, so I’m giving you an opportunity to bring something to the table. We’re all fans here, some more knowledgeable than others (I certainly fall low on the list of smart guys around here), but seriously what’s more worthless on an INTERNET FORUM than an opinion with nothing to back it? This isn’t favorite ice cream flavors, you’re making claims on things that happened in the past and when you received push back, just say you don’t care? The hell’s the point then?

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With regard to your final point.  No.  You never said Allen is an average QB being carried by his team.  That was more of me putting words in your mouth given the jist of your criticisms in this thread.  You haven't said anything declarative about Allen but everything you argue implies you don't think he's very good.  

THANK YOU. And I mean that with no sarcasm. 

My argument implies that, I think less of Allen than I do the Bills defense, as far as last season’s playoff run goes. I don’t see any evidence anecdotal or otherwise that’d support the opposite POV. Maybe that changes next season? Maybe in 3 seasons from now? Maybe the offense becomes a juggernaut and Allen becomes a less turnover prone Brett Favre. That’s all fine and good, I have no comment on that. But what happens in the future does not change what’s happened in the past. The defense was the driving force of that team and has been for years now, it was during Tyrod’s run too (much more run heavy as well). 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[ET80]

7 hours ago, VanS said:

TO ME the credit card scam Callaway allegedly took part in doesn't make him a bad person

(Not allegedly. He did).

TO YOU, uninformed on the underlying logic on credit/debit card fraud... sure, it doesn't make him a bad person.

TO ME, an expert on the subject - well, I wouldn't be bringing it up if the data didn't agree with my point.

Do you fully grasp what he did? They didn't just grab a wallet and charge up cards from somebody, they bought a cards list from the Dark Web - cards that were stolen from merchant breaches (Target, Home Depot, Chik Fil A) and they went shopping... not for milk and bread to feed their families, but iPads and Beats headphones. You don't buy those card lists from anyone, either; Odds are they bought those lists from a North Korean hacker or Eastern European hackers - not exactly the most honorable people, people who are going to use those proceeds to literally kill other people. But, I'm sure Callaway would have totes not done it if he knew who was selling these lists.

Identity Theft is the largest growing crime in the world, with 33% of Americans having an instance of it over the past five years. On average, it takes a consumer about six months to a year to get their financial situation back on track (if they ever get on track). These aren't "1%" people either - they're normal, middle class people who may or may not have the resources to recover from this. People have lost everything from these sort of crimes - literally everything.

So for you to say "it's not a big deal" is the height of "real world" ignorance - it tells me you're under 18 years old, or you never owned a Credit or Debit card. If you want to make light of Identity Theft and Credit Card fraud so you can defend your scouting report on a football player, it tells me your eye test for the real world is just as flawed as your eye test for football. 

Now... hopefully you learned something today. If not, that's on you. I fought the good fight, IMO... and I'm done engaging you on this subject. My only contribution in this topic with regards to you is to post dunk gifs every time @Yin-Yang throws your posts down.

[Scoundrel]

2 hours ago, ET80 said:

(Not allegedly. He did).

TO YOU, uninformed on the underlying logic on credit/debit card fraud... sure, it doesn't make him a bad person.

TO ME, an expert on the subject - well, I wouldn't be bringing it up if the data didn't agree with my point.

Do you fully grasp what he did? They didn't just grab a wallet and charge up cards from somebody, that bought cards from the Dark Web - cards that were stolen from merchant breaches (Target, Home Depot, Chik Fil A) and they we t shopping... not for milk and bread to feed their families, but iPads and Beats headphones. You don't buy those card lists from anyone, either; Odds are they bought those lists from a North Korean hacker or Eastern European hackers - not exactly the most honorable people, people who are going to use those proceeds to literally kill other people. But, I'm sure Callaway would have totes not done it if he knew who was selling these lists.

Identity Theft is the largest growing crime in the world, with 33% of Americans having an instance of it over the past five years. On average, it takes a consumer about six months to a year to get their financial situation back on track (if they ever get on track). These aren't "1%" people either - they're normal, middle class people who may or may not have the resources to recover from this. People have lost everything from these sort of crimes - literally everything.

So for you to say "it's not a big deal" is the height of real world ignorance - it tells me you're under 18 m, you never owned a Credit or Debit card. If you want to make light of Identity Theft and Credit Card fraud so you can defend your scouting report on a football player, it tells me your eye test for the real world is just as flawed as your eye test for football. 

Now... hopefully you learned something today. If not, that's on you. I fought the good fight, IMO... and I'm done engaging you on this subject. My only contribution in this topic with regards to you is to post dunk gifs every time @Yin-Yang throws your posts down.

 

So much this. So freaking much this. 
 

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, ET80 said:

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I've never been a fan of DVOA - regardless of player, regardless of position. I think there are too many instances of bias that throw numbers off. 

This being said, the rest of your statement is pretty solid, but I think we could both concede to a push for 2018. 

Not exactly enough to make the assumption that Kamara is better at EVERYTHING, as others have.

Absolutely agree that its very close. I think the fact that CMC plays in a talent depressed wasteland does influence these matters some. I can’t say I’ve personally watched enough of these guys over the last three years to determine a better player. I think all in all, they’re pretty much a push. They both have similar offensive versatility. Kamara appears to have superior contact balance and leg drive, he’s more slippery in his move set, however CMC is more explosive and fast, I also feel he presents the superior hands. I’d probably need to resort to analyzing something like their pass blocking ability to find something minuscule enough to differentiate them and find the superior player.

[Hunter2_1]

I do have to give credit to Van's resilience. To get constantly beaten down and keep coming back is a pretty admirable trait. He's like the running back who averages 3 ypc but just keeps on coming.

[ET80]

2 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

I think all in all, they’re pretty much a push.

I'll buy this all day, every day. I'll concede this as well, I enjoy both equally. I'll admit that I like McCaffrey better - he's done more with less, all things considered. Doesn't mean that I don't like Kamara.

[ET80]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Could care less, so you do care? 😉

That's a dunk on this alone.

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Could care less, so you do care? 😉

Really though, simple yes or no: you come to the online football forum to say whatever you like, and if anyone questions that, you don’t care? 

Better yet, why would anyone care about anything “informative” you have to say with no evidence, base, proof, reason, or examples? Hard to have any intellectual conversation with that, don’t you think?

If I use your logic, I could just say I’m not comparing his production “relative to the league”. I’m looking at it “outside of a vacuum”. He had good production with great efficiency with “poor” receivers that couldn’t unload the box. With a “poor” offensive line that wasn’t giving him enough help. With a QB that couldn’t competently extend drives and loved to put the football on the ground. With an OC who was “poor” and didn’t know how to use him right.

Singletary’s production can dip or skyrocket, it doesn’t matter. His rookie season was his rookie season. You seem to be under the impression that if he falls as a player, that shows he was a poor running back as a rookie. That is not the case. Stevan Ridley was a player that had a very productive year in NE and then never came close to that again. That does not mean he wasn’t a good or productive player in that given season.

An impact, but only for Singletary? Like, the impact magically disappears when any other running back and then reappears with Singletary on the field? Riiiight...

Again, you don’t need years of watching a guy play to comment on him for one given season.

I don’t care about what he did at Alabama. I want to know if you have anything of substance to bring to this discussion. You’ve already said you’re only interested in being content with “that’s my opinion and if you disagree idc”, so I’m giving you an opportunity to bring something to the table. We’re all fans here, some more knowledgeable than others (I certainly fall low on the list of smart guys around here), but seriously what’s more worthless on an INTERNET FORUM than an opinion with nothing to back it? This isn’t favorite ice cream flavors, you’re making claims on things that happened in the past and when you received push back, just say you don’t care? The hell’s the point then?

THANK YOU. And I mean that with no sarcasm. 

My argument implies that, I think less of Allen than I do the Bills defense, as far as last season’s playoff run goes. I don’t see any evidence anecdotal or otherwise that’d support the opposite POV. Maybe that changes next season? Maybe in 3 seasons from now? Maybe the offense becomes a juggernaut and Allen becomes a less turnover prone Brett Favre. That’s all fine and good, I have no comment on that. But what happens in the future does not change what’s happened in the past. The defense was the driving force of that team and has been for years now, it was during Tyrod’s run too (much more run heavy as well). 

[Joe_is_the_best]

11 hours ago, ET80 said:

(Not allegedly. He did).

TO YOU, uninformed on the underlying logic on credit/debit card fraud... sure, it doesn't make him a bad person.

TO ME, an expert on the subject - well, I wouldn't be bringing it up if the data didn't agree with my point.

Do you fully grasp what he did? They didn't just grab a wallet and charge up cards from somebody, they bought a cards list from the Dark Web - cards that were stolen from merchant breaches (Target, Home Depot, Chik Fil A) and they went shopping... not for milk and bread to feed their families, but iPads and Beats headphones. You don't buy those card lists from anyone, either; Odds are they bought those lists from a North Korean hacker or Eastern European hackers - not exactly the most honorable people, people who are going to use those proceeds to literally kill other people. But, I'm sure Callaway would have totes not done it if he knew who was selling these lists.

Identity Theft is the largest growing crime in the world, with 33% of Americans having an instance of it over the past five years. On average, it takes a consumer about six months to a year to get their financial situation back on track (if they ever get on track). These aren't "1%" people either - they're normal, middle class people who may or may not have the resources to recover from this. People have lost everything from these sort of crimes - literally everything.

So for you to say "it's not a big deal" is the height of "real world" ignorance - it tells me you're under 18 years old, or you never owned a Credit or Debit card. If you want to make light of Identity Theft and Credit Card fraud so you can defend your scouting report on a football player, it tells me your eye test for the real world is just as flawed as your eye test for football. 

Now... hopefully you learned something today. If not, that's on you. I fought the good fight, IMO... and I'm done engaging you on this subject. My only contribution in this topic with regards to you is to post dunk gifs every time @Yin-Yang throws your posts down.

[VanS]

17 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Could care less, so you do care? 😉

Really though, simple yes or no: you come to the online football forum to say whatever you like, and if anyone questions that, you don’t care?

Better yet, why would anyone care about anything “informative” you have to say with no evidence, base, proof, reason, or examples? Hard to have any intellectual conversation with that, don’t you think?

Pretty much.  The sort of people who care what others think of them don't have a strong sense of self so they look for outside validation.  You see that in today's social media era with how most people behave.  They put their life online in desperate need of the validation of others.  I have a strong sense of self.  I know why I believe what I believe.  I think about things through introspection and self reflection.  I don't come to online discussions like this to "debate" or have my views validated.  When you have a strong sense of self you don't really care what others think of you or your views.

As I said earlier, I post on this site (and others) so that my views could potentially be helpful and informative to others.  I believe the way I evaluate players is right and am trying to shift the discussion around sports from the backward looking analytics approach that is popular now towards the more traditional eye test approach.  

17 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

If I use your logic, I could just say I’m not comparing his production “relative to the league”. I’m looking at it “outside of a vacuum”. He had good production with great efficiency with “poor” receivers that couldn’t unload the box. With a “poor” offensive line that wasn’t giving him enough help. With a QB that couldn’t competently extend drives and loved to put the football on the ground. With an OC who was “poor” and didn’t know how to use him right.

Cool.  We'll see over time who is right.  I believe Josh Allen's ability to threaten the defense with his legs helped Singletary more than any other factor.  You believe otherwise.  We shall see over time who is right after the circumstances around them change.  The thing about differences in the eye test is the only way to know which view is right is time.  Because over time we will see other RBs play with Josh Allen and potentially see Singletary play with other QBs.  If Singletary continues to produce at the same level in other situations his skill level will be validated.  If he doesn't and if other RBs prosper next to Josh Allen we will know he was the driving force behind Singletary's average rookie season. 

17 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Singletary’s production can dip or skyrocket, it doesn’t matter. His rookie season was his rookie season. You seem to be under the impression that if he falls as a player, that shows he was a poor running back as a rookie. That is not the case. Stevan Ridley was a player that had a very productive year in NE and then never came close to that again. That does not mean he wasn’t a good or productive player in that given season.

If you simply want to discuss who had a good production in the past or who didn't without focusing on the circumstances that gave rise to that production then go ahead.  I really don't care for that.  To me its pointless.  I'd rather discuss how good a player really is and if they are the driving force behind their team's success or not.  Stevan Ridley's time in New England showed he was a product of that system and that his raw talent as a RB wasn't as good as he showed when he played for a great coach in a great scheme.

You can celebrate Devin Singletary's rookie year regardless of what his future holds.  However, I will base my determination on how good of a player he really was based on his whole body of work not just one season or another.  

17 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

An impact, but only for Singletary? Like, the impact magically disappears when any other running back and then reappears with Singletary on the field? Riiiight...

No.  He impacted all the other RBs as well.  They just were just far inferior to Singletary last year which is why they weren't able to take advantage the way he did.  Being the best RB in a bad RB room doesn't make you great.  It just means you're better than your competition that wasn't that good to start with.

We'll see this year how good Singletary is with Zack Moss joining the RB room.  I actually like Moss as a RB.   That should provide a better comparison point than a 36 year old Frank Gore.

17 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Again, you don’t need years of watching a guy play to comment on him for one given season.

Yes we do if we have different views regarding the real reasons behind the player in question success.  If I think Josh Allen is helping Singletary more than Singletary's talent carrying him to success then we will need time and changes in circumstances to know who is right.

Think of it in the context of the Brady vs Belichick debate that has been raging for years.  We all know they won 6 titles together but people argue over who was the driving force behind the Patriots dynasty.  Is Belichick the driving force or did Brady make Belichick?  Their breakup gives us a small chance at maybe getting some clarity.  Lets say Brady wins the Super Bowl this year and Belichick misses the playoffs.  This gives Brady's legacy a huge boost and downgrades Belichick because it gives fuel to the opinion that it was Brady not Belichick that made the Patriots dynasty.  If the reverse were to occur and Belichick wins a Super Bowl post-Brady with some other QB then it boosts his legacy as the driving force behind the Patriots dynasty.  If neither has success apart from the other then it gives favor to the view they needed each other.   So you see the future can inform us of the past and vice-versa.  

17 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

I don’t care about what he did at Alabama. I want to know if you have anything of substance to bring to this discussion. You’ve already said you’re only interested in being content with “that’s my opinion and if you disagree idc”, so I’m giving you an opportunity to bring something to the table. We’re all fans here, some more knowledgeable than others (I certainly fall low on the list of smart guys around here), but seriously what’s more worthless on an INTERNET FORUM than an opinion with nothing to back it? This isn’t favorite ice cream flavors, you’re making claims on things that happened in the past and when you received push back, just say you don’t care? The hell’s the point then?

Daboll's time in Alabama matters to me just as Lamar Jackson's time in college matters to me in comparison to Patrick Mahomes.  I like to use every piece of information about a person to get to an accurate view about them.  

Once again I don't have the time or interest to go back through the Bills games from last year to give you specific examples of Daboll's playcalling.  Just like I'm not going to give you examples of specific runs that didn't impress me about Singletary.  I'm telling you my overall opinion from watching a selection of games last year from the Bills.  The only things about the Bills offense that impressed me last year was Josh Allen, John Brown (to a lesser degree), and that rookie TE from Ole Miss.  The coaching and playcalling on offense didn't impress me.  Neither did Singletary, the o-line, and other pass catchers.  If you want specifics to support these opinions find someone else.  Convincing you isn't really that important to me.

17 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

My argument implies that, I think less of Allen than I do the Bills defense, as far as last season’s playoff run goes. I don’t see any evidence anecdotal or otherwise that’d support the opposite POV. Maybe that changes next season? Maybe in 3 seasons from now? Maybe the offense becomes a juggernaut and Allen becomes a less turnover prone Brett Favre. That’s all fine and good, I have no comment on that. But what happens in the future does not change what’s happened in the past. The defense was the driving force of that team and has been for years now, it was during Tyrod’s run too (much more run heavy as well). 

The future informs us of the past and vice-versa.  Refer back to my point about Belichick vs Brady and who was the driving force behind their dynasty.

If Brady wins without Belichick and Belichick struggles to win without Brady then Tom Brady will prove he was the driving force behind the Patriots dynasty despite the fact some of the Super Bowls (i.e. 2001) were won with the Patriots defense being more dominant than the offense.  I'm making a similar argument with Josh Allen.  As the Bills improve the pieces around him he will prove he is a dominant player and the driving force behind their rise to becoming a great team even in 2019 when the defense was more dominant than the offense.  

Edited August 8, 2020 by VanS

[Soko]

2 hours ago, VanS said:

Pretty much. 

Should probably consider writing a blog or something. Guess I can’t speak for everyone but it’s my understanding that we discuss things around here. Baseless opinions? Hard to take serious.

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As I said earlier, I post on this site (and others) so that my views could potentially be helpful and informative to others. 

Awww thank you for educating us. 

*crickets*

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Cool.  We'll see over time who is right.  I believe Josh Allen's ability to threaten the defense with his legs helped Singletary more than any other factor.  You believe otherwise.  We shall see over time who is right after the circumstances around them change.  The thing about differences in the eye test is the only way to know which view is right is time.  Because over time we will see other RBs play with Josh Allen and potentially see Singletary play with other QBs.  If Singletary continues to produce at the same level in other situations his skill level will be validated.  If he doesn't and if other RBs prosper next to Josh Allen we will know he was the driving force behind Singletary's average rookie season. 

Nah, we don’t have to wait. We already saw Ivory, Gore, and McCoy do better outside of Buffalo than they did as a Bill with Allen. Small sample size maybe, but there’s certainly more evidence that Allen doesn’t do jack for the runners (3/4) than there is evidence that he does (1/4).

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If you simply want to discuss who had a good production in the past or who didn't without focusing on the circumstances that gave rise to that production then go ahead.  I really don't care for that.  To me its pointless.  I'd rather discuss how good a player really is and if they are the driving force behind their team's success or not.  Stevan Ridley's time in New England showed he was a product of that system and that his raw talent as a RB wasn't as good as he showed when he played for a great coach in a great scheme.

LOL. So you’re going boast about being the only one smart enough to look at context and educate us here on the forum, but then come out and say that NE had a great running scheme? How was that great scheme when it was BJGE in 2011 with the brunt of the carries? Where’d that scheme go in the following years? Where was BB and that McDaniels running scheme the last season when they couldn’t move the ball on the ground? 

Every time you try and talk out of your other end, you just make another ignorant comment. First it was Josh Allen and that great job he did converting/extending drives. Now it’s Stevan Ridley in that Pats running scheme. What a joke.

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You can celebrate Devin Singletary's rookie year regardless of what his future holds.  However, I will base my determination on how good of a player he really was based on his whole body of work not just one season or another.  

One season is his whole body of work. He was a rookie, guy. I’m not making a definitive statement on his career, I’m commenting on his rookie season. If he has falls off a cliff and sucks next year, yeah, maybe he’s not a great player, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good one in 2019.

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No.  He impacted all the other RBs as well.  They just were just far inferior to Singletary last year which is why they weren't able to take advantage the way he did.  Being the best RB in a bad RB room doesn't make you great.  It just means you're better than your competition that wasn't that good to start with.

McCoy - more efficient in KC than Buffalo.

Gore - more efficient in Miami than Buffalo. 

Ivory - least efficient year of his career in Buffalo. 

So you’re saying Allen helped them out in spite of them doing worse with him than anywhere else? Huh? Seems like 1/4 says he impacted them positively and 3/4 says he impacted them actually negatively. 

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We'll see this year how good Singletary is with Zack Moss joining the RB room.  I actually like Moss as a RB.   That should provide a better comparison point than a 36 year old Frank Gore.

It’ll actually provide zero relevance since we haven’t seen Moss anywhere else, unlike the other 3, who we’ve seen do better elsewhere. Teams probably don’t respect Allen as a passer and play the run.

If we see Singletary do well, you’ll just say it’s because of Allen, Moss, and Diggs. If he does poorly, you’ll just say “told you so”. So really, what does it matter? 

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Yes we do if we have different views regarding the real reasons behind the player in question success.  If I think Josh Allen is helping Singletary more than Singletary's talent carrying him to success then we will need time and changes in circumstances to know who is right.

Is this why you’re never wrong? Because it takes full careers to determine that?

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Think of it in the context of the Brady vs Belichick debate that has been raging for years.  We all know they won 6 titles together but people argue over who was the driving force behind the Patriots dynasty.  Is Belichick the driving force or did Brady make Belichick?  Their breakup gives us a small chance at maybe getting some clarity.  Lets say Brady wins the Super Bowl this year and Belichick misses the playoffs.  This gives Brady's legacy a huge boost and downgrades Belichick because it gives fuel to the opinion that it was Brady not Belichick that made the Patriots dynasty.  If the reverse were to occur and Belichick wins a Super Bowl post-Brady with some other QB then it boosts his legacy as the driving force behind the Patriots dynasty.  If neither has success apart from the other then it gives favor to the view they needed each other.   So you see the future can inform us of the past and vice-versa.  

That’s a stupid debate to be had as well, so using stupidity to back your logic isn’t the best. Anyone who puts weight into Brady’s aged 42 season in a stacked offense (following a year in an untalented, injury riddled offense) or Belichick’s year with either a new QB who was never a good passer or a first year mid-rounder, is shortsighted and will be called out for being so. That’d be like looking at Randy Moss in San Fran and saying “wow he was really carried by those great QBs”. 

Even if I conceded that as a solid point (it isn’t), sort of a bad example, don’t you think? Brad is widely regarded as the GOAT or amongst the top QBs ever. Same with Belichick. They’re in each other’s stratosphere. The difference between what Josh Allen put out last year and what the Bills defense put out? Massive difference. The defense was right there at the top of the NFL. Josh Allen and the offense he led? Much, much worse. Below league average, bottom 10 mostly. Especially at converting thirds. And extending drives. And turning those drives to points. And getting first downs. And not fumbling. And being a high completion offense. Singletary was a bright spot, though.

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Daboll's time in Alabama matters to me just as Lamar Jackson's time in college matters to me in comparison to Patrick Mahomes.  I like to use every piece of information about a person to get to an accurate view about them.  

No, you don’t use every piece of information. You actively throw out stats whenever they don’t favor your guy (and use them when they do). So that’s a lie. 

College matters when you have no basis as a professional, like rookie or first year coaches/coordinators. Other than that? Yeah, no. 

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Once again I don't have the time or interest to go back through the Bills games from last year to give you specific examples of Daboll's playcalling.  Just like I'm not going to give you examples of specific runs that didn't impress me about Singletary.  I'm telling you my overall opinion from watching a selection of games last year from the Bills.  The only things about the Bills offense that impressed me last year was Josh Allen, John Brown (to a lesser degree), and that rookie TE from Ole Miss.  The coaching and playcalling on offense didn't impress me.  Neither did Singletary, the o-line, and other pass catchers.  If you want specifics to support these opinions find someone else.  Convincing you isn't really that important to me.

I thought you were here to inform us? How is a lowly knuckle dragger such as myself supposed to get educated if you can’t provide a single example to back your claims? What makes your opinion different from the neighbor’s 11-year old without something to back it?

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The future informs us of the past and vice-versa.  Refer back to my point about Belichick vs Brady and who was the driving force behind their dynasty.

No, it doesn’t. In 2010, Peyton Hillis was a good player. So was Brandon Lloyd. So was Ridley in 2012. They were one hit wonders but you can pretty easily say that IN THAT SEASON they were good players. 

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If Brady wins without Belichick and Belichick struggles to win without Brady then Tom Brady will prove he was the driving force behind the Patriots dynasty despite the fact some of the Super Bowls (i.e. 2001) were won with the Patriots defense being more dominant than the offense.  I'm making a similar argument with Josh Allen.  As the Bills improve the pieces around him he will prove he is a dominant player and the driving force behind their rise to becoming a great team even in 2019 when the defense was more dominant than the offense.  

Josh Allen can throw for 90 TDs and 10,000 yards in 2021, that doesn’t mean he was the driving force of a playoff team in 2019. 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[ET80]

16 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Should probably consider writing a blog or something. Guess I can’t speak for everyone but it’s my understanding that we discuss things around here. Baseless opinions? Hard to take serious.

Awww thank you for educating us. 

*crickets*

Nah, we don’t have to wait. We already saw Ivory, Gore, and McCoy do better outside of Buffalo than they did as a Bill with Allen. Small sample size maybe, but there’s certainly more evidence that Allen doesn’t do jack for the runners (3/4) than there is evidence that he does (1/4).

LOL. So you’re going boast about being the only one smart enough to look at context and educate us here on the forum, but then come out and say that NE had a great running scheme? How was that great scheme when it was BJGE in 2011 with the brunt of the carries? Where’d that scheme go in the following years? Where was BB and that McDaniels running scheme the last season when they couldn’t move the ball on the ground? 

Every time you try and talk out of your other end, you just make another ignorant comment. First it was Josh Allen and that great job he did converting/extending drives. Now it’s Stevan Ridley in that Pats running scheme. What a joke.

One season is his whole body of work. He was a rookie, guy. I’m not making a definitive statement on his career, I’m commenting on his rookie season. If he has falls off a cliff and sucks next year, yeah, maybe he’s not a great player, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good one in 2019.

McCoy - more efficient in KC than Buffalo.

Gore - more efficient in Miami than Buffalo. 

Ivory - least efficient year of his career in Buffalo. 

So you’re saying Allen helped them out in spite of them doing worse with him than anywhere else? Huh? Seems like 1/4 says he impacted them positively and 3/4 says he impacted them actually negatively. 

It’ll actually provide zero relevance since we haven’t seen Moss anywhere else, unlike the other 3, who we’ve seen do better elsewhere. Teams probably don’t respect Allen as a passer and play the run.

If we see Singletary do well, you’ll just say it’s because of Allen, Moss, and Diggs. If he does poorly, you’ll just say “told you so”. So really, what does it matter? 

Is this why you’re never wrong? Because it takes full careers to determine that?

That’s a stupid debate to be had as well, so using stupidity to back your logic isn’t the best. Anyone who puts weight into Brady’s aged 42 season in a stacked offense (following a year in an untalented, injury riddled offense) or Belichick’s year with either a new QB who was never a good passer or a first year mid-rounder, is shortsighted and will be called out for being so. That’d be like looking at Randy Moss in San Fran and saying “wow he was really carried by those great QBs”. 

Even if I conceded that as a solid point (it isn’t), sort of a bad example, don’t you think? Brad is widely regarded as the GOAT or amongst the top QBs ever. Same with Belichick. They’re in each other’s stratosphere. The difference between what Josh Allen put out last year and what the Bills defense put out? Massive difference. The defense was right there at the top of the NFL. Josh Allen and the offense he led? Much, much worse. Below league average, bottom 10 mostly. Especially at converting thirds. And extending drives. And turning those drives to points. And getting first downs. And not fumbling. And being a high completion offense. Singletary was a bright spot, though.

No, you don’t use every piece of information. You actively throw out stats whenever they don’t favor your guy (and use them when they do). So that’s a lie. 

College matters when you have no basis as a professional, like rookie or first year coaches/coordinators. Other than that? Yeah, no. 

I thought you were here to inform us? How is a lowly knuckle dragger such as myself supposed to get educated if you can’t provide a single example to back your claims? What makes your opinion different from the neighbor’s 11-year old without something to back it?

No, it doesn’t. In 2010, Peyton Hillis was a good player. So was Brandon Lloyd. So was Ridley in 2012. They were one hit wonders but you can pretty easily say that IN THAT SEASON they were good players. 

Josh Allen can throw for 90 TDs and 10,000 yards in 2021, that doesn’t mean he was the driving force of a playoff team in 2019. 

[VanS]

19 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Nah, we don’t have to wait. We already saw Ivory, Gore, and McCoy do better outside of Buffalo than they did as a Bill with Allen. Small sample size maybe, but there’s certainly more evidence that Allen doesn’t do jack for the runners (3/4) than there is evidence that he does (1/4).

What happened to them outside Buffalo is irrelevant.  Those teams have different o-lines, run schemes, and surrounding players.  To many variables to draw any one to one correlation.  I already made this point but I guess I need to make it again so you understand.  The only way to truly tell how much of a difference Allen makes in the run is for him to miss games and to see what happens to the Bills run game with another QB taking snaps.  The difference we see in the run game without Allen as the QB but everything else staying the same (i.e. o-line, playclling, and RBs) will tell us how much impact he makes.  Allen didn't miss significant time last year so we don't have this reference point.  This is the final time I will be making this point.  Don't expect me to keep repeating myself as you like saying the same thing over and over again.

19 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

LOL. So you’re going boast about being the only one smart enough to look at context and educate us here on the forum, but then come out and say that NE had a great running scheme? How was that great scheme when it was BJGE in 2011 with the brunt of the carries? Where’d that scheme go in the following years? Where was BB and that McDaniels running scheme the last season when they couldn’t move the ball on the ground? 

Every time you try and talk out of your other end, you just make another ignorant comment. First it was Josh Allen and that great job he did converting/extending drives. Now it’s Stevan Ridley in that Pats running scheme. What a joke.

I don't have the time or interest to get into some long debate with you about the Patriots running scheme over the last 20 years.  I'm simply making the point about New England that everyone knows.  The fact that the Patriots have a way of getting the best out of players during their stay with New England compared to when they play for other teams.  Its not just RBs but every position more or less.  Are there years the Patriots run scheme is weak?  Sure.  Just like they struggle some years on defense.  Or the pass game.  Or along the offensive line.  And so on.  But through the last 20 years they have been the most dominant organization in the NFL because they have been able to get more out of players while they play for New England than we see from those players when they are elsewhere.  I give Belichick and his system credit for that.

19 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

One season is his whole body of work. He was a rookie, guy. I’m not making a definitive statement on his career, I’m commenting on his rookie season. If he has falls off a cliff and sucks next year, yeah, maybe he’s not a great player, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good one in 2019.

McCoy - more efficient in KC than Buffalo.

Gore - more efficient in Miami than Buffalo. 

Ivory - least efficient year of his career in Buffalo. 

So you’re saying Allen helped them out in spite of them doing worse with him than anywhere else? Huh? Seems like 1/4 says he impacted them positively and 3/4 says he impacted them actually negatively. 

It’ll actually provide zero relevance since we haven’t seen Moss anywhere else, unlike the other 3, who we’ve seen do better elsewhere. Teams probably don’t respect Allen as a passer and play the run.

If we see Singletary do well, you’ll just say it’s because of Allen, Moss, and Diggs. If he does poorly, you’ll just say “told you so”. So really, what does it matter? 

McCoy, Ivory, and Gore were all aging RBs.  I brought up Moss cause he's young and a high draft pick like Singletary.  He will be a far better comparison point in trying to determine just how good Singletary is.  I actually like Moss as a talent.  He was in my top 5 RBs for the 2020 draft.  So for my own evaluation purposes he will provide a good comparison point to Singletary.  If he outperforms Singletary next year and becomes the lead back then I will use that as confirmation that Singletary was the mediocre RB I thought he was.  If he outperfoms Moss then he will be better than I thought.  If both split the carries and neither is much better than the other then I'm either wrong about how good Moss is or how bad Singletary is.

Once again what McCoy and Gore did outside Buffalo is irrelevant.  To many variables to consider when guys go to different teams.  Just look at Kansas City.  They are one of the most explosive offenses in NFL history.  Obviously McCoy will see more success playing there than in Buffalo whose offense lacks talent across the board.   Gore played for Miami last year and is a year older.  Its possible he might have finally fallen off that cliff last year.  Only so long a guy can play RB in the NFL. 

19 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

That’s a stupid debate to be had as well, so using stupidity to back your logic isn’t the best. Anyone who puts weight into Brady’s aged 42 season in a stacked offense (following a year in an untalented, injury riddled offense) or Belichick’s year with either a new QB who was never a good passer or a first year mid-rounder, is shortsighted and will be called out for being so. That’d be like looking at Randy Moss in San Fran and saying “wow he was really carried by those great QBs”. 

Even if I conceded that as a solid point (it isn’t), sort of a bad example, don’t you think? Brad is widely regarded as the GOAT or amongst the top QBs ever. Same with Belichick. They’re in each other’s stratosphere. The difference between what Josh Allen put out last year and what the Bills defense put out? Massive difference. The defense was right there at the top of the NFL. Josh Allen and the offense he led? Much, much worse. Below league average, bottom 10 mostly. Especially at converting thirds. And extending drives. And turning those drives to points. And getting first downs. And not fumbling. And being a high completion offense. Singletary was a bright spot, though.

First of all, your point about Randy Moss makes no sense.  Everyone knows WR is a dependant position.  Nobody puts stock in a WR struggling with poor QB play (as was the case for Randy in Oakland when he was still in his prime) against him.  WRs are judged more on their pure talent and impact on the game when they have an adequate QB who can get them the ball.  There's a reason no WR has ever won league MVP.  They are simply not as valuable to a team's success as a QB or RB because of the dependant nature of the position.

I agree that we are most likely not going to get a good answer to the Belichick/Brady question at this time given Brady's age and the questions surrounding Newton and Stidham.  That why I said in my earlier post that "it gives us a SMALL chance at MAYBE getting some clarity."  However, that doesn't mean it won't have the chance to be informative.  If the Patriots totally crater and go 3-13 for example after nearly 2 decades of excellence it will speak highly of Brady.  Conversely if Belichick is able to more or less keep the train going as always (i.e. another division title, 12 win season, and deep playoff run) with either Stidham or Newton then it will show Brady was at least for a short period of time easily replacable.

With regard to Allen and the Bills, why do you think I brought up the 2001 Patriots?  At that time most thought Brady was just a game manager being carried by his defense who made clutch plays every now and then.  Nobody thought he was an elite QB on the same level as say Peyton Manning.  Just because the gap between the Bills defense and offense is massive now in comparison to the gap between Belichick and Brady now doesn't mean that was always the case for Brady and Belichick.  Early in the Patriots dynasty there was a similar gap in terms of Brady and Belichick.  Brady was not always viewed as elite.  It took years before he was even in the conversation for best QB in the NFL let alone the GOAT.

19 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

No, you don’t use every piece of information. You actively throw out stats whenever they don’t favor your guy (and use them when they do). So that’s a lie. 

College matters when you have no basis as a professional, like rookie or first year coaches/coordinators. Other than that? Yeah, no. 

Every piece of information matters.  That doesn't mean they all get equal weight.  I believe that if you watch a player's tape closely enough you get way more information about how good they are than you would looking at stats.  The stats become superfluous in that case.  Stats are only useful if you never watch a player.  Similar to how a box score after watching a game closely in its entirety becomes largely superfluous but if you never watch the game the box score becomes very informative.  

You can choose to disagree and place more value on stats than I do.  However, the reason I place little value on stats is not for the reason you suggest (where I'm simply trying to validate an apriori opinion).  I utilize this evaluation method in all circumstances and for all players in every sport.  I even use it for when I miss on a player.  Like I said in an earlier post, I knew I was wrong about my evaluation on Courtland Sutton from his first preseason game before he made a single catch.  How did I know I was wrong?  I saw a dynamic explosive fluid athlete that looked and moved different from every other WR on the field that night.  I knew from a few snaps he would be a big time WR in the NFL.  I didn't need to see him put up big time stats in the regular season.  His solid rookie year and breakout sophomore season only supported what I saw that first preseason.  They weren't what made me change my tune on him as a prospect. 

19 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

No, it doesn’t. In 2010, Peyton Hillis was a good player. So was Brandon Lloyd. So was Ridley in 2012. They were one hit wonders but you can pretty easily say that IN THAT SEASON they were good players. 

If you wanna celebrate one hit wonders go right ahead.  I don't care for it.  I try to identify and focus on players who are actually great.  And greatness shows itself over a sustained period of time.  One good year in a career is meaningless. 

You can jump from season to season proclaiming players to be suddenly great or bad if you like.  I try to keep my views on players consistent.  Its why I didn't change my tune on Baker Mayfield even after he had a stellar rookie season in 2018.  I continued to say that he was not worthy of being a first round pick.  A year later in 2019 he has a bad year and my take on him doesn't sound so radical.  Time will ultimately tell us how good or bad Mayfield is.  I just don't think there is much value in jumping to conclusions every year on a player.  I have a central theory which I use to evaluate players.  And I stick to those evaluations until a sufficient body of work presents itself that causes me to change my views.  One single season isn't sufficient to me when it comes to changing my view on how good or bad a player is. 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by VanS