NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020

[Uncle Buck]

5 hours ago, VanS said:

 

I think Mahomes rating is perfectly fine.  You gotta understand athletes think differently than fantasy football fans who just look at stats.  When teams go to play the Chiefs they fear Mahomes weapons just as much as they fear him.  Chiefs have Travis Kelce, Tyreek Hill, Mecole Hardman, and Sammy Watkins.  That's arguably the best set if skill position players in the league.  Mahomes is definitely great but he also has a lot of help.  Conversely when the players play the Ravens its all about Lamar Jackson.  They fear him above all else.

Also you can't overlook the fact the Chiefs looked pretty good while Mahomes was injured.  They beat a really good Vikings team with Matt Moore as the starter.  Played a 13-3 Packers team competitively.  And held on to blow out the Broncos after Mahomes was hurt.  Mahomes benefits just as much from his supporting cast as they benefit from him.  Andy Reids system also plays a part.  QBs have a history of looking their best with him.  Michael Vick had his best year in 2010 with Andy Reid.  Donovan McNabb was a perenial MVP candidate in the early 2000s with Andy Reid.  Even Alex Smith went from a bust to pretty good Pro Bowl caliber QB once he started playing for Andy Reid.

Mahomes is a Hall of Fame talent who is being overrated right now by most (i.e. those who think he's the Michael Jordan of Football or well on his way) thanks to his excellent supporting cast and having a great offensive minded head coach.  Mahomes is perfectly rated by the players alongside Lamar and Russ.  He's in the conversation for the best QB in the NFL but its not as slam dunk of a case that he's #1. 

Seems pretty slam dunk to me.  There is not another player in the league I would take over Mahomes.  I won't use the old cliche' "it isn't even close," but I wouldn't consider anyone else over Mahomes for more than a couple of seconds.  I'd consider that a slam dunk.

[Uncle Buck]

4 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

“Main reason the Bills made the playoffs”

Offensive DVOA: 21st

Defensive DVOA: 6th

Offensive PPG: 23rd

Defensive PPG: 2nd

Offensive points/drive: 24th

Defensive points/drive: 2nd

Offensive yards: 24th

Defensive yards: 3rd

Offensive first downs: 20th

Defensive first downs: 6th

Passing yards/TDs: 26th, 24th

Rushing yards/TDs: 8th, 18th

There’s nothing that suggests Allen or the Bills passing offense in general is even the 3rd most important reason they made the playoffs last year...

 

Wow, that Bills defense was good!

[Tetsujin]

I’d take Allen over Darnold if I had to win just 1 game, because of the running ability.

[VanS]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

“Main reason the Bills made the playoffs”

Offensive DVOA: 21st

Defensive DVOA: 6th

Offensive PPG: 23rd

Defensive PPG: 2nd

Offensive points/drive: 24th

Defensive points/drive: 2nd

Offensive yards: 24th

Defensive yards: 3rd

Offensive first downs: 20th

Defensive first downs: 6th

Passing yards/TDs: 26th, 24th

Rushing yards/TDs: 8th, 18th

There’s nothing that suggests Allen or the Bills passing offense in general is even the 3rd most important reason they made the playoffs last year...

 

Football isn't played in a vacuum.  Offense and defense help each other out.  If Josh Allen isn't moving the chains with his legs and playmaking ability then the defense has to be on the field longer and their numbers would decrease due to fatigue.  Also you can't ignore the fact he tied for the NFL lead last year in game-winning drives and comeback victories.  He also led all QBs in rushing TDs.  Josh Allen might not have the prettiest passing stats but he's clutch and a playmaker.

Just think back to how bad the Bills were in 2018 when Allen was hurt and then how competitive they became when he played.  He's by far the most important player on their team.  Like I said earlier, without Allen they go 6-10 at best last year.

 

[VanS]

5 hours ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

Honestly.... I would take PFF's list over the players list.

I'll take the opinions of the guys who actually play against each other on the field over some nerds who never played a sport in their lives.

[VanS]

5 hours ago, Archimedes said:

We literally saw this same basic Chiefs team with a top 12 QB go one and done in the playoffs losing at home against a heavy underdog.

This is where we differ.  Alex Smith was never a top 12 QB.  He statistically played at level because of Andy Reid's scheme and offensive genius.  For most of his career in San Francisco, Alex Smith was considered a bust.

Alex Smith actually helps my argument.  He's proof of how much Andy Reid's scheme can inflate your numbers.  When you give Andy Reid a first ballot Hall of Fame talent like Patrick Mahomes then it shouldn't be surprising he puts up generational numbers.

I'm not saying Mahomes isn't special.  Just that he's in a very beneficial situation that makes him look better than he really is.  

[VanS]

2 hours ago, Uncle Buck said:

Seems pretty slam dunk to me.  There is not another player in the league I would take over Mahomes.  I won't use the old cliche' "it isn't even close," but I wouldn't consider anyone else over Mahomes for more than a couple of seconds.  I'd consider that a slam dunk.

I have Lamar, Russ, and Deshaun right there with him.  If you told me injuries could be turned off in real life like a video game, I would take Lamar Jackson #1 overall without hestitation.  He's the most impactful individual talent in the NFL.  His abilities as a runner can turn any offense elite.  I don't think Mahomes has the talent to carry subpar players the way Lamar can.

The only hesitation with Lamar is the fact when you run as much as he does you risk injury.  With that said, he has proven to be more durable than Mahomes thus far in their careers.

[Archimedes]

8 minutes ago, VanS said:

This is where we differ.  Alex Smith was never a top 12 QB.  He statistically played at level because of Andy Reid's scheme and offensive genius.  For most of his career in San Francisco, Alex Smith was considered a bust.

Alex Smith actually helps my argument.  He's proof of how much Andy Reid's scheme can inflate your numbers.  When you give Andy Reid a first ballot Hall of Fame talent like Patrick Mahomes then it shouldn't be surprising he puts up generational numbers.

I'm not saying Mahomes isn't special.  Just that he's in a very beneficial situation that makes him look better than he really is.  

Alex Smith most certainly doesn’t help your argument. He hurts it. I don’t care that he struggled early in his career. For the majority of the past decade, Alex was consistently a top third of the league QB. That trumps him being considered a bust early in his career.

Andy Reid is a great coach. The Chiefs have a great supporting cast. But an elite QB elevates their coach/supporting cast much more than an elite coach/supporting cast elevates the QB. This is something that good GMs have understood for more than two decades. 

[43M]

55 minutes ago, VanS said:

I'll take the opinions of the guys who actually play against each other on the field over some nerds who never played a sport in their lives.

In fairness, even most nerds who never played a sport in their lives wouldnt be dumb enough to call Josh Dobbs a franchise QB caliber talent.  

[Soko]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Football isn't played in a vacuum.  Offense and defense help each other out.  If Josh Allen isn't moving the chains with his legs and playmaking ability then the defense has to be on the field longer and their numbers would decrease due to fatigue. 

The Bills offense was 21st in TOP/drive. 26th in plays/drive. 26th in yards/drive. 24th in points/drive. 20th in first downs. 24th in 3D%. 

So yeah, nothing about their drive length in plays, time, points, or first downs really show that the defense was getting extra rest. If anything, the defense was getting less rest than most of the league. Was the Bills O giving the defense lots of time to rest? No. Going on long drives with lots of plays? No. Going on long drives with lots of yards? No. Going on drives to put up points? No. Getting lots of first downs? No. Converting well on their third downs? No. 

Seems pretty evident that the defense “helped out” the offense more than the other way around. I know your favorite thing in the world is the ever-unprovable “eye test”, but you can’t exactly use that here. You are in fact wrong.

Quote

Also you can't ignore the fact he tied for the NFL lead last year in game-winning drives and comeback victories.  He also led all QBs in rushing TDs.  Josh Allen might not have the prettiest passing stats but he's clutch and a playmaker.

So many TDs that the offense was 23rd in scoring. This is supposed to be impressive? As for GWDs, here they are: 

- @ NYJ, Allen throws a TD with 3:07 left on the clock to take a 1 point lead. The Bills defense holds the Jets to 15 total yards on the following drive, turnover on downs. 

- vs Cincy, Gore runs in a TD with 1:50 left on the clock to take a 21-17 lead. The Bills defense intercepts Dalton on the following drive. 

- @ Tennessee, Allen throws a TD to take the lead 14-7, with 9:49 left in the 4th. Bills D/ST force a missed field goal on the following drive. The offense goes three and out, 3 incomplete passes from Allen. Bills D forces the Mariota-Titans to go 3 and out. Then with 4:12 left in the game, the offense runs the clock out, Allen contributing 5 yards on said drive. 

- vs Miami, Allen throws a TD to take the lead 17-14 with 13:55 left in the 4th. Bills hold Miami to 18 yards, punt. Allen gets a first down, punts. Bills force a turnover. Starting on the Miami 16, the Bills offense moves and Allen throws a TD to go up 24-14. Another 3 and out for the defense. Miami drives for a TD, closing the gap at 24-21. Micah Hyde then returns an onside kick for a TD, putting it at 31-21. Bills hold Miami to 19 yards on the following drive to end the game. 

- vs Pittsburgh, Allen throws a TD to take a 17-10 lead with 8:00 in the game. Steelers following drives are a three and out, interception, and interception. 

So one playoff team (pre-Tannehill Titans), no good offenses. Only one game where the lead is taken with under two on the clock. 3 out of 5 actually had 8 minutes or more on the clock when the lead change happened. Every single one had either a defensive turnover or special teams play AFTER the offensive score to take the lead. 

So yeah, color me unimpressed with these “GWDs”. 

Quote

Just think back to how bad the Bills were in 2018 when Allen was hurt and then how competitive they became when he played.  He's by far the most important player on their team.  Like I said earlier, without Allen they go 6-10 at best last year.

Terrible argument that gets thrown around here all the time, even with my Patriots. The Bills were awful without Allen because their backups were awful. Nathan Peterman, Derek Anderson, and Matt Barkley. All bonafide garbage at this point. Allen himself went 5-7 so it’s not like they were playoff bound with him in the fold. People use the “look how the team performed without Player X!” argument all the time, but it matters who is backing them up. 

Allen is the starting QB, so he is the most important individual player. But he’s not the biggest reason they went to the playoffs last year. 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[VanS]

3 hours ago, Archimedes said:

Alex Smith most certainly doesn’t help your argument. He hurts it. I don’t care that he struggled early in his career. For the majority of the past decade, Alex was consistently a top third of the league QB. That trumps him being considered a bust early in his career.

Andy Reid is a great coach. The Chiefs have a great supporting cast. But an elite QB elevates their coach/supporting cast much more than an elite coach/supporting cast elevates the QB. This is something that good GMs have understood for more than two decades. 

What about Michael Vick having the best year of his career with Andy Reid?  How about Donovan McNabb being a perennial MVP candidate in the early 2000s with Andy Reid?  Even journeymen like AJ Feeley and Kevin Kolb had moments of looking decent under Andy Reid.  In fact its hard to find a QB who has played for Andy Reid who didn't have his best moments with him.

Look no further than last year when Mahomes got hurt.  The Chiefs didn't fall off a cliff.  They were still competitive and Matt Moore looked better than he ever did in his career.

There is no doubt Andy Reid's scheme is extremely helpful to the QBs who play for him.  Patrick Mahomes just happens to be the most talented which is why his numbers have been the best.  I have no idea why ya'll are fighting against this clearly obvious truth.

[VanS]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

The Bills offense was 21st in TOP/drive. 26th in plays/drive. 26th in yards/drive. 24th in points/drive. 20th in first downs. 24th in 3D%. 

So yeah, nothing about their drive length in plays, time, points, or first downs really show that the defense was getting extra rest. If anything, the defense was getting less rest than most of the league. Was the Bills O giving the defense lots of time to rest? No. Going on long drives with lots of plays? No. Going on long drives with lots of yards? No. Going on drives to put up points? No. Getting lots of first downs? No. Converting well on their third downs? No. 

Seems pretty evident that the defense “helped out” the offense more than the other way around. I know your favorite thing in the world is the ever-unprovable “eye test”, but you can’t exactly use that here. You are in fact wrong.

So many TDs that the offense was 23rd in scoring. This is supposed to be impressive? As for GWDs, here they are: 

- @ NYJ, Allen throws a TD with 3:07 left on the clock to take a 1 point lead. The Bills defense holds the Jets to 15 total yards on the following drive, turnover on downs. 

- vs Cincy, Gore runs in a TD with 1:50 left on the clock to take a 21-17 lead. The Bills defense intercepts Dalton on the following drive. 

- @ Tennessee, Allen throws a TD to take the lead 14-7, with 9:49 left in the 4th. Bills D/ST force a missed field goal on the following drive. The offense goes three and out, 3 incomplete passes from Allen. Bills D forces the Mariota-Titans to go 3 and out. Then with 4:12 left in the game, the offense runs the clock out, Allen contributing 5 yards on said drive. 

- vs Miami, Allen throws a TD to take the lead 17-14 with 13:55 left in the 4th. Bills hold Miami to 18 yards, punt. Allen gets a first down, punts. Bills force a turnover. Starting on the Miami 16, the Bills offense moves and Allen throws a TD to go up 24-14. Another 3 and out for the defense. Miami drives for a TD, closing the gap at 24-21. Micah Hyde then returns an onside kick for a TD, putting it at 31-21. Bills hold Miami to 19 yards on the following drive to end the game. 

- vs Pittsburgh, Allen throws a TD to take a 17-10 lead with 8:00 in the game. Steelers following drives are a three and out, interception, and interception. 

So one playoff team (pre-Tannehill Titans), no good offenses. Only one game where the lead is taken with under two on the clock. 3 out of 5 actually had 8 minutes or more on the clock when the lead change happened. Every single one had either a defensive turnover or special teams play AFTER the offensive score to take the lead. 

So yeah, color me unimpressed with these “GWDs”. 

Terrible argument that gets thrown around here all the time, even with my Patriots. The Bills were awful without Allen because their backups were awful. Nathan Peterman, Derek Anderson, and Matt Barkley. All bonafide garbage at this point. Allen himself went 5-7 so it’s not like they were playoff bound with him in the fold. People use the “look how the team performed without Player X!” argument all the time, but it matters who is backing them up. 

Allen is the starting QB, so he is the most important individual player. But he’s not the biggest reason they went to the playoffs last year. 

1. If Josh Allen wasn't the QB the defense would get even less rest.  I wasn't trying to argue Josh Allen was some time of possession monster.  Just that even the best defenses need some rest and Allen did enough with the subpar talent around him on that offense to move the chains and give them some rest (even if it wasn't impressive in relation to the rest of the league).

2. It doesn't matter if the game-winning drives came against non-playoff teams.  Once again I was not arguing that the Bills were some juggernaut team.  I was simply pointing out that Josh Allen wasn't simply a game manager type QB just along for the ride on a dominant defensive team.  He made plays when it mattered that directly led to wins.  Even if the competition was subpar.  The level of competition proves the Bills weren't that good of a team last year despite the record.  It doesn't take away from the fact Josh Allen won those games.

3. All we can go on is who was on the Bills roster at the time.  Yes the backups were awful but where they much worse than most NFL team's backups?  I don't think so.  In general most NFL teams have terrible backup QB situations.  I presented the 2018 situation to show that Allen isn't simply a game manager who is along for the ride.  The gist I get from most Allen critics is that he's either holding the Bills back or just along for the ride.  When in reality he is not only their most important player but the driving force behind their success.

 

Most people just don't want to give Josh Allen credit because they want their pre-draft takes that he would be a bust to come true.  In reality he's already proven he's not a bust.  But his haters will continue to hold out hope.  That is where most of his criticism comes from. 

[Scoundrel]

3 hours ago, 43M said:

In fairness, even most nerds who never played a sport in their lives wouldnt be dumb enough to call Josh Dobbs a franchise QB caliber talent.  

I should probably doing something modish about this but I have to be true and honest to myself. I can’t stop laughing. 

[Soko]

15 minutes ago, VanS said:

1. If Josh Allen wasn't the QB the defense would get even less rest.  I wasn't trying to argue Josh Allen was some time of possession monster.  Just that even the best defenses need some rest and Allen did enough with the subpar talent around him on that offense to move the chains and give them some rest (even if it wasn't impressive in relation to the rest of the league).

That Josh Allen led offense led the defense to have less rest than most of the league’s defenses. It’s a joke you’re trying to spin that off as value that Josh Allen presents over all but 5 QBs.

15 minutes ago, VanS said:

2. It doesn't matter if the game-winning drives came against non-playoff teams.  Once again I was not arguing that the Bills were some juggernaut team.  I was simply pointing out that Josh Allen wasn't simply a game manager type QB just along for the ride on a dominant defensive team.  He made plays when it mattered that directly led to wins.  Even if the competition was subpar.  The level of competition proves the Bills weren't that good of a team last year despite the record.  It doesn't take away from the fact Josh Allen won those games.

The defense or special teams forced a turnover in every game after the offense took the lead. But I guess they wouldn’t have done that without all that rest they were getting, right? All that below league average rest?

15 minutes ago, VanS said:

3. All we can go on is who was on the Bills roster at the time.  Yes the backups were awful but where they much worse than most NFL team's backups?  I don't think so.  In general most NFL teams have terrible backup QB situations.  I presented the 2018 situation to show that Allen isn't simply a game manager who is along for the ride.  The gist I get from most Allen critics is that he's either holding the Bills back or just along for the ride.  When in reality he is not only their most important player but the driving force behind their success.

You are known for your predictions. You are known for you draft takes. You are not currently known for peddling out false information, but you are getting there with posts like this. 

Allen wasn’t the driving force. I presented to you how the defense VASTLY outperformed the offense. Your response was that Allen deserves credit for giving them rest (which is absurd). I presented to you that the Bills offense was in fact bad at possessing the ball, giving the defense rest, and turning drives into points. So yeah, you can’t peddle that Allen was the force of this playoff team. You can’t back it up. 

Well, I guess you can keep saying it, it’s just proven false. At least your other posts have some ambiguity in them.

15 minutes ago, VanS said:

Most people just don't want to give Josh Allen credit because they want their pre-draft takes that he would be a bust to come true.  In reality he's already proven he's not a bust.  But his haters will continue to hold out hope.  That is where most of his criticism comes from. 

You realize the irony of this statement, right? You’re going to sit here and accuse most people of sticking to their pre-draft guns, when you’re doing the exact same thing? But I suppose there’s no irony because you’re right and everyone’s wrong, shrug. 

FWIW, don’t bother deflecting by bringing up “most people”, I’m not going to defend ghost opinions. Do not confuse my posts with those saying Allen is a bust or trash. But you said Allen was the main reason they made the playoffs, wrong. You said the defenses relied on Allen giving them rest, wrong. You brought up Allen’s GWDs but refuse to acknowledge that in each, the defense/special teams made later plays in the game to actually hold the lead against those largely bad teams. 

[Archimedes]

37 minutes ago, VanS said:

What about Michael Vick having the best year of his career with Andy Reid?  How about Donovan McNabb being a perennial MVP candidate in the early 2000s with Andy Reid?  Even journeymen like AJ Feeley and Kevin Kolb had moments of looking decent under Andy Reid.  In fact its hard to find a QB who has played for Andy Reid who didn't have his best moments with him.

Look no further than last year when Mahomes got hurt.  The Chiefs didn't fall off a cliff.  They were still competitive and Matt Moore looked better than he ever did in his career.

There is no doubt Andy Reid's scheme is extremely helpful to the QBs who play for him.  Patrick Mahomes just happens to be the most talented which is why his numbers have been the best.  I have no idea why ya'll are fighting against this clearly obvious truth.

Cool story. And John Harbaugh, who is Lamar Jackson’s coach (you know, the guy you claim is clearly number one) actually won a SB with Joe Flacco as his QB. Help me out here, is that good? It sure seems like it.
 

Tom Brady, who is nearly unanimously viewed as the GOAT (justifiably), spent his career playing for a guy who is a top 2 coach all time (I think Bill is the GOAT coach too FTR). Great coaches don’t diminish great QBs, no matter how you slice. 
 

You’re talking about “obvious truths”, but really you’re just being a contrarian. Like, I get why people might try to argue Russell Wilson vs Mahomes. Arguing Lamar Jackson is just arguing to argue at this point, and that’s no disrespect to LJ, who I think was deserving of the MVP. But he has yet to accomplish enough to be compared to Mahomes.