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NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020


RandyMossIsBoss

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12 hours ago, VanS said:

I have Lamar, Russ, and Deshaun right there with him.  If you told me injuries could be turned off in real life like a video game, I would take Lamar Jackson #1 overall without hestitation.  He's the most impactful individual talent in the NFL.  His abilities as a runner can turn any offense elite.  I don't think Mahomes has the talent to carry subpar players the way Lamar can.

The only hesitation with Lamar is the fact when you run as much as he does you risk injury.  With that said, he has proven to be more durable than Mahomes thus far in their careers.

Lamar “carried” 12 Pro Bowlers (coached by a SB winning HC in Harbaugh) to a Divisional Round playoff loss. People forget that the Ravens were being considered one of the greatest teams of all time until they lost. Yet Lamar is the only player to ever be No. 1 on the Top 100 List without a single playoff win to his name.

Mahomes had a bottom ten running game and the 17th rated defense. Overcame 24, 10, and 10 point deficits to win the Chiefs first Super Bowl in 50 years. 

Tyreek Hill is an amazing talent...never won a playoff game until he got Mahomes. When Mahomes was drafted, Baltimore was a far more respected franchise...the Chiefs had the same amount of playoff wins from 1994-2017 as the Cleveland Browns: 1

I don’t care what the list says, if you are a quarterback with zero playoff wins, then you are not the best quarterback in the NFL. 

 

Edited by Nightime
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9 hours ago, Archimedes said:

Cool story. And John Harbaugh, who is Lamar Jackson’s coach (you know, the guy you claim is clearly number one) actually won a SB with Joe Flacco as his QB. Help me out here, is that good? It sure seems like it.

Tom Brady, who is nearly unanimously viewed as the GOAT (justifiably), spent his career playing for a guy who is a top 2 coach all time (I think Bill is the GOAT coach too FTR). Great coaches don’t diminish great QBs, no matter how you slice. 

Bad point. Harbaugh is a special teams/defense coach. He has very little input on the Ravens offense. And historically the Ravens have been a mediocre to bad team on offense until Lamar came along. 

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You’re talking about “obvious truths”, but really you’re just being a contrarian. Like, I get why people might try to argue Russell Wilson vs Mahomes. Arguing Lamar Jackson is just arguing to argue at this point, and that’s no disrespect to LJ, who I think was deserving of the MVP. But he has yet to accomplish enough to be compared to Mahomes.

Lamar is on the same track as Mahomes. Both won MVP in their second season. Mahomes has just been in the league 1 year longer.

Also Mahomes is 1.5  years older than Lamar. So give Lamar 2020 and 2021 to win a Super Bowl. They are on the same trajectory, it's just Mahomes is older and been in the league longer. 

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2 hours ago, Nightime said:

Lamar “carried” 12 Pro Bowlers (coached by a SB winning HC in Harbaugh) to a Divisional Round playoff loss. People forget that the Ravens were being considered one of the greatest teams of all time until they lost. Yet Lamar is the only player to ever be No. 1 on the Top 100 List without a single playoff win to his name.

Poor analysis. Many of those 12 pro bowlers were just average players until they played next to Lamar. Lamar is so good he transformed a mediocre offense into one of the greatest regular season offenses of all time. 

In contrast, KC was the 4th best offense in 2017 (according to DVOA) . Mahomes just made them slightly better (1st in 2018, 3rd in 2019). He already had a great offensive unit, he just made it better.  

Ravens were a middle of the pack offense in 2018, record of 4-5. Then Lamar went 6-1 and 14-2 with those same players. 7th greatest offense of all time in 2019 (according to DVOA). Mahomes never dominated the regular season like that, and he has better players and offensive coaches around him. 

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Here is an important question that I don't see answered: when are these votes even submitted? Are we actually sure this was done after the SB? Just because they released the list now doesn't mean that

There's actually an article from 2013 saying the ballots go out in November and can be submitted from then until next April.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/05/inside-the-top-100-voting-process/

If the same is still true, then Lamar over Mahomes isn't that surprising. 

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1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Poor analysis. Many of those 12 pro bowlers were just average players until they played next to Lamar. Lamar is so good he transformed a mediocre offense into one of the greatest regular season offenses of all time. 

In contrast, KC was the 4th best offense in 2017 (according to DVOA) . Mahomes just made them slightly better (1st in 2018, 3rd in 2019). He already had a great offensive unit, he just made it better.  

Ravens were a middle of the pack offense in 2018, record of 4-5. Then Lamar went 6-1 and 14-2 with those same players. 7th greatest offense of all time in 2019 (according to DVOA). Mahomes never dominated the regular season like that, and he has better players and offensive coaches around him. 

The Chiefs averaged 25 points a game in 2017. The next year Mahomes raised that number to 35 points per game. 
 

Patrick Mahomes led offenses have been held to under 23 points once. Smiths offenses fell below that total numerous times, and 3 times in 3 playoff losses. 

In the playoffs, it gets even better. Mahomes offense averages 35.8 points a game in 5 playoff games. Smith led us to 26 a game in the postseason and a 1-4 record. 

In the Smith era, our defense allowed 22ppg. Mahomes defenses have given up 25ppg in the playoffs. Despite having to deal with worse defensive performances, Mahomes carries a 4-1 playoff record, while Smith’s ended at 1-4 with KC

The offense is a different animal with Patrick, and he deserves all the praise he gets. 

Edited by Nightime
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46 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

Here is an important question that I don't see answered: when are these votes even submitted? Are we actually sure this was done after the SB? Just because they released the list now doesn't mean that

There's actually an article from 2013 saying the ballots go out in November and can be submitted from then until next April.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/05/inside-the-top-100-voting-process/

If the same is still true, then Lamar over Mahomes isn't that surprising. 

I’ve heard multiple talking heads in the last couple of days come out and say that the voting occurs in November/December, before the season ends. Based on that, yes, I could see why people would have put Lamar 1. My issue is that with the extra information we’ve gained from that point to the end of the postseason, no one should still be trying to argue that Lamar is over Mahomes (as someone in this thread is trying to do).

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33 minutes ago, Archimedes said:

I’ve heard multiple talking heads in the last couple of days come out and say that the voting occurs in November/December, before the season ends. Based on that, yes, I could see why people would have put Lamar 1. My issue is that with the extra information we’ve gained from that point to the end of the postseason, no one should still be trying to argue that Lamar is over Mahomes (as someone in this thread is trying to do).

I'm not sure about that. Put Mahomes in a mediocre offense with mediocre offensive coaches, I don't think he dominates the league like he's been doing.

Lamar can singlehandedly transform a mediocre offense with mediocre offensive coaches into one of the greatest regular season offenses ever assembled. We've seen him do it already. 

Lamar accomplished as much if not more than Mahomes did in his second year, and Lamar is younger. 

Edited by AngusMcFife
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1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Bad point. Harbaugh is a special teams/defense coach. He has very little input on the Ravens offense. And historically the Ravens have been a mediocre to bad team on offense until Lamar came along. 

Lamar is on the same track as Mahomes. Both won MVP in their second season. Mahomes has just been in the league 1 year longer.

Also Mahomes is 1.5  years older than Lamar. So give Lamar 2020 and 2021 to win a Super Bowl. They are on the same trajectory, it's just Mahomes is older and been in the league longer. 

If you’re going to try to discredit one of the best coaches in the league to prop up Lamar because Harbaugh is just a “defensive/special teams guy”, then don’t bring up Lamar’s W-L record to me. Lamar has had the benefit of an elite defense the entirety of the time he has been a starter in Baltimore. Stick to comparing his numbers vs Mahomes, where Mahomes has a clear advantage, especially when you add playoff performances, which you’re trying to conveniently ignore. Also, Greg Roman, the guy was OC during Lamar’s MVP year once designed an offense that had people thinking Colin Kaepernick might be an elite QB.

Also to be clear, you’re predicting a Ravens SB victory with Lamar being SB MVP within the next two years right? If you’re saying stuff like “Lamar is on the same track as Mahomes”, and “They are one the same trajectory” then that’s what you’re saying. 
 

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1 minute ago, Archimedes said:

If you’re going to try to discredit one of the best coaches in the league to prop up Lamar because Harbaugh is just a “defensive/special teams guy”, then don’t bring up Lamar’s W-L record to me. Lamar has had the benefit of an elite defense the entirety of the time he has been a starter in Baltimore. 
 

So what? The defense has been good/great for the past 20 years in Baltimore. That hasn't help the offense at all, the offense has been mediocre to bad the entire time. 

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Stick to comparing his numbers vs Mahomes, where Mahomes has a clear advantage, especially when you add playoff performances, which you’re trying to conveniently ignore.

Okay let's talk numbers. The 2019 Ravens offense was objectively better than any Mahomes led Chiefs offense, despite the fact that the Chiefs benefit from 1) an all time great offensive coach 2) ridiculously talented skill players. That's all on Lamar.  

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Also, Greg Roman, the guy was OC during Lamar’s MVP year once designed an offense that had people thinking Colin Kaepernick might be an elite QB.
 

Greg Roman couldn't even get a coordinator job in 2017 or 2018, that's how respected he is. Lamar revived his career. The 49ers offense cratered after 2013 and Roman wasn't good with the Bills afterwards.  

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Also to be clear, you’re predicting a Ravens SB victory with Lamar being SB MVP within the next two years right? If you’re saying stuff like “Lamar is on the same track as Mahomes”, and “They are one the same trajectory” then that’s what you’re saying. 

Yes, if Lamar doesn't have some playoff success in the next 2 years, then I will change my tune. 

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18 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I'm not sure about that. Put Mahomes in a mediocre offense with mediocre offensive coaches, I don't think he dominates the league like he's been doing.

A completely biased opinion that you have no way of proving either way. 

 

18 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Lamar can singlehandedly transform a mediocre offense with mediocre offensive coaches into one of the greatest regular season offenses ever assembled. We've seen him do it already. 

Well, we in fact haven’t seen Lamar do that. He had at least 5 PB teammates on offense (one of whom was a first team AP). His OC designed a competent offense around Colin Kaepernick. Lamar want doing anything by himself last year.Lamar accomplished as much if not more than Mahomes did in his second year, and Lamar is younger. 

18 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Lamar accomplished as much if not more than Mahomes did in his second year, and Lamar is younger. 

Funny thing about that, he actually hasn’t. He’s actually accomplished substantially less. The postseason counts.

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28 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

So what? The defense has been good/great for the past 20 years in Baltimore. That hasn't help the offense at all, the offense has been mediocre to bad the entire time. 

So don’t bring up Lamar’s W-L record then, that point was obvious.

28 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Okay let's talk numbers. The 2019 Ravens offense was objectively better than any Mahomes led Chiefs offense, despite the fact that the Chiefs benefit from 1) an all time great offensive coach 2) ridiculously talented skill players. That's all on Lamar.  

It was better because the Chiefs starting QB missed nearly 3 games. Who’s offense was better in the playoffs? And lol at “That’s all on Lamar.” Why? Because you say so?

28 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Greg Roman couldn't even get a coordinator job in 2017 or 2018, that's how respected he is. Lamar revived his career. The 49ers offense cratered after 2013 and Roman wasn't good with the Bills afterwards.  

Lamar’s MVP year came literally running the offense we saw Roman design in SF. It cratered because his QB couldn’t read a defense to save his life.

The Niners Offensive DVOA the year before Roman arrived vs his first year: 24/18

The Bills Offensive DVOA the year before Roman arrived vs his first year: 26/9

Looks to me like Roman can actually coach, and you’re just arguing narratives.

35 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yes, if Lamar doesn't have some playoff success in the next 2 years, then I will change my tune. 

So even though Mahomes has VASTLY outplayed Lamar in the playoffs for two straight years, he needs to do it for two more before you’re willing to change your tune. That doesn’t sound like bias at all...

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17 minutes ago, Archimedes said:

Well, we in fact haven’t seen Lamar do that. He had at least 5 PB teammates on offense (one of whom was a first team AP).

LOL those players played before Lamar Jackson got there, the only one who is a sure pro-bowler without Lamar is Yanda, who is old and in decline. Ingram made 2 pro-bowls in 8 years before Baltimore. Andrews and Ricard are good scheme fits but nothing special as players. Stanley is a good, ascending LT, but doesn't have the strength to compare with the best LTs in the league. Pass rushers can't aggressively rush b/c of Lamar's speed. All these players are helped tremendously by scheme, and the fact the defenses are all keying on Lamar.  

Of all the Ravens offensive pro-bowl players in 2019, only one was on the pro-bowl in 2018. Do you understand cause and effect? 

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Funny thing about that, he actually hasn’t. He’s actually accomplished substantially less. The postseason counts.

Yes I agree. The postseason counts, and the regular season counts. Lamar has been better in the regular season, while Mahomes has had more postseason success. So that evens out. But typically regular season success is more sustainable. Plenty of mediocre QBs have had nice playoff runs. If you think putting Mahomes in the same category as Eli Manning or Joe Flacco, sorry it's not that impressive. 

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2 minutes ago, Archimedes said:

So don’t bring up Lamar’s W-L record then, that point was obvious.

You're the one who keeps bringing it up. Give it a rest. 

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It was better because the Chiefs starting QB missed nearly 3 games. Who’s offense was better in the playoffs?

The Ravens 2019 offense was also better than the 2018 Chiefs offense, when Mahomes wasn't injured. 

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And lol at “That’s all on Lamar.” Why? Because you say so?

Because I watch football and understand the sport. I know the Ravens roster and the skill of their players. I know how well they performed before Lamar was playing and after he started playing. 

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Lamar’s MVP year came literally running the offense we saw Roman design in SF. It cratered because his QB couldn’t read a defense to save his life.

The Niners Offensive DVOA the year before Roman arrived vs his first year: 24/18

The Bills Offensive DVOA the year before Roman arrived vs his first year: 26/9

Looks to me like Roman can actually coach, and you’re just arguing narratives.

Your numbers indicate the offenses got worse when Roman arrived. Is that what you are trying to communicate? I think he is a decent coach who stumbled into a great QB. But nobody wanted to hire him after 2016. He's no Andy Reid, that's for sure. 

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So even though Mahomes has VASTLY outplayed Lamar in the playoffs for two straight years, he needs to do it for two more before you’re willing to change your tune. That doesn’t sound like bias at all...

Meh. Peyton Manning didn't win a playoff game until his 6th year in the league, and is considered top-5 all time QB. It seems you want to place more emphasis on post-season success because it furthers your narrative.  

I'm arguing that Lamar deserves to be in the conversation with Mahomes, given 1) he's younger, 2) his regular season offense has been better than Mahomes, despite 3) having less talented offensive players around him, 4) having mediocre coaching versus one of the greatest offensive coaching minds in the game. 

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My issue is that with the extra information we’ve gained from that point to the end of the postseason, no one should still be trying to argue that Lamar is over Mahomes (as someone in this thread is trying to do).

Lamar has higher upside, if he continues improving. Lamar is not a finished product. And the NFL players chose Lamar over Mahomes after playing against both. 

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9 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

LOL those players played before Lamar Jackson got there, the only one who is a sure pro-bowler without Lamar is Yanda, who is old and in decline. Ingram made 2 pro-bowls in 8 years before Baltimore. Andrews and Ricard are good scheme fits but nothing special as players. Stanley is a good, ascending LT, but doesn't have the strength to compare with the best LTs in the league. Pass rushers can't aggressively rush b/c of Lamar's speed. All these players are helped tremendously by scheme, and the fact the defenses are all keying on Lamar.  

Of all the Ravens offensive pro-bowl players in 2019, only one was on the pro-bowl in 2018. Do you understand cause and effect? 

I most certainly do understand cause and effect. I also understand narratives.

Fans on Andy Reid before Mahomes: “He’s a playoff choker who’ll never win the big one because he falls in love with the pass!!!!!”

Fans on Andy Reid after Mahomes: “OMG he’s one of the greatest offensive minds the game has ever seen!!!! What QB couldn’t possibly have success in his offense!!!!!”

The reality was Reid is and has always been an elite head coach, HOF caliber even. Unlike you, I’m not insecure about my QB so I don’t have to downplay the coaches and supporting cast.

10 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yes I agree. The postseason counts, and the regular season counts. Lamar has been better in the regular season,

He has???

Mahomes vs Lamar best season: QBR - Passer Rating - ANY/A - DVOA - PFF grade

Mahomes

80.3 - 113.8 - 8.89 - 39.9 - 92.9

Lamar

81.3 - 113.3 - 8.18 - 34.9 - 90.1


Mahomes vs Lamar 2nd best season: QBR - Passer Rating - ANY/A - DVOA - PFF grade

Mahomes

76.3 - 105.3 - 8.33 - 30 - 90.2

Lamar

42.6 - 84.5 - 5.99 - -9.2 - (couldn’t find it)

Fairly liberal definition of “better” you’re using.

26 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Mahomes has had more postseason success. So that evens out. But typically regular season success is more sustainable. Plenty of mediocre QBs have had nice playoff runs. If you think putting Mahomes in the same category as Eli Manning or Joe Flacco, sorry it's not that impressive. 

Lol, at throwing Eli and Flacco out there, the Chiefs averaged 39 ppg in the playoffs last year. Did either of those other two guys do that? Of course, I’d rather my QB be SB MVP than average 14.5 ppg in the playoffs, you know, what Ravens have averaged under Lamar.

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