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NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Archimedes said:

A completely biased opinion that you have no way of proving either way.

Actually we saw this in college.  Both Lamar and Mahomes were unheralded 3-star recruits.  Both went to mediocre Power 5 programs in the same conference as established juggernauts.  Lamar ended up taking his mediocre program to as high as the #3 team in the country deep into November of the 2016 college football season and was in conversation to make the College Football playoff that year.  Something nobody saw coming for a program like Louisville.  Mahomes on the other hand never took his mediocre program to unprecedented heights in college.  He did what most other Texas Tech QBs have done in the past.  Put up big numbers on a mediocre team.

Lamar Jackson has a history of carrying subpar talent to incredible heights.  Mahomes doesn't.  Once again this doesn't mean Mahomes isn't all-time great.  It just means he doesn't have the same unique skill set Lamar does.  Mahomes has a skill set that is typical of most QBs.  Which is he needs support.  He needs a good o-line to give him time.  He needs receivers who can get open.  Lamar doesn't need that much support.  He just needs to be allowed to play his game.  And when you let him play his game, he causes so much stress on the defense with his legs that receivers see less man coverage, offensive lineman see fewer blitzes, running backs see more lanes as the defense has to honor Lamar's own running ability, and so on.

I don't know how anybody who knows anything about football could deny this.  The only factor keeping Lamar and similarly skilled QBs from dominating the NFL year in year out is the fact running the ball is very risky and taking lots of hits as a football player has a toll on your longevity in the sport. 

Edited by VanS
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32 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Read what you want to read. I never said anything about Allen as a player. 

Just pointing out your obviously false statements and backing it up with facts, that’s all. Predict whatever you want, but the Bills O was massively outperformed by the defense and your statement about “Allen giving the defense rest” proved to be...bs.

Bills offense has no talent on it outside of Josh Allen.  I am judging Allen in context rather than just the raw end product.  You are simply putting up the end product and then trying to make your determination then.  We can agree to disagree on exactly how much talent Allen has had to work with on offense.  I've done this little dance before with other anti-Allen posters.  At the end of the day time will eventually show us who is right.  The Bills finally gave him a decent player this year with the addition of Stefon Diggs.  As he gets more and more playmakers around him I expect the raw offensive numbers you seem to like obsessing over to start to reflect his talent level.

Bet against Josh Allen at your own risk. 

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21 minutes ago, rocky_rams said:

Lamar, although he had a great season last season, isn’t even on the same planet as the QBs mentioned above. His scheme was so simple and Lamar relies way too much on his athleticism. On film he doesnt  have any where near the same qualities as the other QBs mentioned above. He’s a great football player but he isn’t as sharp a QB as the guys you mentioned 

I agree.  Right now Lamar is very raw and dominating based on his athleticism.  But at the end of the day his athleticism is so amazing its good enough to transform a mediocre supporting cast into a juggernaut of an offense.  When I was doing my pre-draft predictions for the 2018 NFL Draft, I actually rated Lamar as my #2 QB in the class for that very reason (FTR he was still in my top 5 players overall).  I had Josh Allen rated as my QB1 because I saw him as more of a long term bet.  While in the short term I predicted Lamar would be the better QB because the NFL would have no answer for his athleticism.   When Lamar's athleticism declines or he starts to deal with injuries we can start talking about the other parts of his game.  But as of now he's better at what he does than anybody else is at what they do.  So we gotta give him credit for that rather than trying to downgrade him because he's playing a different brand of QB.

Before the 2018 draft I said Lamar Jackson would be the most dominant player from that class over the first 5 years of his career because of his spell-binding athleticism.  After that, who knows.  He could end up having a long successful career like Michael Vick where he continues to develop the other parts of his game or he could end up being the Terrell Davis of the QB position where he has a short run that is as dominant as anyone in the history of the game but never develops much beyond being a great athlete who relies on his physical gifts to propel his game.  I think the former is more likely than the latter because I respect Lamar's work ethic and competitiveness.  But this is a legitimate point which is why I still like Josh Allen over Lamar over the long term.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, VanS said:

Bills offense has no talent on it outside of Josh Allen.  I am judging Allen in context rather than just the raw end product.  You are simply putting up the end product and then trying to make your determination then.  We can agree to disagree on exactly how much talent Allen has had to work with on offense.  I've done this little dance before with other anti-Allen posters.  At the end of the day time will eventually show us who is right.  The Bills finally gave him a decent player this year with the addition of Stefon Diggs.  As he gets more and more playmakers around him I expect the raw offensive numbers you seem to like obsessing over to start to reflect his talent level.

Bet against Josh Allen at your own risk. 

Lol.

I’m not betting against Josh or commenting on the offense’s talent. 

I am pointing out your incorrect statements in regards to Allen or the offense carrying the team to the playoffs and the offense giving the defense time to rest. 

Edited by Yin-Yang
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Y'all are being too sensitive with this you can't compare anyone to Mahomes or exist on the "same planet" as him nonsense. We compare Mahomes and Trubisky all the time. We can compare the reigning MVP to him too. Reel in your certainty. Things change so quickly in the NFL that what people seem so sure of at one point will seem silly in a month. There is a long time to stew on how a season ends (moreso this year), but when games actually happen, these consensus opinions will swing in 4 games max. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we are talking about someone completely new as top dog half a season from now. Heck, Brady and the Patriots were 8-0 defending champs half a season ago and where are they now?

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1 hour ago, VanS said:

Actually we saw this in college.  Both Lamar and Mahomes were unheralded 3-star recruits.  

I 100% don’t care what they did in college. Like, at all.

 

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Lamar Jackson has a history of carrying subpar talent to incredible heights.  Mahomes doesn't.  Once again this doesn't mean Mahomes isn't all-time great.  It just means he doesn't have the same unique skill set Lamar does.  Mahomes has a skill set that is typical of most QBs.  Which is he needs support.  He needs a good o-line to give him time.  He needs receivers who can get open.  Lamar doesn't need that much support.  He just needs to be allowed to play his game.  And when you let him play his game, he causes so much stress on the defense with his legs that receivers see less man coverage, offensive lineman see fewer blitzes, running backs see more lanes as the defense has to honor Lamar's own running ability, and so on.

I don't know how anybody who knows anything about football could deny this.  The only factor keeping Lamar and similarly skilled QBs from dominating the NFL year in year out is the fact running the ball is very risky and taking lots of hits as a football player has a toll on your longevity in the sport. 

Lamar didn’t lead “subpar talent to incredible heights”. He led a team with a top 5 defense, 5 other pro-bowlers on offense with one being an all-pro, and a SB winning coach to a 14-2 record and one and done in the playoffs. He had a great individual RS and won a deserving MVP while playing on a loaded team, and then flamed out in the playoffs. What season were you watching last year?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Archimedes said:

I 100% don’t care what they did in college. Like, at all.

 

Lamar didn’t lead “subpar talent to incredible heights”. He led a team with a top 5 defense, 5 other pro-bowlers on offense with one being an all-pro, and a SB winning coach to a 14-2 record and one and done in the playoffs. He had a great individual RS and won a deserving MVP while playing on a loaded team, and then flamed out in the playoffs. What season were you watching last year?

Its legitimate to call it subpar talent because it was. You’re completely wrong here. Prior to Lamar taking over the Ravens rushing attack was ranked 31st in the league through 9 weeks of play. Stanley, Yanda, and Andrews were all starters at that point in 2018 (Only Yanda would ultimately make the pro bowl that season) just FYI. Now in the 7 games that followed, the Ravens would go on to average over 200 rushing yards a game, by far surpassing any of the rushing averages of other teams in the league over that time period. The squad would ultimately end up just short of surpassing the Seahawks for the #1 team rushing crown, finishing second place in the league. So Lamar’s impact was transforming the 31st ranked rushing attack into the 2nd ranked rushing attack in 7 weeks time. He did this with only one Pro Bowler on offense, Marshal Yanda.

Then the following season Lamar took much of that same talent plus Ingram and a hobbled Hollywood and transformed it from a middle of the pack offense to one of the top 10 offenses of all time and the most prolific rushing attack in NFL history.

You can’t play the “I’m just telling it like it is” card yet not also acknowledge just how mediocre the Ravens offense was prior to Lamar’s arrival. Flacco started all 16 games in 2017 and led the 21st best offense according to FO and the offense ranked 27th in yards. It could be argued that even mediocre might be too strong a word. Whereas in Lamar’s first full season as a starter, the offense climbed to #1 in the league.

Edited by diamondbull424

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Its legitimate to call it subpar talent because it was. You’re completely wrong here. Prior to Lamar taking over the Ravens rushing attack was ranked 31st in the league through 9 weeks of play. Stanley, Yanda, and Andrews were all starters at that point in 2018 (Only Yanda would ultimately make the pro bowl that season) just FYI. Now in the 7 games that followed, the Ravens would go on to average over 200 rushing yards a game, by far surpassing any of the rushing averages of other teams in the league over that time period. The squad would ultimately end up just short of surpassing the Seahawks for the #1 team rushing crown, finishing second place in the league. So Lamar’s impact was transforming the 31st ranked rushing attack into the 2nd ranked rushing attack in 7 weeks time. He did this with only one Pro Bowler on offense, Marshal Yanda.

Then the following season Lamar took much of that same talent plus Ingram and a hobbled Hollywood and transformed it from a middle of the pack offense to one of the top 10 offenses of all time and the most prolific rushing attack in NFL history.

You can’t play the “I’m just telling it like it is” card yet not also acknowledge just how mediocre the Ravens offense was prior to Lamar’s arrival. Flacco started all 16 games in 2017 and led the 21st best offense according to FO and the offense ranked 27th in yards. It could be argued that even mediocre might be too strong a word. Whereas in Lamar’s first full season as a starter, the offense climbed to #1 in the league.

Please. The Ravens offensive struggles in 2018 were because they were carrying a bottom 5 QB through the first 9 games of the season, Flacco. They were on pace for the 17th rank in scoring and 15th rank in yards, despite having to carry him. If they had anything remotely resembling average QB play in 2018 through the first 9 games of the season, they would have been a top 10 offense.

Here’s what some of these “mediocre players” who made the Pro Bowl for the Ravens in 2019 were in 2018:

Andrews and Brown were freaking rookies.

Rickard was only a 2nd year starter who missed 6 games.

You suppose these guys were just young ascending players, you know, like Lamar, instead of average Joes being drug to greatness by Lamar the great??? Considering these guys were acquired by one of, if not THE greatest GM of all time, I’m inclined to think it’s probably the former.

Other guys:

Ingram was an 8 time veteran who had already made 2 pro-bowls and had a career average of 4.5 yards per carry.

Yanda may very well be a Hall of Famer. If not he’s at least borderline.

Stanley is about the only guy you could kind of argue would be nothing without Lamar, but even that I’d be skeptical of. He WAS a top 6 pick for a reason.

Quite frankly, I think it’s pretty lame y’all are trying to crap all over a talented team and talented coaching staff to prop up Lamar.

 

Edited by Archimedes

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6 hours ago, VanS said:

Actually we saw this in college.  Both Lamar and Mahomes were unheralded 3-star recruits.  Both went to mediocre Power 5 programs in the same conference as established juggernauts.  Lamar ended up taking his mediocre program to as high as the #3 team in the country deep into November of the 2016 college football season and was in conversation to make the College Football playoff that year.  Something nobody saw coming for a program like Louisville.  Mahomes on the other hand never took his mediocre program to unprecedented heights in college.  He did what most other Texas Tech QBs have done in the past.  Put up big numbers on a mediocre team.

Lamar Jackson has a history of carrying subpar talent to incredible heights.  Mahomes doesn't.  Once again this doesn't mean Mahomes isn't all-time great.  It just means he doesn't have the same unique skill set Lamar does.  Mahomes has a skill set that is typical of most QBs. 

Lamar had a better college record because his defense didn’t give up 44 points a game. Both led their college offenses to 42ppg+, but Lamar never had a defense that allowed more than 27ppg. Even in college, Lamar had the better defense 

2019 was the first time in Mahomes college/NFL career he didn’t have to carry a bottom 5 defense. And he won a Super Bowl.

From 1994-2017, Kansas City has 1 playoff win, the same number as the Browns. Mahomes took a mediocre NFL franchise and led them to the Super Bowl. 

Before Mahomes, our “great talent” failed constantly in big games. They blew a 21-3 lead to the Titans, and lost 18-16 to a Steeler team that couldn’t score a touchdown, all in Arrowhead. Mahomes wasn’t drafted to “take us to the playoffs.” He was drafted to win us a SB. And he succeeded where so many failed.

As a Chief fan, going 14-2 with ho-hum offensive weapons isn’t that impressive. I remember when Steve Bono took a sorry group of receivers and went 13-3 only to lose 10-7 in the first playoff game back in 1995. Lamar Jackson had a great season but it’s not unheard of, it’s pretty similar to 1990 Randall Cunningham. While Randall was a great weapon, he never elevated his team to a SB

 

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1 hour ago, Archimedes said:

Please. The Ravens offensive struggles in 2018 were because they were carrying a bottom 5 QB through the first 9 games of the season, Flacco. They were on pace for the 17th rank in scoring and 15th rank in yards, despite having to carry him. If they had anything remotely resembling average QB play in 2018 through the first 9 games of the season, they would have been a top 10 offense.

 

Quote

Synonyms for mediocre

Synonyms 

So it’s almost as if the every conceivable synonym for “mediocre” places it as being average to below average. Almost like what an offense that is on pace for what you would claim would have been the 17th and 15th rated in scoring and yards respectively.

You claim that Flacco was a bottom 5 QB in 2018, please find me evidence of such. He was on pace to lead a mediocre offensive result, not a terrible result. His WRs were Michael Crabtree (now out of the league), Willie Snead (meh), and Jon Brown (pretty good). He was dealing with two rookie TEs as his main options. His weapons weren’t anything special, but even considering that Footballs Outsiders had him as the 18th ranked QB in 2018 based off of DVOA.

1 hour ago, Archimedes said:

Here’s what some of these “mediocre players” who made the Pro Bowl for the Ravens in 2019 were in 2018:

Andrews and Brown were freaking rookies.

Rickard was only a 2nd year starter who missed 6 games.

You suppose these guys were just young ascending players, you know, like Lamar, instead of average Joes being drug to greatness by Lamar the great??? Considering these guys were acquired by one of, if not THE greatest GM of all time, I’m inclined to think it’s probably the former.

I didn’t claim that they weren’t rookies, nor did I claim anywhere that Andrews isn’t a great player and a top 5 TE in the game based off of his 2019. Orlando Brown is a high quality starting right tackle, but prior to Jackson in the lineup he wasn't as reliable in pass protection. Patrick Ricard was struggling to make the team in our DL rotation and was switched to part time FB in 2018 when we went to the Lamar packages. Without Lamar we ran far more single backfield plays and it’s certainly safe to say that Lamar has had a direct impact on Ricard’s opportunity to thrive in this league.

So yeah I won’t fall for some sort of strawman that seeks to claim that I have somehow denigrated the talent within Baltimore for Lamar. What I stated was a fact. All of those players were in the lineup and were on pace to contribute to a mediocre result... Lamar uplifted the final result in 2018, which was the point.

1 hour ago, Archimedes said:

Other guys:

Ingram was an 8 time veteran who had already made 2 pro-bowls and had a career average of 4.5 yards per carry.

Yanda may very well be a Hall of Famer. If not he’s at least borderline.

Stanley is about the only guy you could kind of argue would be nothing without Lamar, but even that I’d be skeptical of. He WAS a top 6 pick for a reason.

Quite frankly, I think it’s pretty lame y’all are trying to crap all over a talented team and talented coaching staff to prop up Lamar.

Okay? I listed Ingram and Yanda already as teammates that were pro bowlers prior to Lamar’s impact. So what’s your point?

Stanley was a fringe pro bowl caliber talent prior to Lamar but transformed into an All Pro option due in part to Lamar’s impact.

So you know what I find lame? That fact that you literally are repeating things that I have already stated as if it was somehow some great point you had conjured, that you tried to build strawman arguments acting as though I’ve spoken untruths about the nature of the Ravens players prior to Lamar in the lineup, and lastly I find it lame that you can’t admit that you were wrong in saving that the Ravens offense prior to Lamar hadn’t proven to be mediocre... but then post stats that prove that they indeed were mediocre. 😂

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I just think it’s weak that Lamar won the MVP unanimously as the youngest QB to ever win the award and was voted on by the players as the best player in the league, yet he’s somehow not objectively in the conversation as the best player in the league legitimately.

Do I have Lamar ABOVE Mahomes? I don’t at this point. However the notion that others couldn’t legitimately find Lamar to be superior to Mahomes is ridiculous. Do I give Mahomes the edge, yes, until Jackson does better in the playoffs... but for a regular season game? I’ll take Lamar in a close race. So if someone is very bullish on Lamar and his chances to drastically improve on the post season showings he’s had to this point, then I don’t see how it’s disrespectful to Mahomes that Jackson could be viewed as better.

Just like I don’t find it disrespectful when someone feels like Brees, Rodgers, or Watson are rated ahead of Jackson. It’s there opinion and it’s also likely based off of their preferred type of QB. Any QB in the “elite” conversation is comparable in my mind but hey to each their own.

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On 7/31/2020 at 10:33 PM, VanS said:

Football isn't played in a vacuum.

 

That's a relief.  Football would really "suck" if it were played in a vacuum.  :P

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2 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

I just think it’s weak that Lamar won the MVP unanimously as the youngest QB to ever win the award and was voted on by the players as the best player in the league, yet he’s somehow not objectively in the conversation as the best player in the league legitimately.

Do I have Lamar ABOVE Mahomes? I don’t at this point. However the notion that others couldn’t legitimately find Lamar to be superior to Mahomes is ridiculous. Do I give Mahomes the edge, yes, until Jackson does better in the playoffs... but for a regular season game? I’ll take Lamar in a close race. So if someone is very bullish on Lamar and his chances to drastically improve on the post season showings he’s had to this point, then I don’t see how it’s disrespectful to Mahomes that Jackson could be viewed as better.

Just like I don’t find it disrespectful when someone feels like Brees, Rodgers, or Watson are rated ahead of Jackson. It’s there opinion and it’s also likely based off of their preferred type of QB. Any QB in the “elite” conversation is comparable in my mind but hey to each their own.

If you wanna argue that Lamar was better in the regular season last year then fine. You would find very few that disagree with that. But that was in part due to Mahomes’ injury. With that being said, there isn’t an argument to Lamar being a better QB than Mahomes. There just isn’t I’m afraid. That’s not indictment against Lamar. Mahomes is just that special of a player. Mahomes can still improve too. Not saying he’s not gonna be putting up numbers every season like he did in 2018 but Mahomes is far from the finished product. Lamar can absolutely get better but I just don’t see him reaching Mahomes levels. 

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44 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

Lamar can absolutely get better but I just don’t see him reaching Mahomes levels. 

Eh... levels and ratings are and will be more transient than that. Mahomes level is the level Mahomes plays at. Lamar was the best player in football over the span regular season, and it was a historically great season. It's highly doubtful Mahomes would have been if he didn't get hurt week 7. Only a few offenses have ever average over 3 points per drive like Ravens did with Lamar. Brady is the only QB who did it twice. Mahomes did it in 18. I think Mahomes can do it again, but I would bet heavily against it being anything close to an every year thing. Long winded way of saying, Lamar was playing at a level that is comparable to best seasons for the best QBs ever, so he played at Mahomes level last year.

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12 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Lol.

I’m not betting against Josh or commenting on the offense’s talent. 

I am pointing out your incorrect statements in regards to Allen or the offense carrying the team to the playoffs and the offense giving the defense time to rest. 

Never said the offense carried them.  I said Josh Allen was the most important reason for their success because I doubt there are 5 other QBs who could have done as much as he did with that offense given the lack of talent Buffalo had on that side of the ball.

I'm saying Josh Allen did the most with the least.  And if he didn't do what he did with that terrible supporting cast then the Bills go 6-10 instead of 10-6.  

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