Dessie Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 7 hours ago, Darbsk said: Maybe we're waiting for cuts or keeping our powder dry to get better value, not really sure but I would think it prudent to get guys into camp ASAP as who knows what could happen with Covid and precautions might evolve so the more time acclimating and learning the scheme would seem to be beneficial. I would think that free agents are at about their lowest value so dont think we'll save money by leaving it any longer...... Honestly I can't see Mayock making too many more moves, possibly one or two end of roster types but no players who'll have a real impact. Just a feeling given the leasurely way we've been approaching things! Think we started last season with 4 LBs on the roster, might wait to pick up a vet after week 1 when their whole salary isn’t guaranteed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 21 minutes ago, Dessie said: Think we started last season with 4 LBs on the roster, might wait to pick up a vet after week 1 when their whole salary isn’t guaranteed. That’s definitely a possibility. Personally i really dislike this method. I think it’s better to have 2 veterans in camp (who learn the system) and compete for 1 roster spot.... even if it is guaranteed for the year. There’s a lot of value to having the player with the team for 6 weeks or so versus having to learn the defense essentially on the fly. if we’re that frugal with money maybe we should have given William Stanback 75k, Nick Usher 25k, Nick Bowers 100k, plus various Veteran Camp Bodies like Eric Kush up to 137.5k. Or what about giving Jordy Nelson a 3.6M bonus and then cutting him a month later. We’re often penny wise but dollar foolish. This is one of those times, IMO. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nfl.com/_amp/jordy-nelson-cut-after-one-season-with-raiders-0ap3000001022744 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said: That’s definitely a possibility. Personally i really dislike this method. I think it’s better to have 2 veterans in camp (who learn the system) and compete for 1 roster spot.... even if it is guaranteed for the year. There’s a lot of value to having the player with the team for 6 weeks or so versus having to learn the defense essentially on the fly. if we’re that frugal with money maybe we should have given William Stanback 75k, Nick Usher 25k, Nick Bowers 100k, plus various Veteran Camp Bodies like Eric Kush up to 137.5k. Or what about giving Jordy Nelson a 3.6M bonus and then cutting him a month later. We’re often penny wise but dollar foolish. This is one of those times, IMO. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nfl.com/_amp/jordy-nelson-cut-after-one-season-with-raiders-0ap3000001022744 Maybe we sign Burfict after week 1. He is the only player I can think of that would be able to come in with no camp, play SLB, backup MLB, and give the team all he has until the league decides they do not want him to play anymore. He still gets to play and we do not have to worry about cap or salary if he is suspended again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dessie Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said: That’s definitely a possibility. Personally i really dislike this method. I think it’s better to have 2 veterans in camp (who learn the system) and compete for 1 roster spot.... even if it is guaranteed for the year. There’s a lot of value to having the player with the team for 6 weeks or so versus having to learn the defense essentially on the fly. if we’re that frugal with money maybe we should have given William Stanback 75k, Nick Usher 25k, Nick Bowers 100k, plus various Veteran Camp Bodies like Eric Kush up to 137.5k. Or what about giving Jordy Nelson a 3.6M bonus and then cutting him a month later. We’re often penny wise but dollar foolish. This is one of those times, IMO. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nfl.com/_amp/jordy-nelson-cut-after-one-season-with-raiders-0ap3000001022744 There were rumours that Nelson wanted to retire midway through the season, looked like we paid him his full money to see out the season. Mack trade, Cooper traded, Derrick Johnson walked out, Irvin was waived, Rodgers-Cromartie retired, the FAs we had signed weren’t working out, everything was going wrong. Edited August 10, 2020 by Dessie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 36 minutes ago, Dessie said: There were rumours that Nelson wanted to retire midway through the season, looked like we paid him his full money to see out the season. Mack trade, Cooper traded, Derrick Johnson walked out, Irvin was waived, Rodgers-Cromartie retired, the FAs we had signed weren’t working out, everything was going wrong. With all of that happening what was the constant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Dessie said: There were rumours that Nelson wanted to retire midway through the season, looked like we paid him his full money to see out the season. Mack trade, Cooper traded, Derrick Johnson walked out, Irvin was waived, Rodgers-Cromartie retired, the FAs we had signed weren’t working out, everything was going wrong. Then we should have let him retire. I assume if he retires then that means the guaranteed salary remaining on the season is void. We weren’t a good team and it was obvious 1) we weren’t gonna make the playoffs and needed a rebuild 2) Nelson wasn’t playing well. I don’t see what paying him half of his next year salary to convince him to show up the rest of the year achieved. I’m sure he really gave us his all too (sarcasm). it was just a bad move by Reggie imo. He was always very soft when it came to things like this.... or trades.... he always crumpled. BTW: we didn’t just pay Nelson “his full money”.... we paid him 50% of next years too Knowing he wouldn’t play. Edited August 11, 2020 by jimkelly02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante9876 Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 16 hours ago, jimkelly02 said: We also don’t have the offense in ‘20 that we had in ‘02...:: that ‘02 offense could have carried last years defense into the playoffs. And while I think Abrams, Crosby, Ferrell have very high potential they are on the level that Rod + Charles Woodson were on. Plus we had a great supporting cast with Barton, Romo, Tory James, Parrella + Sam Adams, Rod Coleman. But that is the way the team is built. The offense is suppose to be carrying and semi average defense. We got the highest paid oline. A good tightend. A good rb, a bunch of speed at wrs. The offense is suppose to lead the way. They cant be having games like they did vs jets, bengals and broncos. This defense imo will be good enough to keep pace if offense is scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 11 hours ago, Dessie said: There were rumours that Nelson wanted to retire midway through the season, looked like we paid him his full money to see out the season. Mack trade, Cooper traded, Derrick Johnson walked out, Irvin was waived, Rodgers-Cromartie retired, the FAs we had signed weren’t working out, everything was going wrong. Probably the lowest I've ever been following the team, that year was a complete disaster from start to finish and the loss to the 49ers was probably the worst game I've ever seen us play, including the 50 pointers to the Rams and Bills....... just felt so futile that year with players literally quitting mid year 😁 we made some really head scratching moves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 7 hours ago, dante9876 said: But that is the way the team is built. The offense is suppose to be carrying and semi average defense. We got the highest paid oline. A good tightend. A good rb, a bunch of speed at wrs. The offense is suppose to lead the way. They cant be having games like they did vs jets, bengals and broncos. This defense imo will be good enough to keep pace if offense is scoring. I wrote a nice detailed post and it got lost when I hit submit..... I hate when that happens. So.... quickly: Yes the offense is built for the offense to win the games, most teams are built that way due to the league moving towards more passing and scoring. But..... even with the revamped WR core and it’s new speed, this offense is a ball control, not “high scoring offense”. That means we’re likely to be in a lot of games that are within 1 score going into Q4. So the defense is likely to going to have to come up with a stop to the end game OR get the ball back so the offense can can launch a game winning drive or run out the clock if we’re already up. The offense just won’t be so high scoring so as to give the defense a “large margin of error”. And when we play against teams with high scoring offenses we’re going to need the offense to score more than usual, as well as the defense to step up. And as much as I support Carr, we all know when things take a downward turn they turn pretty hard sometimes. We can’t have scenarios where we’re down 7 in Q2 and Carr throws an INT and the next drive we go 3-and-out.... halftime..... and we’re down 28 by the time Carr gets the ball again. We’ll need the defense to get stops and turnovers. Simply put we might not need the defense to win us win most games but they’re going to have to help the offense win games. Unless a team has an offense like KC that can score regularly in the 30s and 40s.... then it needs a solid defense, one that can do its part to win games..... win games by getting stops and getting the back to the offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 (edited) @dante9876 Speaking of how the teams built..... I’d actually say the team has had nearly equal resources put into the offense and defense. I’d say it’s 55% offense, 45% defense. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/las-vegas-raiders/positional/ while the cap spending is 60% offense, 40% defense the draft capital is the inverse. Mayock’s two drafts have allocated a good bit more draft capital towards the defense. ('19+'20 Drafts) *= was waived Rd: DEF OFF 1 Ferrell, Abrams, Arnette Jacobs, Ruggs 2 Mullen 3 Muse Bowden, Edwards 4 Crosby, Johnson, Robertson Simpson, Moreau 5 Renfrow 6 7 Bell* And if you look more in-depth at the Actual value (from the draft day trade chart) of each selection.... D O Ferrell #4 1800 740 Jacobs #24 Abrams #27 680 1250 Ruggs #12 Arnette #19 875 Mullen #40 500 Muse #100 96 190 Bowden #80 185 Edwards #81 Crosby #106 80 37 Moreau #137 Johnson #129 42 74 Simpson #109 Robertson #139 36 30.2 Renfrow #149 Quentin Bell #230 1 TOTAL: 4110 2506.2 62.10% 37.90% I think its more accurate to say this team has been constructed to have a balanced offense + defense. Yes, it’s a ball controlled offense centered around a dominate run game and solid protection for the QB have a high completion rate concentrating on short and intermediate routes mainly, albeit has the deep to throw deep on occasion. But it also is a team that will (hopefully) have a defense that won’t dominate but is capable of getting stops /TO’s and giving the offense a shot to win the game. Edited August 11, 2020 by jimkelly02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 Back to Bryce Hager.... just a little pet peeve I have: whenever we sign someone like this or discuss some UDFA that someone wants to make the team they say “he can be a key STer” and this worth his roster spot.... usually over a player who a capable defender. 1) just cuz the player is young and athletic and plays WR, LB, or S doesn’t mean theyll be a good STer. In fact, most STers are super athletic guys. Wilber isn’t an impressive athlete, nor is NE’s Matthew Slater, etc etc. being a good STer is a pretty unique skill set and not something fans can project off an athletic profile. 2) Roughly 20% of nfl players are ST plays and even a “ST only” player like Leavitt only played 62% of all ST plays (2nd most on the team to Wilber’s 303) for 262 snaps. Leavitt only played 32 defensive snaps. I personally think it’s more valuable to have a guy like Curtis Riley who can give you 275 defensive snaps and 262 ST snaps. Now, Riley isn’t a great FS but his value was far more than Leavitt because he can play STs and be a backup S. My point being, we don’t need “ST only players” like Hager, Leavitt, etc. there are plenty of capable backup LBs and S’s that are good STers. You have to be able to do both, unless your at the MatthewSlater level of ST plays. thats why I don’t see the value of Hager on the active roster. He simply isn’t a capable LB, he can’t be plugged into the defense of an injury occurs and play at reasonable/ competent level. Sure, he may be a good STer but there are plenty of guys out there that can give us both and his level of STs isn’t exceptional enough to warrant a roster spot. If we were to carry Littleton, Kwiatkoski, and a FA signing as our starters plus Morrow, Muse, and Wilber/White/etc as our backups we’d still get enough ST snaps out of Morrow and Muse plus Our backup S’s (heath and Harris) are both Core STers too. Backups have to be capable of playing defense and ST, IMO. We simply can’t carry 6 LBs and only have Littleton, Kwiatkoski plus Morrow as the only capable LBers on the team. (muse is too raw to be included in this group, he should only see the defense in a coverage LB, very specific scheme/match-up role). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble_Beast Posted August 11, 2020 Author Share Posted August 11, 2020 I was going say we should sign Curtis Riley back, but just seen he signed with the Steelers. I think he will stick for cheap on a well run Steelers organization. Seemed like Riley and Compton were no brainers as training camp competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dessie Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 11 hours ago, Darbsk said: Probably the lowest I've ever been following the team, that year was a complete disaster from start to finish and the loss to the 49ers was probably the worst game I've ever seen us play, including the 50 pointers to the Rams and Bills....... just felt so futile that year with players literally quitting mid year 😁 we made some really head scratching moves It was a car crash of a season and wouldn’t have looked good for future FAs. Probably why we had to pay Nelson to stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 22 minutes ago, Dessie said: It was a car crash of a season and wouldn’t have looked good for future FAs. Probably why we had to pay Nelson to stay. I don’t buy the “we have to pay Nelson 11M, not the agreed upon 7M, because he’ll bad talk us and we won’t be able to sign FAs”. 1) everyone knew we were a total mess as an organization 2) Nelson took that extra money, played 75% til the season was over, and immediately bashed us. Paying him hush money didn’t accomplish anything. If he or more importantly his agent wanted to tell other players we were a hot mess he still could.... he didn’t sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement. 3) that’s basically extortion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 On 8/10/2020 at 2:10 PM, drfrey13 said: With all of that happening what was the constant? Jon Gruden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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