Hall of Fame Coaches

[RandyMossIsBoss]

BB and Reid are locks.

 

Payton is pretty close. SB ring and lots of wins, and he’s an offensive mind who played a big role in Brees’s record shattering career. I’d call him a lock if not for bountygate.

 

Carrol, Harbaugh, Tomlin and McCarthy are next group of guys who definitely could if they pad their resume. Either another SB or a ton of wins.

 

Kubiak honestly deserves to get in, even if we are gonna give him 0 credit for the 2015 SB. He was a key cog in the Broncos late 90s run, and IMO the real offensive mind fueling that zone run success, as he repeated it in Houston while Shanny struggled without him. Speaking of Houston, being a franchise’s 1st ever successful coach has to count for something. 

 

Gruden would need a real good run in Oakland to get into HOF discussion. His SB has to be somewhat “tainted” by it being off of Dungy’s defense (although the improvements he brought to offense were for sure what got them over hump), and slowly going downhill after he took over. Doesn’t look like that run will happen.

 

Pederson, the other active SB coach, needs another decade+ of playoff success  or another ring to be in convo.

[Ray Reed]

1 hour ago, Silver said:

Actually, it is true.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/10/john-harbaugh-im-glad-ravens-broke-ben-roethlisbergers-nose/

On face value that’s true. But look at how he originally phrased that...”he told his entire locker room he was glad big ben got hurt” has a MUCH different connotation than John Harbaugh talking about a broken nose to the media after the game in the context of how tough big ben is lol. That quote makes it sound like we tore a ligament in big ben that actually kept him out of football and he used it as a rallying cry in the locker room, not answering a question about a broken nose to the media and praising the opponent’s toughness...

Certainly not the best moment of the man’s career, though,  I’ll eat crow on/give you that! 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Ray Reed

[SkippyX]

I like your take on Kubiak.

There is a big hole in the HoF for assistant coaches.

• Buddy Ryan (from the III Jets to the XX Bears)
• George Seifert is a no-brainer if you include his work as an assistant
• Richie Petitbon as a player (48 picks) and 3x SB DC is also an obvious HoF lock if the voters knew what they were doing.
• Tom Flores as a player/ assistant/ head coach with 4 rings would be another.

Edited August 15, 2020 by SkippyX

[Malik]

John Harbaugh is only 57. I don't know if he has plans to retire soon or early, but his age and the fact that the Ravens are already a very good team now mean's he can probably rack up regular season wins alone to sneak into the top 10 or 15 in all time coaching wins even if he doesn't have much great playoff success from here on out.

Pete Carroll probably has significantly less years than every other coaching option, but just 1 or 2 more great post-season runs and he's a lock

[Soggust]

2 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

That’s not “literally what my argument boils down to”, lol, did you read it?

It has nothing to do with # of playoff wins, even though i acknowledged that later in my post.

My argument “literally boils down to” the fact that Tomlin has gone 9 of his 13 seasons in Pittsburgh either missing the playoffs or losing his first playoff game. All of 4 seasons in Tomlin’s Steelers career have amounted to a playoff win. 

He’s a good coach. My “he’s not the top 5 guy most people make him out to be” comment still stands.

Don’t warp the crux of my argument, thanks.

They have both been to the playoffs 8 times.

Tomlin wins a playoff game 4 times. 
Harbaugh wins a playoff game 6 times. 

Your argument comes down to him essentially winning two more early-round playoff games. If the Steelers win those games, they are both sporting the same playoff record and Tomlin clearly has the superior resume. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Even still, considering they didn't win those games, it's a super niche thing and small sample size to judge a coaches resume on.

Curious to know which coaches you are ranking ahead of Tomlin?

[SkippyX]

I don't think there is much room between Tomlin, Harbaugh, Payton, and Carroll.

Rank them however you like but all are short right now.

What they do in the next 5-10 years will determine if they are HoVG or HoF.

I wonder if Carroll costing his team the XLIX title and the Falcons playoff game by being too smart for his own good will have any factor in voting.

[Soggust]

5 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

I don't think there is much room between Tomlin, Harbaugh, Payton, and Carroll.

Rank them however you like but all are short right now.

What they do in the next 5-10 years will determine if they are HoVG or HoF.

I wonder if Carroll costing his team the XLIX title and the Falcons playoff game by being too smart for his own good will have any factor in voting.

I feel like Payton is just a notch below the others. Not far. Not flipping tables upset if someone has him above, but I'm just not sure I see a good argument for him above any of the other three.

[lancerman]

Before we call coaches locks let’s acknowledge that it took a 100 year special committee to get Johnson and Cowher in. 

[Ray Reed]

18 hours ago, Soggust said:

They have both been to the playoffs 8 times.

Tomlin wins a playoff game 4 times. 
Harbaugh wins a playoff game 6 times. 

Your argument comes down to him essentially winning two more early-round playoff games. If the Steelers win those games, they are both sporting the same playoff record and Tomlin clearly has the superior resume. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Even still, considering they didn't win those games, it's a super niche thing and small sample size to judge a coaches resume on.

Curious to know which coaches you are ranking ahead of Tomlin?

You don’t know how else to explain what to me, exactly? 

The fact that IF Tomlin would have won more in the playoffs he would have a better resume?

I mean...yeah? That’s kind of the point? The fact is that he didn’t, so he doesn’t have a better resume?

Again - for the last time because we’re just not getting anywhere with this.

Tomlin has coached 13 seasons. In 4 of those seasons his team has won a playoff game. I don’t consider that very good. In your weird hypothetical world where he does have more than 4 seasons in which he’s won a playoff game? Sure, he’s a better/more successful coach in that scenario you’ve created. 

I don’t know how else to explain it to you.

[Soggust]

1 hour ago, Ray Reed said:

You don’t know how else to explain what to me, exactly? 

The fact that IF Tomlin would have won more in the playoffs he would have a better resume?

I mean...yeah? That’s kind of the point? The fact is that he didn’t, so he doesn’t have a better resume?

Again - for the last time because we’re just not getting anywhere with this.

Tomlin has coached 13 seasons. In 4 of those seasons his team has won a playoff game. I don’t consider that very good. In your weird hypothetical world where he does have more than 4 seasons in which he’s won a playoff game? Sure, he’s a better/more successful coach in that scenario you’ve created. 

I don’t know how else to explain it to you.

How many Superbowls did Harbaugh get to with those extra seasons of winning playoff games? Oh, one less than Tomlin?

-------------------------

You're specifically knocking him because the Steelers were bounced under Tomlin in the first round (3 WC / 1 Div) four times. Otherwise, Tomlin and Harbaugh have been to the playoffs the same amount of times (Tomlin has coached one extra season and missed playoffs though so I guess that makes him worse despite a better reg season win %).

The Steelers lost those games by 2, 7(OT), 13, 3 points.

The Ravens were bounced from the first round (1 WC / 1 Div) twice under Harbaugh (Lost by 3, 11 points)

You can take those two extra early-round wins. I'll take the guy who has 2 Superbowl appearances opposed to 1. I'll take the guy who has 15 extra wins with the same amount of losses (.037% better win%) and has never had a losing season. I'll put them both in the top 5 no problem because they are both great coaches.

-------------------------

I'm interested in the others you have ahead of Tomlin. There's an argument for Bill, Reid, Harbaugh and maybe Carroll, but even that has Tomlin at 5. It's a much more difficult argument for Peyton. I'm not sure who else has the resume to put him out of the top 5?

[Ray Reed]

16 minutes ago, Soggust said:

How many Superbowls did Harbaugh get to with those extra seasons of winning playoff games? Oh, one less than Tomlin?

-------------------------

You're specifically knocking him because the Steelers were bounced under Tomlin in the first round (3 WC / 1 Div) four times. Otherwise, Tomlin and Harbaugh have been to the playoffs the same amount of times (Tomlin has coached one extra season and missed playoffs though so I guess that makes him worse despite a better reg season win %).

The Steelers lost those games by 2, 7(OT), 13, 3 points.

The Ravens were bounced from the first round (1 WC / 1 Div) twice under Harbaugh (Lost by 3, 11 points)

You can take those two extra early-round wins. I'll take the guy who has 2 Superbowl appearances opposed to 1. I'll take the guy who has 15 extra wins with the same amount of losses (.037% better win%) and has never had a losing season. I'll put them both in the top 5 no problem because they are both great coaches.

-------------------------

I'm interested in the others you have ahead of Tomlin. There's an argument for Bill, Reid, Harbaugh and maybe Carroll, but even that has Tomlin at 5. It's a much more difficult argument for Peyton. I'm not sure who else has the resume to put him out of the top 5?

Again - your argument is built around a whole lot of “otherwises”. 

“The Steelers have failed to make the playoffs or win a playoff game in nearly 70% of their seasons under Tomlin but OTHERWISE...”

Sorry, but that’s a big factor when evaluating coaches. What they’re able to accomplish on a year-to-year basis, over the entirety of their careers. The fact that the team he coaches has failed to win a playoff game or even make the playoffs 9/13 times - an overwhelming majority of his career - matters. You can keep brushing that aside but it matters - a lot. 

It’s fine that you would take the guy with 15 more regular season wins in 1 more year of coaching, and another super bowl appearance. I get that. I don’t necessarily agree but I can at least see where you’re coming from. But it kind of boggles my mind that you outright can’t see why anyone would say “4/13 seasons this guy has coached he’s won a playoff game, that seems low for a guy people almost unanimously put in the top 5”. 

Like, really? You can’t see how that success rate factors in to someone’s view of a coach’s abilities? I find that incredibly obtuse, I really do. 

FTR coaches I would have definitively ahead of Tomlin heading into 2020...

Bill

Reid

Carroll

Harbaugh

Pederson 

Payton (same playoff record as Tomlin but the unit he’s responsible for - the offense - has never taken a nose dive in New Orleans the way Tomlin’s expertise/background [the defense] has taken a nose dive in Pittsburgh at times)

So i’d probably have Tomlin at 7. Again - i’m not arguing that Tomlin is even a league average coach. Clearly he’s in the top 10ish of NFL coaches. But - for the last time hopefully, because frankly it’s getting old typing again and again - I can’t in good faith put a guy who’s won a playoff game in only 4/13 seasons (2 of those seasons coming in his first 4 years, in 2008/2011) in my top 5.

Is what it is I suppose.

 

[Soggust]

22 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Again - your argument is built around a whole lot of “otherwises”. 

“The Steelers have failed to make the playoffs or win a playoff game in nearly 70% of their seasons under Tomlin but OTHERWISE...”

Sorry, but that’s a big factor when evaluating coaches. What they’re able to accomplish on a year-to-year basis, over the entirety of their careers. The fact that the team he coaches has failed to win a playoff game or even make the playoffs 9/13 times - an overwhelming majority of his career - matters. You can keep brushing that aside but it matters - a lot. 

It’s fine that you would take the guy with 15 more regular season wins in 1 more year of coaching, and another super bowl appearance. I get that. I don’t necessarily agree but I can at least see where you’re coming from. But it kind of boggles my mind that you outright can’t see why anyone would say “4/13 seasons this guy has coached he’s won a playoff game, that seems low for a guy people almost unanimously put in the top 5”. 

Like, really? You can’t see how that success rate factors in to someone’s view of a coach’s abilities? I find that incredibly obtuse, I really do. 

FTR coaches I would have definitively ahead of Tomlin heading into 2020...

Bill

Reid

Carroll

Harbaugh

Pederson 

Payton (same playoff record as Tomlin but the unit he’s responsible for - the offense - has never taken a nose dive in New Orleans the way Tomlin’s expertise/background [the defense] has taken a nose dive in Pittsburgh at times)

So i’d probably have Tomlin at 7. Again - i’m not arguing that Tomlin is even a league average coach. Clearly he’s in the top 10ish of NFL coaches. But - for the last time hopefully, because frankly it’s getting old typing again and again - I can’t in good faith put a guy who’s won a playoff game in only 4/13 seasons (2 of those seasons coming in his first 4 years, in 2008/2011) in my top 5.

Is what it is I suppose.

 

Because winning a playoff game is a small sample size and is subject to variance. He's had 13 opportunities and failed to do so exactly twice less than two coaches you have ranked ahead of him. Even ignoring the fact that 3/4 of his losses were SUPER close, it seems like a very niche thing to hang your hat on while ignoring more relevant statistics like Wins, Win % and Conference Championships (Super Bowl Trips).

But considering you have Pederson ahead of him (who I love as a Chiefs fan, but clearly doesn't have the resume that Tomlin does at this point), I will just agree to disagree with your evaluations of head coaches. 

[Archimedes]

6 hours ago, lancerman said:

Before we call coaches locks let’s acknowledge that it took a 100 year special committee to get Johnson and Cowher in. 

Yeah, for whatever reason it traditionally been hard for HCs to get into the HOF. Then Jimmy Johnson got in and I was like “wth????!!!” 

Don’t get me wrong, JJ was a fine coach but did he really deserve to get in over:

Seifert, Coryell, Schottenheimer, Knox, Reeves, or Holmgren? 

Personally I would have liked to see Holmgren and Coryell go in out of that list. I would have put them both in over Cowher and definitely JJ.

[Archimedes]

4 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

Again - your argument is built around a whole lot of “otherwises”. 

“The Steelers have failed to make the playoffs or win a playoff game in nearly 70% of their seasons under Tomlin but OTHERWISE...”

Sorry, but that’s a big factor when evaluating coaches. What they’re able to accomplish on a year-to-year basis, over the entirety of their careers. The fact that the team he coaches has failed to win a playoff game or even make the playoffs 9/13 times - an overwhelming majority of his career - matters. You can keep brushing that aside but it matters - a lot. 

It’s fine that you would take the guy with 15 more regular season wins in 1 more year of coaching, and another super bowl appearance. I get that. I don’t necessarily agree but I can at least see where you’re coming from. But it kind of boggles my mind that you outright can’t see why anyone would say “4/13 seasons this guy has coached he’s won a playoff game, that seems low for a guy people almost unanimously put in the top 5”. 

Like, really? You can’t see how that success rate factors in to someone’s view of a coach’s abilities? I find that incredibly obtuse, I really do. 

FTR coaches I would have definitively ahead of Tomlin heading into 2020...

Bill

Reid

Carroll

Harbaugh

Pederson 

Payton (same playoff record as Tomlin but the unit he’s responsible for - the offense - has never taken a nose dive in New Orleans the way Tomlin’s expertise/background [the defense] has taken a nose dive in Pittsburgh at times)

So i’d probably have Tomlin at 7. Again - i’m not arguing that Tomlin is even a league average coach. Clearly he’s in the top 10ish of NFL coaches. But - for the last time hopefully, because frankly it’s getting old typing again and again - I can’t in good faith put a guy who’s won a playoff game in only 4/13 seasons (2 of those seasons coming in his first 4 years, in 2008/2011) in my top 5.

Is what it is I suppose.

 

Pederson ahead of Tomlin is a massive stretch. Saying he is “definitively” better is absurd. Tomlin basically has a slightly better version of the same resume that Payton and Carroll have, so I don’t know what kind of mental gymnastics you’re doing to put Carroll “definitively” ahead of Tomlin either.

[Shady Slim]

On 8/14/2020 at 11:07 AM, diamondbull424 said:

I think Harbaugh is close. If he wins another SB with Lamar it’s a done deal. Carrol is also very close. I wouldn’t have Tomlin as a lock, but he’s closer than Harbaugh and Carrol at this point. One more notable playoffs moment or division crown should do it.

Sean Payton is in that same cluster but furthest away. If he can recalibrate after Brees and build another contender, he’s likely in. Otherwise he needs a few more divisional crowns. 

Reid’s incredible coaching tree and achievements ensures he’s a lock. Only thing he was missing was the SB ring and now that he has that it’s just icing on the cake at this point.

edit: Oh and BB is slam dunk in unless he has another crazy cheating scandal that ends up being the final straw.

this is the correct take