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What current QBs are in your Hall of Very Good

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2 hours ago, SkippyX said:

I think Rivers having a good statistical season (top 10 level) and winning a playoff game or two where he plays well is enough to push him over.

 

Warner is a no doubt HoF player and Wilson is on his way but still needs a bit of accrual paperwork.

  • Wilson is 86-41-1 with a 100+ rating
  • He is 9-6 in the playoffs with a 96+ rating and a SB ring.

Hall of Good talk on Wilson is weak in my opinion.

  • Wilson has 9 playoff games with a 100+ rating out of 15 games.
    • Rodgers has 8 in 17
    • Peyton Manning had 6 in 27 games.
    • Brady has 16 in 41 games
    • Rivers has 4 in 11

Wilson skates in even if he has 6 additional mediocre years to get to seasons played and raw stats that the voting buffoons crave.

There are only 3 players in NFL history to qualify with a TD to INT ratio better than 3 to 1.

  • Rodgers
  • Wilson
  • Brady

* Mahomes will soon be 4 and Jackson could get there if he continues like 2019

Wilson is also a 3993 yard, 19 TD, 5.5 per carry runner so far.

I’m definitely not saying Wilson is only Hall of Good. I’m like you, where I think he’s on Hall of Fame pace but just needs a little more accrual work.

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On 8/18/2020 at 7:29 AM, ET80 said:

I'm more shocked on the inclusion of Wilson in this discussion.

Late response. I just saw this.

I'm not including Rivers and Ryan in this discussion without including Wilson because all 3 of them have been consistently top 4-6 ranked QB's for the majority of their careers.  

The only difference between Ryan, Rivers, and Wilson at this point is a 4 year difference in longevity and Wilson is seemingly getting better every year while playing with scraps IMO.

 

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First off, I hate Russell Wilson.  

Second off, he is going to have to fall completely off the map, and like abuse animals not to make the HoF.

He is a 6 time Pro-Bowler.  Super Bowl Champ.  He is currently tied with Jay Cutler for #32 in TD passes thrown, and if he has another 30 TD season this year, he is going to be top 20.  He is currently 51st in passing yards, and will probably break the top 50 on his first completion of the season, even a 2000 yard season gets him to 44th.  He is also one of three players to have a better than 3.0 TD:INT ratio (based on 1500 attempts).  And there is no reason to think that at 31 he will not continue to play well enough for a few seasons to pad some of those numbers.

Russell is going to be in.

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I think Rivers is a lock for the HOF.  #6 in total passing yards and TD's.  How do you not put him into the HOF?

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On 9/5/2020 at 7:41 PM, Bucketheadsdad said:

I think Rivers is a lock for the HOF.  #6 in total passing yards and TD's.  How do you not put him into the HOF?

His regular season stats are like empty soda calories.

Compare him to his peers and he’s in that 7-9 range.

He”s a clear 3rd in is draft class based on the other guys 4 rings.

How many QBs get in?

 

I think yet another year of stat accumulation will help his case but a couple playoff wins will help more.

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1 hour ago, SkippyX said:

His regular season stats are like empty soda calories.

Compare him to his peers and he’s in that 7-9 range.

He”s a clear 3rd in is draft class based on the other guys 4 rings.

How many QBs get in?

 

I think yet another year of stat accumulation will help his case but a couple playoff wins will help more.

Every HOF is filled with fantastic players that never won a championship.  I get the empty calorie analogy, but if we're going to rely simply on championships won, maybe we should have a separate HOF for Super Bowl/World Series/Stanley Cup/NBA Championship winners.  https://bleacherreport.com/articles/797735-the-top-52-hall-of-fame-players-to-never-win-a-super-bowl   https://fikklefame.com/twelve-hall-of-fame-hitters-who-never-played-in-the-world-series/  

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HOVG:

Cam, Ryan, Rivers

HM: Stafford, Smith, Cousins

Ryan, Cam, and Rivers all have gotten close to gaining a ring and have played in multiple CCG's. 

Stafford gets an honorable mention based on his stat production, Smith based on his shortened body of work once SF got their act together since I think that's the biggest barrier between him and HOVG status, Cousins based on his play so far and where he's at as a QB. 

The next crop is too young to adequately judge yet. 

 

As far as Wilson v. Warner, I'm taking Warner  for now and giving Wilson time to finish out. Warner was spectacular in his run in St. Louis until injuries bit him. Arizona was a dumpster fire when he arrived and after he left. But while he was there, the Cardinals became a legitimate threat. Dude legit had more TDs than incompletions in a playoff game.  

I really wish Warner had long term, consistent body of work. I think he would've been considered far better than he currently is. Had Warner come into the league in, say, 2002-2004 and played for the 15 years he was a pro (AFL, NFLE, and NFL), I think he easily outpaces Russell Wilson's current body of work. 

Wilson will definitely be in the HoF and go down as a better QB than Kurt Warner, but Warner will always be the ultimate 'what if' QB because it wasn't like he screwed himself (Ryan Leaf), did something stupid (Michael Vick) or got injured into retirement (Andrew Luck/RG3) and got the 'what if' treatment. Like someone said, nobody else has had his weird career trajectory.

FWIW, I don't think Warner makes the HoF if not for the SB win and multiple appearances. Ironically, I find his career similar to my other 'what if' QB, Alex Smith- didn't have a shot at NFL success early on, proved himself totally capable, helped reinvigorate multiple franchises, highly regarded despite superstar overall stats. 

Edited by ronjon1990
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On 8/17/2020 at 7:44 PM, Warhorse said:

Cam a better QB than Stafford? Seriously?

Cam’s highs are much higher. Cam’s had monster years where he was a stud and nobody wanted to play him. He’s not going to have the flashiest passing stats but he’s going to murder in QB rushed. 2013, and 2015 were light years ahead of anything Stafford did.

Stafford to me is diet Phillip Rivers 

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On 8/26/2020 at 4:32 AM, thebestever6 said:

Nothing will ever surpass Kurt Warner's peaks in those two or three deep playoff runs he also played great in those playoffs. He kinda Is a hall of fame rich Nick Foles. But Warner had a lot of Valleys .  

Wilson never had those so yes I believe he has surpassed him.

Warner has MVP’s, Wilson doesn’t. When Warner was winning and making SB’s, he was the focal point of the Greatest Show on Turf and then a killer Cardinals offense. When Wilson went to SB’s he took a backseat to the LOB and his entire team took a step back when his defense left and he was the main guy. 
 

Warner accomplished more, his highs were higher, and when his team was doing the most he was winning MVP’s so he got the lion share of the credit 

Warner has two seasons he can without a shadow of doubt say he was QB on the planet. He also has a SB MVP on top of his ring. 
 

Warner was much better positioned. Also he has the better narrative 

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On 9/5/2020 at 8:41 PM, Bucketheadsdad said:

I think Rivers is a lock for the HOF.  #6 in total passing yards and TD's.  How do you not put him into the HOF?

Easily. Passing stats are inflated as hell. 
 

There’s one thing every QB in the HOF has. They have AT LEAST one of these items 

1. A Super Bowl 

2. An MVP

3. An All Pro 

Rivers has none. 
 

He also played in an era with 

Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brews, Aaron Rodgers and Eli Manning. Every single one of them is going to take precedence over him to get in the HOF. They aren’t letting 7 guys from the last era get in. Then right after that era you have Russell Wilson who will EASILY take precedence over him and guys like Cam and Ryan who have an MVP, an All Pro and SB appearance. Those guys have cases over Rivers. It’s more of a debate and doubt any of the three get in, but that hurts Rivers that with more accomplishments will be in the debate with him. Ryan particularly has literally the same season to season stats as him and could very easily pass him before he is even eligible plus the MVP.

And let’s be real, if Rivers gets real consideration it’s only a matter of time before people say “hold up, if we are thinking about letting him in, Joe Flacco actually won a SB for his team having one of the best playoffs ever and he has a SB MVP,  that’s worth more than anything Rivers did”. 
 

Rivers is a textbook example of “Hall of Very Good”. Consistently top 10 during his era. Might have broke the top 5 once or twice. Never was in the conversation for best QB in a given year. Never got some major individual award. Wasn’t a consistent playoff fixture. Has more playoff disappointments than deep runs, never made a SB much less won one. Has too many guys in his era clearly ahead of him. Has guys in the next generation clearly ahead of him. Has guys that likely won’t get in with cases against him. 

If he gets in you might as well start talking about guys like Drew Bledsoe who in their era also finished top 10 in stars (only he made a SB and has a 2nd Team All Pro). That’s where the bar is getting lowered. And at that point.... it’s basically “anybody who was a respected franchise QB for a decade gets in”

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Eight pro-bowl selections.  You're wanting to penalize a guy because a team on the other side of the country was dominant?  Took his team to the playoff six times.  We're going to have to agree to disagree.  I'm no Rivers fan, but I think in the next decade, we'll probably see him there.  

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If the Saints don't beat the Colts in the 2009 is Brees on this list?

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1 hour ago, Bucketheadsdad said:

Eight pro-bowl selections.  You're wanting to penalize a guy because a team on the other side of the country was dominant?  Took his team to the playoff six times.  We're going to have to agree to disagree.  I'm no Rivers fan, but I think in the next decade, we'll probably see him there.  

No I penalizing him because he’s not good enough. You are overvaluing an inflated stat and Pro Bowls and ignoring the most important things. 
 

1. Was he ever the best QB in the league? No 

2. Was he ever a first or 2nd Team All Pro (aka one of the top 4)? No 

3. Was he ever an MVP? No

4. Did he consistently lead his team to the playoffs? No... his team made the playoffs less than half his career... 6 of 14 seasons. 

5. Did he consistent make deep playoffs runs? No he made one AFCCG,

He’s not making the Hall. He has less than every other QB that made the HOF. There are QB’s that have All Pros and Made SB’s and finished top 10 in stats that didn’t make it. There’s guys like Cam who have an MVP and a SB appearance that will break own the record for QB rushing that won’t get in. 
 

There’s literally no standard by which he compares well to people already in. It’s almost laughable. 

Edited by lancerman

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35 minutes ago, Fray32 said:

If the Saints don't beat the Colts in the 2009 is Brees on this list?

No way. 
 

Brees has 5 All Pros, 2 OPOY’s, is the all time leader in yards and TD’s, he has most of the 5000 yard seasons by himself and led the league in yards 7 times, led the league in TD’s 4 times, has the NFL record for single season completion percentage and completions overall. Led his team to 3 conference championship games and was consistently competitive. Dragged all time historically bad defenses to 7-9 record out of sheer force of will. He’s consistently been regarded as one of the 4 greatest QB’s of his era. 
 

 

Edited by lancerman
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