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Hunter2_1

Which of these should have won Superbowl MVP

should have won  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. MVP

    • Reggie White or Brett Favre over Desmond Howard (XXXI)
      8
    • Dwight Smith over Dexter Jackson (XXXVII)
      4
    • Timmy Smith over Doug Williams (XXII)
      2
    • Damien Williams or Chris Jones over Patrick Mahomes (LIV)
      11
    • Kam Chancellor over Malcolm Smith (XLVIII)
      8
    • Jamal Lewis over Ray Lewis (XXXV)
      5
    • Ty Law over Tom Brady (XXXVI)
      11
    • James White over Tom Brady (LI)
      9
    • Dominic Rhodes over Peyton Manning (XLI)
      11
    • Terrell Davis over John Elway (XXXIII)
      13
    • Rodney Harrison over Deion Branch (XXXIX)
      4
    • Thurman Thomas over Ottis Anderson...despite losing (XXV)
      4


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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, LuckIsGOAT said:

Mahomes over Williams is maybe the biggest robbery ever of any award in NFL history

No dude lol. There are worse "robberies" every season for just the Pro Bowl alone. 

Edited by TecmoSuperJoe
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On 8/21/2020 at 5:41 PM, Nightime said:

Williams never carried the offense. When KC trailed 20-10, Williams had only accumulated  60 rush yards and 23 receiving yards, and zero touchdowns. That’s not a carry. His last “game sealing” touchdown wasn’t actually game sealing, as it gave the ball back to SF. Had Williams fell to the ground after he got a first down, he’d finish with barely 100 total yards and 1 touchdown in a 24-20 win (yes the Chiefs would’ve kneeled and ran out the clock). That’s not an MVP

Before the final kneel downs, Mahomes had 330 total yards, 3 touchdowns and 2 turnovers. And the second biggest comeback in Superbowl history vs. the #1 pass defense in the NFL. No Mahomes, no Super Bowl for KC. 

I’m not even going to mention the other 2 playoff games where Mahomes was our leading rusher. Damien Williams only had a good SB performance because he got to face the below average 49er run defense who were geared to stop Mahomes. They were more than happy to give up a few yards to Williams as long as they could contain Mahomes 

I agree with you. However, when I done a bit of reading for this thread I came across the below. What do you think?

 

"But the player who scored those final two Kansas City touchdowns — running back Damien Williams — had a much stronger case.

To put it simply, Mahomes was pretty bad through the first 3½ quarters with two interceptions over a span of eight passes, one of them a laughably awful pass that went straight to 49ers linebacker Fred Warner.

“I hit him right between the 5 and the 4 [on his jersey],” Mahomes joked afterward.

The MVP finished with a 78.1 passer rating, his second-lowest mark of the season and the third-lowest of his career. It was also the third-lowest passer rating ever recorded by a Super Bowl-winning quarterback (minimum 25 pass attempts), ahead of only the Patriots’ Tom Brady last year (71.4) and the Cowboys’ Troy Aikman in 1994 (77.2). Mahomes hadn’t thrown more than one interception in a game since Nov. 19, 2018, against the Rams.

Williams, meanwhile, scored those two crucial touchdowns and finished with 133 total yards (104 rushing and 29 receiving). He averaged 6.1 yards per carry against a 49ers defense that allowed opponents to rush for only 4.5 yards per carry in the regular season and then held the Vikings and Packers to 2.1 and 3.9 yards per carry, respectively, in the playoffs. More than half of those yards per carry (3.5) in the Super Bowl were after contact, per the game charters at Pro Football Focus.

According to data from TruMedia, Williams had the highest expected points added total of the game. His performance added nine points more than expected after you consider the down, distance and field position of each of his opportunities. The entirety of those expected points added were the result of two fourth-quarter plays: his five-yard catch for a touchdown that withstood review (plus-3.4 EPA) and his 38-yard touchdown run with 1:20 left to play (plus-6.2 EPA). Wide receiver Sammy Watkins produce the second-most EPA in Super Bowl LIV followed by Mahomes (plus-5.8) and Kelce (plus-5.2)."

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1 hour ago, Hunter2_1 said:

I agree with you. However, when I done a bit of reading for this thread I came across the below. What do you think?

 

"But the player who scored those final two Kansas City touchdowns — running back Damien Williams — had a much stronger case.

To put it simply, Mahomes was pretty bad through the first 3½ quarters with two interceptions over a span of eight passes, one of them a laughably awful pass that went straight to 49ers linebacker Fred Warner.

“I hit him right between the 5 and the 4 [on his jersey],” Mahomes joked afterward.

The MVP finished with a 78.1 passer rating, his second-lowest mark of the season and the third-lowest of his career. It was also the third-lowest passer rating ever recorded by a Super Bowl-winning quarterback (minimum 25 pass attempts), ahead of only the Patriots’ Tom Brady last year (71.4) and the Cowboys’ Troy Aikman in 1994 (77.2). Mahomes hadn’t thrown more than one interception in a game since Nov. 19, 2018, against the Rams.

Williams, meanwhile, scored those two crucial touchdowns and finished with 133 total yards (104 rushing and 29 receiving). He averaged 6.1 yards per carry against a 49ers defense that allowed opponents to rush for only 4.5 yards per carry in the regular season and then held the Vikings and Packers to 2.1 and 3.9 yards per carry, respectively, in the playoffs. More than half of those yards per carry (3.5) in the Super Bowl were after contact, per the game charters at Pro Football Focus.

According to data from TruMedia, Williams had the highest expected points added total of the game. His performance added nine points more than expected after you consider the down, distance and field position of each of his opportunities. The entirety of those expected points added were the result of two fourth-quarter plays: his five-yard catch for a touchdown that withstood review (plus-3.4 EPA) and his 38-yard touchdown run with 1:20 left to play (plus-6.2 EPA). Wide receiver Sammy Watkins produce the second-most EPA in Super Bowl LIV followed by Mahomes (plus-5.8) and Kelce (plus-5.2)."

The Chiefs scored three 4th quarter touchdowns. The most crucial were the first two, because they give KC the lead, and both were Mahomes touchdown passes. Mahomes accounted for all the yards on both scoring drives, while Williams accounted for just 6 of those yards.
 

The final touchdown simply was not needed to win, and if Damien Williams had kneeled after picking up the first down, the Chiefs walk away with a 24-20 win, and Williams barely finishes with 100 total yards

Williams had a nice game, but his MVP case is weaker than Mahomes 

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1 hour ago, Nightime said:

The Chiefs scored three 4th quarter touchdowns. The most crucial were the first two, because they give KC the lead, and both were Mahomes touchdown passes. Mahomes accounted for all the yards on both scoring drives, while Williams accounted for just 6 of those yards.
 

The final touchdown simply was not needed to win, and if Damien Williams had kneeled after picking up the first down, the Chiefs walk away with a 24-20 win, and Williams barely finishes with 100 total yards

Williams had a nice game, but his MVP case is weaker than Mahomes 

Yep. I personally wouldn’t have minded too much if Williams won, but his MVP case relies heavily on that last TD. To me that TD was a luxury, but not a necessity. I’d actually be curious what the statistical probability of the Chiefs winning in the following scenarios was:

Up 24-20 with the ball at the SF 25 and the Niners down to 1 timeout with less than a 1:20 to go (scenario if Williams kneels after picking up 13 yards for a 1st)

Up 31-20 and the Chiefs are about to kick off to the Niners who have two timeouts with less than 1:20 (actual scenario)

Also, one of the reasons I like QBR as a supplemental stat to passer rating and ANY/A is because it factors in QB rushing contributions. Mahomes had a 1 yard TD run in that game that doesn’t show up in passer rating or ANY/A. His QBR in that game was a solid 61.6. Just for reference, that was just a little bit better than Wentz’s QBR (60.8) on the season. Mahomes didn’t have a great game, but he had a good game. He wasn’t a bad pick for MVP.

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Quick, name the MVP of Super Bowl XXXVII. Can't do it? No surprise. Especially when the answer did all his damage on two plays in the first half and neither got him into the end zone.

Tampa Bay Safety Dexter Jackson picked off Oakland QB Rich Gannon twice to set the tone and the Bucs routed the Raiders, 48-21.

Bucs' DE Simeon Rice had three sacks, WR Keenan McCardell caught two touchdown passes and RB Michael Pittman rushed for 124 yards on 29 carries.

All great performances but a defensive player should have been named MVP and that was Safety Dwight Smith who picked off two Gannon passes in the second half and returned them for 44 and 50 yard touchdowns, respectively.

Thus he became the only player in Super Bowl history to return two interceptions for scores. Definitely MVP material.

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On 8/21/2020 at 8:18 AM, LuckIsGOAT said:

Mahomes over Williams is maybe the biggest robbery ever of any award in NFL history

Box score scouting.

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On 8/22/2020 at 3:13 PM, Hunter2_1 said:

I agree with you. However, when I done a bit of reading for this thread I came across the below. What do you think?

 

"But the player who scored those final two Kansas City touchdowns — running back Damien Williams — had a much stronger case.

To put it simply, Mahomes was pretty bad through the first 3½ quarters with two interceptions over a span of eight passes, one of them a laughably awful pass that went straight to 49ers linebacker Fred Warner.

“I hit him right between the 5 and the 4 [on his jersey],” Mahomes joked afterward.

The MVP finished with a 78.1 passer rating, his second-lowest mark of the season and the third-lowest of his career. It was also the third-lowest passer rating ever recorded by a Super Bowl-winning quarterback (minimum 25 pass attempts), ahead of only the Patriots’ Tom Brady last year (71.4) and the Cowboys’ Troy Aikman in 1994 (77.2). Mahomes hadn’t thrown more than one interception in a game since Nov. 19, 2018, against the Rams.

Williams, meanwhile, scored those two crucial touchdowns and finished with 133 total yards (104 rushing and 29 receiving). He averaged 6.1 yards per carry against a 49ers defense that allowed opponents to rush for only 4.5 yards per carry in the regular season and then held the Vikings and Packers to 2.1 and 3.9 yards per carry, respectively, in the playoffs. More than half of those yards per carry (3.5) in the Super Bowl were after contact, per the game charters at Pro Football Focus.

According to data from TruMedia, Williams had the highest expected points added total of the game. His performance added nine points more than expected after you consider the down, distance and field position of each of his opportunities. The entirety of those expected points added were the result of two fourth-quarter plays: his five-yard catch for a touchdown that withstood review (plus-3.4 EPA) and his 38-yard touchdown run with 1:20 left to play (plus-6.2 EPA). Wide receiver Sammy Watkins produce the second-most EPA in Super Bowl LIV followed by Mahomes (plus-5.8) and Kelce (plus-5.2)."

The bold represents exactly the problem. So much of the argument for Williams, is handled on statistics driven by a late game touchdown that didn't matter. 2/3 of his EPA was that play. 1/3 of his YPA came from that play. Over 1/3 of his rushing yards, 1/4 of his total yards, and 1/2 of his TDs came on that play. If that had been a game turning play, all of that is fine. But the fact that it came after the game was sealed, tarnishes all of the statistical arguments for how great his game was and how it warranted MVP. If that much of his statistical impact was unnecessary to us actually winning the game, how much value did he actually contribute compared to the apparent value of his statistical production?

If he takes a knee after a 7 yard gain, we win the game 24-20, and he ends up with 73 rushing yards, 29 receiving yards, for 102 total, 1 TD, a YPA of 4.3, and an EPA lower than 3 other offensive players, at least. With that statline, NO ONE would be arguing he should be SBMVP.

Such a big chunk of those stats offered no actual value to the team. They did not increase our odds of winning. That's the problem with so many of those stats. A bad angle by Jimmie Ward when a play no longer mattered is basically the reason this argument exists.

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17 hours ago, ET80 said:

Box score scouting.

LMAO yeah I have thousands of post on a football forum but I didn't watch the Superbowl.

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2 hours ago, LuckIsGOAT said:

LMAO yeah I have thousands of post on a football forum but I didn't watch the Superbowl.

That's my thought if you think Mahomes winning SB MVP over Damian Williams is - and I quote - the "biggest robbery ever". 

Here's somebody who is basing it from watching the game:

13 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

The bold represents exactly the problem. So much of the argument for Williams, is handled on statistics driven by a late game touchdown that didn't matter. 2/3 of his EPA was that play. 1/3 of his YPA came from that play. Over 1/3 of his rushing yards, 1/4 of his total yards, and 1/2 of his TDs came on that play. If that had been a game turning play, all of that is fine. But the fact that it came after the game was sealed, tarnishes all of the statistical arguments for how great his game was and how it warranted MVP. If that much of his statistical impact was unnecessary to us actually winning the game, how much value did he actually contribute compared to the apparent value of his statistical production?

If he takes a knee after a 7 yard gain, we win the game 24-20, and he ends up with 73 rushing yards, 29 receiving yards, for 102 total, 1 TD, a YPA of 4.3, and an EPA lower than 3 other offensive players, at least. With that statline, NO ONE would be arguing he should be SBMVP.

Such a big chunk of those stats offered no actual value to the team. They did not increase our odds of winning. That's the problem with so many of those stats. A bad angle by Jimmie Ward when a play no longer mattered is basically the reason this argument exists.

Mahomes made plays to put the Chiefs back in the game, Williams scored his points after KC had the lead. 

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No votes for Timmehhh, but here's BR's justification on why THEY say he should have won it;

 

Quarterbacks are usually the center of attention in the NFL, and in Super Bowl XXII, Doug Williams was certainly the player the media focused on before the game. That was understandable considering he was the first African-American quarterback to start in the Super Bowl.

Williams didn't disappoint. He had a great game, throwing for 340 yards (then a Super Bowl record) and four touchdowns. The Washington Redskins overcame an early 10-0 deficit and crushed John Elway and the Denver Broncos 42-10.

But another player was breaking Super Bowl records and certainly deserved consideration for the MVP award: Washington running back Timmy Smith.

Smith was a little-known backup who started Super Bowl XXII due to injury. He ended up rushing for 204 yards and two touchdowns. One of his scores was a 58-yard dash, and he averaged 9.3 yards each time he carried the ball.

Smith was an unknown before the Super Bowl and returned to obscurity after it. He had problems with illegal drugs and quickly found himself out of Washington and out of the NFL and later served time in prison.

He may have only been dominant for one game, but Smith's performance in Super Bowl XXII should have earned him serious consideration for MVP.

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First of all, great threat, second, how can you have one answer with so many great choices.

- Dwight Smith got shafted

- Reggie White literally took the game over and kept points off of the board

- Terrell Davis literally carried the Broncos 

- Timmy Smith had the game of his life but got overlooked because of Doug Williams being the first Black QB winning the Super Bowl....

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4 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

No votes for Timmehhh, but here's BR's justification on why THEY say he should have won it;

 

Quarterbacks are usually the center of attention in the NFL, and in Super Bowl XXII, Doug Williams was certainly the player the media focused on before the game. That was understandable considering he was the first African-American quarterback to start in the Super Bowl.

Williams didn't disappoint. He had a great game, throwing for 340 yards (then a Super Bowl record) and four touchdowns. The Washington Redskins overcame an early 10-0 deficit and crushed John Elway and the Denver Broncos 42-10.

But another player was breaking Super Bowl records and certainly deserved consideration for the MVP award: Washington running back Timmy Smith.

Smith was a little-known backup who started Super Bowl XXII due to injury. He ended up rushing for 204 yards and two touchdowns. One of his scores was a 58-yard dash, and he averaged 9.3 yards each time he carried the ball.

Smith was an unknown before the Super Bowl and returned to obscurity after it. He had problems with illegal drugs and quickly found himself out of Washington and out of the NFL and later served time in prison.

He may have only been dominant for one game, but Smith's performance in Super Bowl XXII should have earned him serious consideration for MVP.

I think Williams got it because he had 4 touchdowns in the crucial second quarter, while Smith only had 1. 
 

It’s hard to deny him the MVP when he accounts for 340 yards and 4 touchdowns, especially when seeing how badly he outperformed then NFL MVP, Elway. Williams deep passes sparked Washington early in a way Smith’s runs didn’t.

 

I bet that’s why he won the award

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7 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Reggie White literally took the game over and kept points off of the board

This was a big one - White started to obliterate that Patriots OL, they had no answer for him in the 4th, when he should have been exhausted. 

Really, anyone on Green Bay outside of Desmond Howard could have got it... How Favre didn't get it is beyond me.

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I don’t see how Tom Brady in XXXVI isn’t the worst of the SB MVPs on this list. Him winning the MVP was a case of people voting for the moment instead of the actual deserving player.

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