Week 1: Chicago at Detroit

[Karnage84]

10 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

Ownership is ultimately responsible for putting the right people in place. They haven't found the right people in almost 60 years and have been the one constant throughout the Lions ineptitude.

The Lions were actually pretty successful in the 50's right before the Fords bought the team.

The league pointed them in the Quinn/Patricia direction with the advisory council. That is only the last few years but it is at least our recent history. Non-football people are placing their trust in football people to bring in the staff at the GM and HC levels. 

Without looking at things in hindsight, Vrabel had his own question marks based on his resume. Patricia had fewer of those. Both were coming from the New England tree. Vrabel has overcome those question marks and done the job in Tennessee that we have wanted/hoped would be the case for Patricia here in Detroit. 

[Karnage84]

7 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

If IIRC, both interim coaches coaches at least a handful of games. That change in coaching affects teams. 

It's less of a factor in the long term, IMO. Each of those guys have had a new HC take over the following year and bring in their own philosophies, players, etc. 

[Louis Friend]

1 minute ago, Karnage84 said:

It's less of a factor in the long term, IMO. Each of those guys have had a new HC take over the following year and bring in their own philosophies, players, etc. 

But what the next coaches did had no bearing on them taking over when they did, or how they fared. It was still change. The fact that new HC were brought in so quickly after them, adds to my point. Constant turn over. No stability. 

[Karnage84]

9 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

But what the next coaches did had no bearing on them taking over when they did, or how they fared. It was still change. The fact that new HC were brought in so quickly after them, adds to my point. Constant turn over. No stability. 

There's only going to be so many Freddie Kitchens' and that didn't work out all too well. It seems that when a HC fails that they typically will clean house as opposed to tweaking who is at the head of things and moving in that same direction. It is a very rare case, even when there is success, for the interim guy to get a true chance at keeping the job. 

[Nnivolcm]

22 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

The league pointed them in the Quinn/Patricia direction with the advisory council. That is only the last few years but it is at least our recent history. Non-football people are placing their trust in football people to bring in the staff at the GM and HC levels. 

Without looking at things in hindsight, Vrabel had his own question marks based on his resume. Patricia had fewer of those. Both were coming from the New England tree. Vrabel has overcome those question marks and done the job in Tennessee that we have wanted/hoped would be the case for Patricia here in Detroit. 

The NFL pointed them towards MP? I hadn't heard that before, do you have a source. I know everyone assumed BQ would hire MP or McDaniels because of BQ's NE connection.

I know BQ was recommended by an advisor hired by them, but so were several others. It's up to ownership to make the right call, and it looks like, once again they missed.

One of the most recent things ownership has done which has soured me greatly was publicly putting BQ and MP on the hot seat. Either fire them or publicly support them. Choosing the middle ground sets them up for failure and delays the next regime from getting a start. 

[Karnage84]

16 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

The NFL pointed them towards MP? I hadn't heard that before, do you have a source. I know everyone assumed BQ would hire MP or McDaniels because of BQ's NE connection.

I know BQ was recommended by an advisor hired by them, but so were several others. It's up to ownership to make the right call, and it looks like, once again they missed.

One of the most recent things ownership has done which has soured me greatly was publicly putting BQ and MP on the hot seat. Either fire them or publicly support them. Choosing the middle ground sets them up for failure and delays the next regime from getting a start. 

The NFL pointed them towards Bob Quinn. Bob Quinn hired Patricia. Quinn appeared to be the top candidate at the time. 

Quinn and Patricia are in the position that they are in because of a lack of on field success. They have been given the opportunity to fulfill their plan, which does take 2-3 years to rebuild a roster that fit the mold of what the HC and GM want to do with the roster. There have been a few bright spots over the last couple years with many more low spots. There is no reason that they should not have been given this off-season to round things out and see if they can make everything click for future success. They have a solid veteran QB in Stafford who is under contract. A new regime is going to take another 2-3 years to rebuild and it would make a lot more sense to have a new QB at the helm. There is no harm in giving it a little extra time and seeing if you can make it work with what you already have here while adding in a few new pieces. 

If they publicly supported them then many of the fans would take the approach that they don't want to win. If they fired them it would be "oh here we go again, another rebuild". I don't think the ownership could have done anything more than putting them on the heat seat and telling the public that all of us, including ownership, expect better results on the field and there are consequences if expectations are not met. 

My impression is that you will not be satisfied until a) Quinn and Patricia are fired and b) they bring in your chosen candidate at GM/HC. Even if Quinn and Patricia start to put something together that there will be constant skepticism and they'd probably have to win a playoff game before there would be any acknowledgement that the team is headed in the right direction. 

[Nnivolcm]

A consultant, hired by the Lions, recommended BQ and others. The Lions interviewed and chose BQ. IMO they chose wrong.

BQ justified firing Caldwell because the roster was better than 9-7 at the time of the firing. He mentioned immediate success was expected not only by him buy by ownership. IMO there was plenty of reason "they should not have been given this off-season to round things out and see if they can make everything click for future success." IMO we know what we have with the team MP and BQ built, and it's embarrassing.

Are you really saying YOU think the Fords did the right thing by publicly putting MP/BQ on the hot seat?

I won't be satisfied until the Lions are a contender. In the short term I'd settle for them not being a laughing stock. If MP/BQ turn them into a contender I'd happily eat crow. I just don't see it being a realistic possibility based on the laughing stock they've built.

[Karnage84]

6 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

A consultant, hired by the Lions, recommended BQ and others. The Lions interviewed and chose BQ. IMO they chose wrong.

BQ justified firing Caldwell because the roster was better than 9-7 at the time of the firing. He mentioned immediate success was expected not only by him buy by ownership. IMO there was plenty of reason "they should not have been given this off-season to round things out and see if they can make everything click for future success." IMO we know what we have with the team MP and BQ built, and it's embarrassing.

Are you really saying YOU think the Fords did the right thing by publicly putting MP/BQ on the hot seat?

I won't be satisfied until the Lions are a contender. In the short term I'd settle for them not being a laughing stock. If MP/BQ turn them into a contender I'd happily eat crow. I just don't see it being a realistic possibility based on the laughing stock they've built.

Lions interim general manager Sheldon White > Executive Director of Player Personnel and Recruiting for Michigan State University’s football program

Seattle’s Trent Kirchner > Seattle Seahawks Co-director of player personnel

New York Giants’ Kevin Abrams >  Vice president of football operations and Assistant General Manager of the New York Giants

New England's Bob Quinn > GM of the Lions

If those were the candidates available to be interviewed at the time, it appears that they still made the best choice for who they had to pick from. 

Hot Seat: 100% Yes. This is off-season #3 with MP and BQ. They either need to start moving in the right direction or it is time to move on. They needed to win games this year before that statement was made and they still need to win games now after the fact. It doesn't really change a whole lot other than tell the fanbase that losing with MP/BQ is not something that will be tolerated for the foreseeable future. If we have a repeat of Years 1 and 2 with a brutal defense and we're finishing 3-13 or 6-10, then I'll be on the "Fire Patricia/Quinn" bus right with you. If they go 0-4 before the bye, I'll be campaigning for a change and for the team to start the process of a regime change. 1-2 years is not enough of a sample size IMO. This is year 3 and we have to be moving in the right direction otherwise it is time to move on. If Sheila starts talking about the challenges of COVID, shortened off-season and all of that nonsense to support keeping Patricia and Quinn then I'll be right with you on these Valenti-esque rants. 

[Nnivolcm]

1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

Lions interim general manager Sheldon White > Executive Director of Player Personnel and Recruiting for Michigan State University’s football program

Seattle’s Trent Kirchner > Seattle Seahawks Co-director of player personnel

New York Giants’ Kevin Abrams >  Vice president of football operations and Assistant General Manager of the New York Giants

New England's Bob Quinn > GM of the Lions

If those were the candidates available to be interviewed at the time, it appears that they still made the best choice for who they had to pick from. 

Hot Seat: 100% Yes. This is off-season #3 with MP and BQ. They either need to start moving in the right direction or it is time to move on. They needed to win games this year before that statement was made and they still need to win games now after the fact. It doesn't really change a whole lot other than tell the fanbase that losing with MP/BQ is not something that will be tolerated for the foreseeable future. If we have a repeat of Years 1 and 2 with a brutal defense and we're finishing 3-13 or 6-10, then I'll be on the "Fire Patricia/Quinn" bus right with you. If they go 0-4 before the bye, I'll be campaigning for a change and for the team to start the process of a regime change. 1-2 years is not enough of a sample size IMO. This is year 3 and we have to be moving in the right direction otherwise it is time to move on. If Sheila starts talking about the challenges of COVID, shortened off-season and all of that nonsense to support keeping Patricia and Quinn then I'll be right with you on these Valenti-esque rants. 

What are you talking about with it appears they made the best choice? Their choice has turned the Lions into a laughing stock with his poor decisions and leadership. 

You "100%" agree with publicly putting BQ and MP on the hot seat for 2020? That was the dumbest move I could imagine ownership making in that position. I can't believe you agree with it. 

I'm not from the Detroit area so I'm not familiar with Valenti, but is it fair to assume you calling my arguments "valenti-esque rants" is a thinly veiled insult? 

[Karnage84]

2 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

1. What are you talking about with it appears they made the best choice? Their choice has turned the Lions into a laughing stock with his poor decisions and leadership. 

2. You "100%" agree with publicly putting BQ and MP on the hot seat for 2020? That was the dumbest move I could imagine ownership making in that position. I can't believe you agree with it. 

3. I'm not from the Detroit area so I'm not familiar with Valenti, but is it fair to assume you calling my arguments "valenti-esque rants" is a thinly veiled insult? 

1. Who would you have picked out of those other candidates? 

2. We'll agree to disagree

3. Valenti tends to take more of a negative approach. I am also not from the Detroit area but listen to a lot of Detroit based media for different perspectives on the Lions. It is a personal observation.

 

[diehardlionfan]

On 9/17/2020 at 4:08 PM, Karnage84 said:

Since @diehardlionfan so eloquently explained that culture doesn't matter, what difference would it make if the Fords did sell the team? They aren't on the field coaching and they are giving their football people the authority to make football decisions. Hiring and firing people hasn't been the issue, they have done plenty of that. 

In what way did I suggest culture doesn’t matter? I think I suggested it’s an over used excuse and isn’t required with every coaching change.The reality of culture is if you don’t have coaches and a GM with excellent people skills they won’t be successful. Look at the successful teams and you will find examples of player issues they managed to work out. Not all the time, but frequently. 

You also don’t change culture by coming in as a first time head coach and trying to be dictatorial. In any environment you have personality types that need managing. The talent pool for NFL players is finite. Fielding a squad of, “your guys,” is very limiting. In any career where performance matters and you have high achieving individuals you have to accept feedback and objectively assess that feedback incorporating whenever possible. That’s how you create buy in. The other way you create buy in is by winning football games. Patricia and Quinn obviously haven’t won games and one of the knocks about Patricia was not listening. Reports are he’s improved but it certainly hasn’t translated to the field.

The Lions have suffered from organizational rot for decades. The absence of accountability, in itself, undermines any positive cultural change.

[cp0k2]

8 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

I'm not from the Detroit area so I'm not familiar with Valenti, but is it fair to assume you calling my arguments "valenti-esque rants" is a thinly veiled insult? 

Valenti tells it like he sees it, he doesn't pull any punches. His radio station lost the broadcast rights to Lions football a few years ago because he's critical of the Ford's and their failures. The Lions wanted him fired, 97.1 refused, so the Lions went to another station. 

Here's his response to the Bears game. (97.1's YouTube channel is awful. The guy shown in the video is pseudo co-host Rico Beard during the rant, Mike Valenti does the show from his house since covid).
 

 

[Karnage84]

Just out of curiousity, I went back on some of the threads before/when Patricia was hired. This is not intended to "call anyone out" or anything but just a step back in time. I shared a lot of the same views at the time. I've been a vocal supporter and have many posts supporting that position.

The key point of this post is the same one shared by Supes at the time of his hiring. Patricia and Vrabel were the two coaches most in lockstep with Quinn and his philosophies. McDaniels' also fit the bill but our issues were on the defensive side. Bringing in a defensive minded HC was intended to help shore up one side of the team and let Cooter/Stafford do their thing. Patricia had a lot more experience and was the big name floating around at the time. Vrabel was a very good candidate but did come in with a few more question marks due to his inexperience. Had we hired McDaniels and he just backed out like he did with the Colts it would have been another Lions-esque moment in our franchise's history. I don't know if we would have backed into a Frank Reich hiring like they did in Indy.

Flash forward to 2020 and we can all see clear as day that Vrabel has been the better coach since Year 1. He has taken that Titans team and turned them into a contender while the Lions have struggled. It is unfortunate that none of these posts about Patricia or Vrabel have aged very well (for us).

My point is that the Fords relied on their football people and selected the best GM on paper out of that grouping (Quinn) and he hired the best coach (on paper) at the time. This was the thinking among a good chunk of the fanbase, Lions based media and national media in the early days of 2018. 

In 2020, we had 5 coaching changes (16% of teams); 2019 we had 8 changes (25%); and in 2018 we had 7 coaching changes (22%). Nearly 1/4 of teams are replacing their HC's every year. Sometimes the best candidate on paper just doesn't work out while in other cases a guy really steps up and surprises you (Kingsbury is a great example). 

Quote

 

@Superduperman 

He's not a slam dunk by any stretch. But he was arguably the #1 coaching target this year. If the Lions hadn't gotten him, probably 4 or more other teams would have wanted him.

Every year he was a coordinator, his team made the playoffs and every year except his first, they won at least one playoff game.

We know he will be on the same page as the GM.

This is the best hire, on paper, that the Lions could have made at this time.

I just hope the brother can maintain his health bc he looks like a guy that works 90 hours a week and eats junk every day. Quinn should assign him a nutritionist.

 

I think we've heard enough to know that Patricia deserves credit for all aspects of their defense, including in-game adjustments. After all he writes their defensive game plans so you can hardly adjust what he's responsible for without him being involved.

to change the subject, I saw Vrabel's opening presser with the Titans and boy I'm glad we didn't hire him. He looked and sounded very green. He's going to need some serious veteran help in his coaching staff.

 

Quote

@Sllim Pickens What do people see in Vrabel?  The DC of the worst scoring defense in football, worse than the lions last year in yards per play.  All with arguably more talent than we had.  I get that he is a name but he has proven absolutely nothing at the NFL level as a coach.

Quote

https://sidelionreport.com/2018/01/10/detroit-lions-coach-matt-patricia-mike-vrabel/

But Patricia is the hottest name on the NFL’s coaching carousel right now. Losing him the Giants could be a gut punch to the Detroit Lions’ plans. Although Vrabel might be a solid consolation prize, not landing the Patriots’ current defensive coordinator could be a devastating blow to this franchise. But it’s hard to compete with the Big Apple.

 

[Karnage84]

9 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

In what way did I suggest culture doesn’t matter? I think I suggested it’s an over used excuse and isn’t required with every coaching change.The reality of culture is if you don’t have coaches and a GM with excellent people skills they won’t be successful. Look at the successful teams and you will find examples of player issues they managed to work out. Not all the time, but frequently. 

You also don’t change culture by coming in as a first time head coach and trying to be dictatorial. In any environment you have personality types that need managing. The talent pool for NFL players is finite. Fielding a squad of, “your guys,” is very limiting. In any career where performance matters and you have high achieving individuals you have to accept feedback and objectively assess that feedback incorporating whenever possible. That’s how you create buy in. The other way you create buy in is by winning football games. Patricia and Quinn obviously haven’t won games and one of the knocks about Patricia was not listening. Reports are he’s improved but it certainly hasn’t translated to the field.

The Lions have suffered from organizational rot for decades. The absence of accountability, in itself, undermines any positive cultural change.

Organizations are made up of many people with each person having their own set of priorities and interests. It's important to be able to get everybody on the same page and moving in the same direction. When you're the leader, regardless of what happens, you are going to be held accountable. Patricia and Quinn brought in the New England style of organization - down to practice schedules, meeting schedules, practice philosophies, etc. Caldwell did take a much more relaxed/player friendly approach. He was successful with this method but it seemed that he wasn't going to be able to push the squad over the 9-7 hump. Patricia showed up and tried to impose the things that have worked for years in New England. A lot of guys adapted, some didn't. Some guys fit the schemes that they wanted to run while other guys weren't as good of a fit.

Patricia came in and tried to set the tone by doing his best BB impression and called out one of his best players in Slay. We've all been over this story multiple times. I hold Slay and Patricia accountable for the breakdown in the relationship. Slay should have come to his coach and aired his grievance and Patricia should have had enough of a finger on the pulse of the locker room to know there was an issue. Patricia wins that tiebreaker in a bad way because he is the leader of the team. 

None of this stuff matters if we are winning games. Patricia is not viewed as this goof who doesn't belong as a HC in the league. If we won all of the 11 4th quarter meltdowns, Patricia would be sitting here at 21-12-1 with a .617 record and averaging 10-6/9-7-1 over the last two years. 

[Louis Friend]

Valenti is a jackass. He loves to openly hate on every Detroit team because he thinks it’s trendy and makes him stand out.  Occasionally his rants will have merit but usually he flies off the handle just to make waves. Detroit has the absolute worst sports journalists in the country. I’ve lived in multiple regions now and I’m ashamed of how inept our sports coverage is in Detroit.