Week 1: Chicago at Detroit

[Karnage84]

4 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

I'm not in the locker room, but several people have publicly complained about Patricia starting from the time he got there. I feel as his attitude with the press confirms the stories we hear confirm he's just an arse. He thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and acts like people are beneath him and his results haven't afforded him the slack to get away with that. Slay provided the example, but I think it's foolish to assume that's the only time Patricia acted like an idiot.

What makes you think Slay would have held out into the season? He's been unhappy with his contact before. He skipped off season work, but never held out into the season. Past behavior is a better indicator of future behavior than making stuff up. 

A 3rd next year is more valuable to me than a 3rd last season imo. A 3rd last season has a likely chance of being out of scheme with a new regime taking over after this regime is canned after 2020. If this regime proves me wrong and are still around long enough to make the selection, they'll have earned themselves a cooler seat and the 3rd round pick will fit their philosophy. If, as I suspect, a new regime takes over, they would have had more ammo for a quicker turn around.

Once again, Slay's "locker room issues' was vaguely tweeting about being unhappy about his contract and his best friend and captain being traded away for peanuts, as well as missing some irrelevant time in training camp. If Patricia and his staff can't deal with those "issues" they shouldn't be coaches. 

Just about every reporter that made similar comments about Patricia in that sense said there was a vast improvement in year 2 from year 1. The on field results didn't stack up but there was a lot of positivity around that. Is he not allowed to develop and grow as a professional with more experience? 

Since you have been on the Fire Patricia bandwagon for some time, a 3rd for another regime would be more valuable to you. If I am BQ/MP then a 3rd this year is a much better option than a future comp pick. Why would they build up a war chest for a future regime? If you don't have confidence that you can do the job and be successful you shouldn't be in that job. 

[Nnivolcm]

37 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Just about every reporter that made similar comments about Patricia in that sense said there was a vast improvement in year 2 from year 1. The on field results didn't stack up but there was a lot of positivity around that. Is he not allowed to develop and grow as a professional with more experience? 

Since you have been on the Fire Patricia bandwagon for some time, a 3rd for another regime would be more valuable to you. If I am BQ/MP then a 3rd this year is a much better option than a future comp pick. Why would they build up a war chest for a future regime? If you don't have confidence that you can do the job and be successful you shouldn't be in that job. 

It does sound like Patricia was less of an arse in year two, but the bar was set pretty low there. He still proved to be unable to manage talented players and his ego led to the Lions getting worse, not better. Patricia was the cause of the "issues" between himself and Slay (and several other talented players). As a head coach, when you're team isn't meeting expectations (1st year expectations were playoffs, right BQ?) you don't get to be an arse. It's especially stupid to be an arse to people who are better at their jobs than you are. 

IF I'm BQ/MP and ownership has told the world how hot my seat is for this coming season, I'd take a year of elite CB play over what they got in the trade. The future comp pick is just a bonus if keep their jobs and they decide not to retain Slay. 

I agree with the bolded. Patricia shouldn't have the job he has. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Nnivolcm

[diehardlionfan]

On 9/14/2020 at 3:50 PM, Karnage84 said:

I did not realize you had coached at a Division 1 school like Stanford before. Maybe Daniel Jeremiah should give you a call and get your thoughts on how to run a team. 

People have to buy into the program or they don't. As the leader, you do have to be someone that is worthy of following and the program has to promote success. There have been several guys who have spoken about the extensive culture change in Detroit moving from Caldwell to Patricia/Patriots. It works for some guys and it doesn't for others. 

That’s the kind of elitism that’s held teams back for years. An organization is an organization. It doesn’t matter if it’s sports, casinos, airlines or the civil service, management techniques and theories are universal. One of the BIG issues in the NFL is close minded good old boys network. They continue to elevate football people who don’t have any education in actual management, conflict resolution, workplace harassment, discipline, adult learning theory, The result is a finite knowledge and recycling football people which is stale and almost incestuous. 

So no, I haven’t coached a Division one school but I was involved in a very technical industry and we took 6400 people out of the civil service and created the worlds only private, not for profit, non share capital corporation. It was a huge cultural and organizational change. Far larger, more complex and more diverse than an NFL roster. I managed a staff of over 200 through a reorganization as part of the corporate objectives. I had to max my staffs hours under the CLC ever 56 day period for almost two years. We reassigned specialization, introduced an entirely new system and came out of the process better for it. 

Bottom line if you can’t manage the behaviours of people you won’t be successful in a people oriented business. This concept of each coaching change requiring a culture change is frankly, hogwash. 

Its easy for people to use buzz words like culture change. It’s one of the cool words and statements right now. One only has to look at Caldwells results versus Patricias results to see that perhaps it’s not the old culture at all.

There are basically two kinds of people in life. Those that talk the talk and those that walk the walk and achieve goals and objectives. So far Quinn and Patricia have done nothing but talk. Their accomplishments = Zero. 

[Nnivolcm]

1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

That’s the kind of elitism that’s held teams back for years. An organization is an organization. It doesn’t matter if it’s sports, casinos, airlines or the civil service, management techniques and theories are universal. One of the BIG issues in the NFL is close minded good old boys network. They continue to elevate football people who don’t have any education in actual management, conflict resolution, workplace harassment, discipline, adult learning theory, The result is a finite knowledge and recycling football people which is stale and almost incestuous. 

So no, I haven’t coached a Division one school but I was involved in a very technical industry and we took 6400 people out of the civil service and created the worlds only private, not for profit, non share capital corporation. It was a huge cultural and organizational change. Far larger, more complex and more diverse than an NFL roster. I managed a staff of over 200 through a reorganization as part of the corporate objectives. I had to max my staffs hours under the CLC ever 56 day period for almost two years. We reassigned specialization, introduced an entirely new system and came out of the process better for it. 

Bottom line if you can’t manage the behaviours of people you won’t be successful in a people oriented business. This concept of each coaching change requiring a culture change is frankly, hogwash. 

Its easy for people to use buzz words like culture change. It’s one of the cool words and statements right now. One only has to look at Caldwells results versus Patricias results to see that perhaps it’s not the old culture at all.

There are basically two kinds of people in life. Those that talk the talk and those that walk the walk and achieve goals and objectives. So far Quinn and Patricia have done nothing but talk. Their accomplishments = Zero. 

[Spartacus]

12 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

Its easy for people to use buzz words like culture change. It’s one of the cool words and statements right now. One only has to look at Caldwells results versus Patricias results to see that perhaps it’s not the old culture at all.

Amen to that brother. I'm a project manager for acquisitions at a major company. Changing culture is such an overused trope its disgusting. Its like people think you can put up a couple "Teamwork" posters up, plastering the business motto all over, and using buzz words in meetings actually changes a culture of a complex set of employees with many different opinions, responsibilities, and motivations. 

I can only imagine how much better off the NFL would be if they thought outside the box even a little bit compared to the same old guys recommending there favorite young guy ( In my experience most likely the best brown noser and not the best for the actual job) or even worse the amount of blatant nepotism that goes on in the NFL. 

[Louis Friend]

17 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

That’s the kind of elitism that’s held teams back for years. An organization is an organization. It doesn’t matter if it’s sports, casinos, airlines or the civil service, management techniques and theories are universal. One of the BIG issues in the NFL is close minded good old boys network. They continue to elevate football people who don’t have any education in actual management, conflict resolution, workplace harassment, discipline, adult learning theory, The result is a finite knowledge and recycling football people which is stale and almost incestuous. 

So no, I haven’t coached a Division one school but I was involved in a very technical industry and we took 6400 people out of the civil service and created the worlds only private, not for profit, non share capital corporation. It was a huge cultural and organizational change. Far larger, more complex and more diverse than an NFL roster. I managed a staff of over 200 through a reorganization as part of the corporate objectives. I had to max my staffs hours under the CLC ever 56 day period for almost two years. We reassigned specialization, introduced an entirely new system and came out of the process better for it. 

Bottom line if you can’t manage the behaviours of people you won’t be successful in a people oriented business. This concept of each coaching change requiring a culture change is frankly, hogwash. 

Its easy for people to use buzz words like culture change. It’s one of the cool words and statements right now. One only has to look at Caldwells results versus Patricias results to see that perhaps it’s not the old culture at all.

There are basically two kinds of people in life. Those that talk the talk and those that walk the walk and achieve goals and objectives. So far Quinn and Patricia have done nothing but talk. Their accomplishments = Zero. 

I'm right here as well. 

I've heard alot of excuses for Quinn/Patricia but they just don't stand up.

1. "They need time to get their guys to run their system."- This is their third year together. They have 10 remaining players from Caldwell's 2017 roster. QB Matthew Stafford, WR Kenny Golladay, WR Marvin Jones, OG Joe Dahl, LB Jarrad Davis, LB Jalen Reeves-Maybin, S Miles Killebrew, K Matt Prater, KR/PR- Jamal Agnew and LS Don Mahlbach. Four of them were Quinn draft picks in 2017- Davis, Golladay, Reeves-Maybin, Agnew. This is their roster. 

2. "The team lost Stafford for 8 games to end last season."- Yes, they did. And they went 0-8 without Stafford. That sill leaves Patricia's record WITH Stafford as 9-15-1 (.3675 winning percentage). Jim Caldwell had a 36-28 record in Detroit WITH Stafford (.5625 winning percentage). Even if you want to disregard the 8 games without Stafford under Patricia, which we should not since this is the roster Quinn built, Patricia does not come close to the predecessor that was deemed "inexcusable". I seem to recall us winning games with SHaun Hill at QB after Stafford got hurt under Schwartz. No excuses, "next man up". 

3. "Patricia is a defensive guru. Offensive woes aren't his strong suit."- Does this defense look better to you? Jim Schwartz had a MUCH better defense than anything I've seen from Matty Patty. Rumors are Patty ran the defense and called the plays his first two seasons here. It was ALL on him and it was atrocious to watch. But he wasn't brought in as a DC, he's the head coach. Play calling, time out usage, subbing guys in and out, clock management, it starts at the top with him and we've seen failure at every level. And when questioned about it, he lashes out. That is not strong leadership. That is an entitled brat who has never had to answer for himself before. 

4. "Culture change"- We hear this every coaching change. Under Jim Schwartz, he took over an undisciplined 0-16 team with little regard of rules and used an in your face attitude to build the team up as a first time head coach. He got guys to buy in, and they saw results. 2-14, 6-10, 10-6-playoff, 7-9 saw him get fired. Brought in Caldwell who was a more laid back player coach. But guys bought in and we saw results. 11-5-playoffs, 7-9, 9-7-playoffs, 9-7 saw him fired for not having enough playoff success. Matt Patricia was brought in as a first time head coach, had a "smartest guy in the room" attitude, rubbed players wrong and they are not buying in. We don't see the results, 6-10, 3-12-1, 0-1. Maybe the Lions don't need a "culture change", maybe they need leadership and experience. 

I'm tired of excuses. I'm tired of seeing the same problems game after game, season after season. That falls on coaching. If coaching is failing, that falls on the GM. Anyway you slice it, Quinn/Patricia is responsible. You are as good/bad as your record. 

 

[Karnage84]

3 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

I'm right here as well. 

I've heard alot of excuses for Quinn/Patricia but they just don't stand up.

1. "They need time to get their guys to run their system."- This is their third year together. They have 10 remaining players from Caldwell's 2017 roster. QB Matthew Stafford, WR Kenny Golladay, WR Marvin Jones, OG Joe Dahl, LB Jarrad Davis, LB Jalen Reeves-Maybin, S Miles Killebrew, K Matt Prater, KR/PR- Jamal Agnew and LS Don Mahlbach. Four of them were Quinn draft picks in 2017- Davis, Golladay, Reeves-Maybin, Agnew. This is their roster. 

2. "The team lost Stafford for 8 games to end last season."- Yes, they did. And they went 0-8 without Stafford. That sill leaves Patricia's record WITH Stafford as 9-15-1 (.3675 winning percentage). Jim Caldwell had a 36-28 record in Detroit WITH Stafford (.5625 winning percentage). Even if you want to disregard the 8 games without Stafford under Patricia, which we should not since this is the roster Quinn built, Patricia does not come close to the predecessor that was deemed "inexcusable". I seem to recall us winning games with SHaun Hill at QB after Stafford got hurt under Schwartz. No excuses, "next man up". 

3. "Patricia is a defensive guru. Offensive woes aren't his strong suit."- Does this defense look better to you? Jim Schwartz had a MUCH better defense than anything I've seen from Matty Patty. Rumors are Patty ran the defense and called the plays his first two seasons here. It was ALL on him and it was atrocious to watch. But he wasn't brought in as a DC, he's the head coach. Play calling, time out usage, subbing guys in and out, clock management, it starts at the top with him and we've seen failure at every level. And when questioned about it, he lashes out. That is not strong leadership. That is an entitled brat who has never had to answer for himself before. 

4. "Culture change"- We hear this every coaching change. Under Jim Schwartz, he took over an undisciplined 0-16 team with little regard of rules and used an in your face attitude to build the team up as a first time head coach. He got guys to buy in, and they saw results. 2-14, 6-10, 10-6-playoff, 7-9 saw him get fired. Brought in Caldwell who was a more laid back player coach. But guys bought in and we saw results. 11-5-playoffs, 7-9, 9-7-playoffs, 9-7 saw him fired for not having enough playoff success. Matt Patricia was brought in as a first time head coach, had a "smartest guy in the room" attitude, rubbed players wrong and they are not buying in. We don't see the results, 6-10, 3-12-1, 0-1. Maybe the Lions don't need a "culture change", maybe they need leadership and experience. 

I'm tired of excuses. I'm tired of seeing the same problems game after game, season after season. That falls on coaching. If coaching is failing, that falls on the GM. Anyway you slice it, Quinn/Patricia is responsible. You are as good/bad as your record. 

 

1. You won't find me disagree with you or anyone else on this for this year. They brought in Shelton, Harmon and Collins as "Matt's guys" to fill key spots on his defense. They've had 3 free agent classes and draft classes to rework this roster. I did believe that they needed to be given this off-season to complete the process and eliminate any room for excuses based on personnel. 

2. I have given Patricia and Quinn the benefit of the doubt for transitioning the team to a Patriots style organization. What they do in the future over the next few weeks should determine what their future holds - whether they stay on the team or we are moving towards a new FO. If we had more success in the past then this would be less of an issue. I would give Patricia until the bye and see what happens. He has his guys, a veteran QB with the same OC and generally the same weapons on offense. If he is 0-4 going into the bye, there is nothing that we have seen to demonstrate that things will vastly improve in Week 6 and beyond. 

3. He is the head coach, so everything is up to him. As a defensive minded HC, there is absolutely no reason the defense should be this bad. Again, now he has "his guys" and the defense looked very similar to the one we saw at the end of last year. 

4. If organizational culture isn't important, why have teams like the Steelers, Patriots and Ravens had a longstanding history of success while teams like the Lions and Browns continuously fail? 

I have given Patricia/Quinn a lot of rope/time to execute their plan. For me, now is the time for that plan to either come to fruition and move in the right direction or we cut our losses early and start the process of moving on to a new regime. 

[Louis Friend]

8 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

4. If organizational culture isn't important, why have teams like the Steelers, Patriots and Ravens had a longstanding history of success while teams like the Lions and Browns continuously fail? 

Leadership and experience. Look at the stability of those organizations. Look at the constant changes from teams like the Lions and Browns. Even the guys we brought in, most were first time coaches/GMs. The most experienced guy we brought in, in forever, was Caldwell and he had the highest Lions winning percentage since the 1950s. And we fired him because Bob Quinn wanted his guy. 

[Nnivolcm]

1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

4. If organizational culture isn't important, why have teams like the Steelers, Patriots and Ravens had a longstanding history of success while teams like the Lions and Browns continuously fail? 

I'd like to refer you to my avatar. 

[Karnage84]

1 hour ago, Louis Friend said:

Leadership and experience. Look at the stability of those organizations. Look at the constant changes from teams like the Lions and Browns. Even the guys we brought in, most were first time coaches/GMs. The most experienced guy we brought in, in forever, was Caldwell and he had the highest Lions winning percentage since the 1950s. And we fired him because Bob Quinn wanted his guy. 

RAVENS 1996 - 2020 (3)

1996 - 1998 (3) - Ted Marchibroda - 16 - 31 - 1 (.344) > Year 1 = 4-12

1999 - 2007 (8) - Brian Billick - 80-64 (.556) - Won SB (Playoffs 4/9 years) > Year 1 = 8-8

2008 - 2020 (12) - John Harbaugh - 118-74 (.615) - Won SB (Playoffs 8/12 years) > Year 1 = 11-5

PITTSBURGH 1992 - 2020 (2)

1992 - 2006 (14) - Bill Cowher - 149 - 90 - 1 (.623) - Won SB (Playoffs 10/15 years with 2 SB appearances) > Year 1 = 11-5

2007 - 2020 (13) - Mike Tomlin - 133 - 74 - 1 (.642) - Won SB (Playoffs 8/13 years with 2 SB appearances) > Year 1 = 10-6

DETROIT 1997 - 2020 (7)

1997 - 2000 (3) - Bobby Ross - 27-30 (.474) Playoffs 2/4 years > Year 1 = 9-7

2001 - 2002 (3) - Marty Mornhinweg - 5 -27 (.156); No playoff appearances > Year 1 = 2-14

2003 - 2005 (3) - Steve Mariucci - 15 - 28 (.349); No playoff appearances > Year 1 = 5-11

2006 - 2008 (3) - Rod Marinelli - 10 - 38 (.208); 0-16 Season; No playoff appearances > Year 1 = 3-13

2009 - 2013 (5) - Jim Schwartz - 29-51 (.363); (Playoffs 1/5 years) > Year 1 = 2-14

2014 - 2017 (4) - Jim Caldwell - 36-28 (.563) (Playoffs 2/4 years) > Year 1 = 11-5

2018 - 2020 (3) - Matt Patricia - 9-22 -1 (.297); No playoff appearances > Year 1 = 6-10

 

We have had more coaches since 1992 than the Steelers and Ravens have combined. That kind of constant turnover at the HC and GM position is only going to breed instability. Harbaugh took over a Super Bowl winning team with Ozzie Newsome at the helm. Tomlin took over a Super Bowl winning team from coaching legend Bill Cowher. Both of these guys were given the keys to the Ferrari, didn't crash it and have developed into two of the best coaches in the league for a very long time. The foundation of stability was already in place when each of these guys took over their roles. Their are organizational philosophies and team philosophies that carry over from year to year and coach to coach. The Lions lack a positive identity and they have for a very long time. There isn't that history of success to fall back on. 

[Karnage84]

22 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

I'd like to refer you to my avatar. 

Since @diehardlionfan so eloquently explained that culture doesn't matter, what difference would it make if the Fords did sell the team? They aren't on the field coaching and they are giving their football people the authority to make football decisions. Hiring and firing people hasn't been the issue, they have done plenty of that. 

[Nnivolcm]

34 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Since @diehardlionfan so eloquently explained that culture doesn't matter, what difference would it make if the Fords did sell the team? They aren't on the field coaching and they are giving their football people the authority to make football decisions. Hiring and firing people hasn't been the issue, they have done plenty of that. 

Ownership is ultimately responsible for putting the right people in place. They haven't found the right people in almost 60 years and have been the one constant throughout the Lions ineptitude.

The Lions were actually pretty successful in the 50's right before the Fords bought the team.

[Louis Friend]

49 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

RAVENS 1996 - 2020 (3)

1996 - 1998 (3) - Ted Marchibroda - 16 - 31 - 1 (.344) > Year 1 = 4-12

1999 - 2007 (8) - Brian Billick - 80-64 (.556) - Won SB (Playoffs 4/9 years) > Year 1 = 8-8

2008 - 2020 (12) - John Harbaugh - 118-74 (.615) - Won SB (Playoffs 8/12 years) > Year 1 = 11-5

PITTSBURGH 1992 - 2020 (2)

1992 - 2006 (14) - Bill Cowher - 149 - 90 - 1 (.623) - Won SB (Playoffs 10/15 years with 2 SB appearances) > Year 1 = 11-5

2007 - 2020 (13) - Mike Tomlin - 133 - 74 - 1 (.642) - Won SB (Playoffs 8/13 years with 2 SB appearances) > Year 1 = 10-6

DETROIT 1997 - 2020 (7)

1997 - 2000 (3) - Bobby Ross - 27-30 (.474) Playoffs 2/4 years > Year 1 = 9-7

2001 - 2002 (3) - Marty Mornhinweg - 5 -27 (.156); No playoff appearances > Year 1 = 2-14

2003 - 2005 (3) - Steve Mariucci - 15 - 28 (.349); No playoff appearances > Year 1 = 5-11

2006 - 2008 (3) - Rod Marinelli - 10 - 38 (.208); 0-16 Season; No playoff appearances > Year 1 = 3-13

2009 - 2013 (5) - Jim Schwartz - 29-51 (.363); (Playoffs 1/5 years) > Year 1 = 2-14

2014 - 2017 (4) - Jim Caldwell - 36-28 (.563) (Playoffs 2/4 years) > Year 1 = 11-5

2018 - 2020 (3) - Matt Patricia - 9-22 -1 (.297); No playoff appearances > Year 1 = 6-10

 

We have had more coaches since 1992 than the Steelers and Ravens have combined. That kind of constant turnover at the HC and GM position is only going to breed instability. Harbaugh took over a Super Bowl winning team with Ozzie Newsome at the helm. Tomlin took over a Super Bowl winning team from coaching legend Bill Cowher. Both of these guys were given the keys to the Ferrari, didn't crash it and have developed into two of the best coaches in the league for a very long time. The foundation of stability was already in place when each of these guys took over their roles. Their are organizational philosophies and team philosophies that carry over from year to year and coach to coach. The Lions lack a positive identity and they have for a very long time. There isn't that history of success to fall back on. 

If we are actually going back to 1992- We've had 10 Head coaches. Twice as many than the Steelers and Ravens combined. 

Wayne Fontes 1988–1996 

Bobby Ross 1997–2000 

Gary Moeller 2000 

Marty Mornhinweg 2001–2002 

Steve Mariucci 2003–2005 

Richard Jauron 2005

Rod Marinelli 2006–2008

Jim Schwartz 2009–2013

Jim Caldwell 2014–2017

Matt Patricia 2018–present

 

Edit- Had to change ****'s name to Richard to avoid filter. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Louis Friend

[Karnage84]

2 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

If we are actually going back to 1992- We've had 10 Head coaches. Twice as many than the Steelers and Ravens combined. 

Wayne Fontes 1988–1996 

Bobby Ross 1997–2000 

Gary Moeller 2000 

Marty Mornhinweg 2001–2002 

Steve Mariucci 2003–2005 

Richard Jauron 2005

Rod Marinelli 2006–2008

Jim Schwartz 2009–2013

Jim Caldwell 2014–2017

Matt Patricia 2018–present

 

Edit- Had to change ****'s name to Richard to avoid filter. 

I just didn't want to go back and calculate Fontes' winning percentage and all of that to 1992 to match up with the Cowher time period. I also didn't include interim HC's since they rarely if ever get a chance at actually taking things over. 

[Louis Friend]

2 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

I just didn't want to go back and calculate Fontes' winning percentage and all of that to 1992 to match up with the Cowher time period. I also didn't include interim HC's since they rarely if ever get a chance at actually taking things over. 

If IIRC, both interim coaches coaches at least a handful of games. That change in coaching affects teams.