Dolphins release Josh Rosen

[Matts4313]

12 hours ago, VanS said:

I have seen too many Pro Bowlers and All Pros who were cut by one team only to make it big on another team.

Really? How many is that? Maybe 1 every few years?

Can you name any top 10 picks that got shipped off from 2 teams in 2 years and then became an all pro? Even if you can, its probably not very many. Or perhaps its due to injuries or something.

[VanS]

22 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

All 32 teams are wrong.....gotcha.

Now think about this. Rosen is currently sitting on a practice squad hanging onto hope that he even still has a job next week while they are 32 teams in the NFL with roughly 20-30 professional evaluators each employed with centuries of combined football experience and there is still very little to zero interest in him. 

What you're inadvertently saying at this point is that 1000 professional coaches, with years of experience, are wrong and that your unprofessional opinion succeeds all of them. How do you not see this? 

I feel like this is another case of trying to be different just for the sake of being different. 

 

I would also recommend this for future references. 

PSA: Anytime you or anyone else feel the need to bring up the rarest and most unique anomaly in NFL history (Brady 6th rd)  in order to back up any opinion....that alone should give you pause enough to throw up red flag that maybe you should rethink your stance on the subject. 

You should never have to reach this deep in your cherry-picking pocket. And if you do, then that probably means you are wrong. 

 

Expand on this. Which starters are you talking about? And what part of his particular game that makes you believe this (foot work, throwing motion, reading defenses, etc?)

 

I said this in the Bears forum a while back.  With the Cards...yeah. Klingsbury may have wanted to choose his own guy instead of trying fit a round peg in a square hole like Nagy did with Mitch. So yeah...that may have a bad hand for him. 

However, Miami gave a up a 2nd round pick for him and jettisoned him less than a year later and now he has very little interest from 30 other teams. What does that tell you? 

No team gives up that much draft capital and are willing to spend that much time in development unless they truly believe that he's their guy. 

My outside POV. What I believe happened was that Miami was desperate and saw some positive things on tape that got them excited and the staff felt Gase could fix the negative parts of his game in a similar way that Gase "fixed" Jay Cutler.  

So then they brought him and actually saw him in practice, preps, film room, game days, etc and then admitted to themselves...."we were wrong. He's not it fellas. Let's cut our losses now before we bury ourselves even deeper in the hole and start looking for a better alternative in the draft. Try to trade Rosen and see if we can get any buyers.  If not.....then move on. " 

Again, what does all of that tell you?  

You don't build around a QB who you don't believe in.  You cut your losses and move on. That's why Rosen is in the position that he is now. No GM or coach believes he is a guy worth investing in and building around. 

 

All 32 teams were wrong on Kurt Warner.  They were wrong on James Harrison for a long time.  Johnny Unitas was cut after training camp of his rookie year.  Rod Smith, Wes Welker, Jimmy Smith, and so on.  You can say these are outliers but we have seen players who everyone gave up on come back to have incredible careers.  Not saying Josh Rosen will be a Hall of Famer or even Pro Bowler.  Just giving you these examples as proof that all 32 teams collectively are not infallible.

Another thing to consider is teams treat the QB position differently from other positions.  They will not always try to get the most talented players at that position to be backups because they don't want to create tension with their starter.  Obviously the Eagles are an outlier with how they have brought in competition for Wentz.  But most teams do not always try to sign the most talented QB available to be the backup.

I would personally take Rosen over Gardner Minshew.  But we all know the Jaguars aren't trying to win this year.  I'd also take him over Mitchell Trubisky.  I would rather build around him than Baker Mayfield.  And finally I would take him over Justin Herbert who I have no faith in as the Chargers QB of the future. 

[VanS]

10 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

Really? How many is that? Maybe 1 every few years?

Can you name any top 10 picks that got shipped off from 2 teams in 2 years and then became an all pro? Even if you can, its probably not very many. Or perhaps its due to injuries or something.

Obviously it doesn't happen often but there have been several players who were able to salvage amazing careers after being cut.  https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/nfl-roster-cuts-michael-sam-deadline-notable-players-all-time-best-johnny-unitas-arian-foster-kurt-warner/149z93o1lrj5v1uwxeb0yss5vn

 

Once again.  I'm not saying Josh Rosen is a surefire starting QB.  I simply saying its way too early to write him off.  

[VanS]

23 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

How in any world can you not consider him a bust? 

He's just 23 years old and I have yet to see him play with a decent supporting cast.

I don't just call guys stars or busts simply based on the results.  I look at the circumstances.  For example, I never bought into the Jared Goff hype in 2017 and 2018.  I saw the talent around him and a genius coach hiding his flaws.  Now that league has caught up with McVay and the Rams roster is no longer the best in the league, Jared Goff is no longer looking like an elite QB.  Similarly, I am not ready to bury Josh Rosen as a bust.  With the Cardinals and Dolphins he had awful supporting casts.  Rosen isn't the type of QB that can overcome lack of talent around him.  He needs a good o-line and talented skill position players to succeed. 

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by VanS

[KingOfNewYork]

Rosen drafted by first year head coach who was then canned team had #1 pick drafted dynamic playmaking QB who was a natural fit with new head coach.

Rosen traded to team who began year in tank mode, landed on a team with Fitz, who was in his I'm a good QB phase and then that same team drafted the kid they were tanking for.

Its unfortunate, doesn't make him bad but he also didn't do anything to make two organizations believe he was worth building around.

I think now he's in a good spot. Bucs wont draft a QB to replace Tom for two years, soak up all that knowledge, show your worth and maybe you can take over for him if he retires or leaves the team in two years.

[CP3MVP]

On 9/7/2020 at 1:41 AM, VanS said:

This assumes that folks around the NFL are perfect judges of talent.  

Every NFL Draft says otherwise.

NFL coaches worship first round picks, especially QBs. The fact that he’s on a practice squad 2 years after being drafted you know he sucks 

EJ Manuel lasted longer on a 53 man roster for god sake

Edited September 12, 2020 by CP3MVP

[VanS]

5 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

NFL coaches worship first round picks, especially QBs. The fact that he’s on a practice squad 2 years after being drafted you know he sucks 

EJ Manuel lasted longer on a 53 man roster for god sake

EJ Manuel also lasted longer on a 53 man roster than Kurt Warner until he started bagging groceries and found his way back into the NFL at 27 years old.

[diamondbull424]

On 9/9/2020 at 12:21 AM, VanS said:

I would rather build around him than Baker Mayfield.  And finally I would take him over Justin Herbert who I have no faith in as the Chargers QB of the future. 

I was with you until here. Rosen hasn’t shown anything to suggest he’s better or even on the same level as Baker. I’m not a Browns fan, but Baker went to a squad that was just as bad if not worse than Rosen’s Cardinals. Yet he was an elite season by Saquan Barkley away from winning OROY. Rosen on the other hand had the (IIRC) 22nd worst season for a QB in NFL history. Call him a rookie or whatever, but he was still roughly the 5th worst rookie QB performance of all time.

While he was 21 and Mayfield was 23 and we saw what types of improvement Lamar was able to make year 1 to year 2 in comfortability. Though Lamar was still the best 21 y/o QB we’ve seen according to Sharpe analytics. So at least their was an argument there. Don’t see any argument for Rosen above Baker.

With Herbert, not his biggest fan either. Though I still feel he at least has the superior arm talent and based on collegiate aptitude is the smarter player. Combine that with just how terrible Rosen was as a rookie and I’m not banking on Rosen over him either. Though that’s JMO there.

[Xenos]

43 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

With Herbert, not his biggest fan either. Though I still feel he at least has the superior arm talent and based on collegiate aptitude is the smarter player. Combine that with just how terrible Rosen was as a rookie and I’m not banking on Rosen over him either. Though that’s JMO there.

I’m bias obviously but Herbert also had different OCs in college as well as a real lack of offensive talent outside of Pewell at LT. There’s a reason every other Ducks offensive player were picked in the third day. 

[VanS]

52 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

 I’m not a Browns fan, but Baker went to a squad that was just as bad if not worse than Rosen’s Cardinals.

Gonna disagree with you right there.  Browns may have had a worse record than the Cardinals before the 2018 draft but they were significantly more talented.  Similar to the Bengals this year.  I expect them to have a really good season because they had way more talent than their 2-14 record last year suggested.

We'll see who is better over the course of their careers.  Mayfield definitely has the better start thus far thanks to his 2018 season.  But I'm sticking with my pre-draft evaluation that Josh Rosen will be the better QB over the course of their careers.

[thebestever6]

Rosen when he speaks doesn't sound like a franchise qb he doesn't sound like a competitive sob like Mayfield does so that's where I end those comparisons.

Mayfield is very flawed I think he got too big of a head after that impressive rookie year but I'd take him every day over Rosen.

I also loved how people said Rosen was such a steal for pick 62 when denver traded up to 42 to pick Lock. I'd also take Lock every Sunday over Rosen he has swag that competitive fire he raises the levels of play of those around him you can just tell the difference.

Rosens attitude reminds me of Connor Cooks and I hated him coming out and he flamed out 

[thebestever6]

Also Ryan Fitzpatrick looked good with the same tanking Dolphin's while Rosen looked lost the cream rises to the top Rosen just doesn't have it.

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Gonna disagree with you right there.  Browns may have had a worse record than the Cardinals before the 2018 draft but they were significantly more talented.  Similar to the Bengals this year.  I expect them to have a really good season because they had way more talent than their 2-14 record last year suggested.

We'll see who is better over the course of their careers.  Mayfield definitely has the better start thus far thanks to his 2018 season.  But I'm sticking with my pre-draft evaluation that Josh Rosen will be the better QB over the course of their careers.

Browns had also proven to be far worse organizationally. That matters in the performance of QBs. Many Browns QBs with similar team talent have failed.

What’s more Baker and Kyler both did similar things at Oklahoma statistically. While I had Kyler slightly higher, the fact that Kyler was able to drastically outperform Rosen also doesn’t make me any more confident that he’s on Baker’s level.

I mean team talent is cool and all, but at what point do we scrap the argument. Some QBs go an entire career and never have the same weapons as others. We can only judge them by what they do with said weapons. Rosen had Fitzgerald coming off a 1000 yd season and Kirk, along with largely the same RBs as Murray. Yet one guy (Murray) won OROY and the other guy had roughly a bottom 5 rookie QB performance in NFL history.

At this stage there is enough NFL evaluation to render the college evaluation mostly irrelevant. But hey we’ll see. Rosen is on the Bucs with some of the best receiver talent we’ve seen. He’s (seemingly) got a redshirt season in store to learn their system and compete for 2nd string next season. If he can’t make something happen on that squad given Brady’s age and those tools and who he has for competition... he’s likely never going to get it done.

Edited September 13, 2020 by diamondbull424

[offbyone]

He is going to be swimming against the stream, but it tells you enough that his previous OC wanted him back.  

[VanS]

2 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

Also Ryan Fitzpatrick looked good with the same tanking Dolphin's while Rosen looked lost the cream rises to the top Rosen just doesn't have it.

Fitzpatrick has more mobility and can make something happen out of nothing.  That sort of QB can succeed even when surrounded by subpar talent.  Rosen has poor mobility so he needs a good o-line and receivers that can separate to look good.