How is Mike Mayock doing so far?

[Jerry]

13 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Yeah our LB are more than fine. Need better DL play and secondary play around them. 

Free safety was atrocious and the defense will transform if we can put a ++ player there. Ditto for DT. That's a given.

If we did nothing else but add a premium free safety (Maye for example) and trade for an established defensive tackle (say Johnathan Allen), I would bank on a big improvement on defense.

Yeah a lot of us are definitely on the same page.  Massively upgrade at FS and DT and our defense should improve greatly.  But I think we all know the DE position opposite of Crosby needs to be upgraded.  Our depth after Mullen and Arnette at CB is trash compared to other teams (NCB is another position we need for sure IMO).  A third starting caliber LB would help.  We are hoping Abram is capable of taking over at SS, but without discipline we may be struggling there as well.  We really need to reload the defense with more ammunition.

[Jerry]

3 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Definitely on Moreau and Crosby. They both embody what people simply "want" others to. What I mean is, a lot of people talk about "potential". "Well, Arnette has potential", for example. Based on what? Underwear Olympics? Crosby and Moreau are guys we've seen produce, so they have potential. Guys like Arnette or Abram or Ferrell have not really produced to a degree to say there's bankable potential.

Like you said, they have physical traits. Wooo, right? Physical traits really mean very little if they can't play at a pro level. Back in the day, pre-knee injuries and age, I made some snarky comment to a coworker that Julio Jones wasn't some absolutely unheard of freak mega athlete (boy...was I ever wrong lol). What I meant though, was that too much was being made of his physical traits and not his football ability. He responded with a challenge for me to go through combine drills. So I did. I played in high school and some JUCO, so I was still in pretty solid shape. My "combine" numbers were good enough to match up with a couple of guys who got drafted thw year before. I wanna say I ran like a 4.48, had something like a 9 1/2 ft broad jump, came in at like 6'2 and some change and somewhere in the range of 205. Now, it was nothing to write home about per se, but I proved my point- I'm no Julio Jones, either in terms of raw athleticism or football skills. In fact, I'm no Chaz Schillens. Maybe Seth Roberts? (I kid). But I, just a regular, fairly in shape guy at the time, could put up decent enough numbers in the Underwear Olympics. Physical traits are great, but without great football skills, you're not making it to the big schools, much less the pros. So you're right, everyone in the pros has those (except Ladarius Gunter. Whoever thought he was fast enough to play CB...you're a fool.) and they guarantee nothing. I'm glad someone else doesn't fawn over those and recognizes it for what it is. Crosby and Moreau have shown that there's something untapped, be it better play or even just consistent play at their current level. A lot of our guys just have lip service "potential" because we talk ourselves into them having something unseen. 

As for our D...yeah we've got to add a ton. Arnette, Abram, and Ferrell's play would have them benched by now if not for their status as recent 1st rounders. Maaaaybe not Ferrell, but he's pushing that limit. Unfortunately, like you said, even our "stars" are really pretty average. I think Mullen and Crosby might have a little more to tap before they peak, but neither Kwit nor Littleton project to be major difference makers unless the scheme change makes huge overall differences. Nice pieces, but probably not stars. The rest....yeah, hot garbage. Our long term plug-a-hole-and-pray method of fixing the D isn't cutting it. Like how we managed to totally ignore LB for almost a decade to the point of it being joked about even by commentary.

No player at all is ever a sure thing, but we've at least got to make the effort to use our resources on 2 D-linemen, a FS, and either a CB or LB just to supplement the few legit guys we have. If it doesn't work, at least we tried. I'll be happy as long as it isn't ignored. 

On the same page with your whole post.  I pretty much said the same (bolded) in a post I just wrote.  We can't afford to ignore our defense this offseason, it would be season suicide.

[Darbsk]

14 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Yeah a lot of us are definitely on the same page.  Massively upgrade at FS and DT and our defense should improve greatly.  But I think we all know the DE position opposite of Crosby needs to be upgraded.  Our depth after Mullen and Arnette at CB is trash compared to other teams (NCB is another position we need for sure IMO).  A third starting caliber LB would help.  We are hoping Abram is capable of taking over at SS, but without discipline we may be struggling there as well.  We really need to reload the defense with more ammunition.

I'm probably in a very small minority but from what I've seen Ferrell looks to me a pretty good DE. He just doesn't have the electric burst or much of a speed rush you expect of a top pick but he's strong, plays with good leverage and is smart. Crosby is the better out and out pass rusher, though he's not a speed rusher either really but I'm not sure he's the better overall player all things considered. A very good DT I'm convinced would make both Ferrell and Crosby so much more effective as neither really have the speed to bend the edge and get to the QB by blowing past the OT so they need that interior push to help them get home.

[oakdb36]

1 hour ago, Darbsk said:

I'm probably in a very small minority but from what I've seen Ferrell looks to me a pretty good DE. He just doesn't have the electric burst or much of a speed rush you expect of a top pick but he's strong, plays with good leverage and is smart. Crosby is the better out and out pass rusher, though he's not a speed rusher either really but I'm not sure he's the better overall player all things considered. A very good DT I'm convinced would make both Ferrell and Crosby so much more effective as neither really have the speed to bend the edge and get to the QB by blowing past the OT so they need that interior push to help them get home.

Ferrell is our best DE as far as i'm concerned. If Crosby is a better pass rusher, that's not by much. And Cle is a better run defender.

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

Ferrell is our best DE as far as i'm concerned. If Crosby is a better pass rusher, that's not by much. And Cle is a better run defender.

It was noticeable in run defense with him out. He'll never live up to his draft slot, but he's a solid starter overall. Both DEs will benefit if they finally get a 3t that can push the pocket. It's been way to easy for opposing QBs to step into a clean pocket for years now.

I will say, I'm surprised by Hurst and Key's lack of development. 2 players who both had 1st round grades at one point and fell because of health reasons. Lauded as steals on draft day, haven't developed into much no over 3 years. Is it coaching? Talent? 

[oakdb36]

22 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I will say, I'm surprised by Hurst and Key's lack of development. 2 players who both had 1st round grades at one point and fell because of health reasons. Lauded as steals on draft day, haven't developed into much no over 3 years. Is it coaching? Talent? 

I was a huge fan of Hurst and i don't really understand what's going on with him. He's not bad at all but he's not playing much. I can get they don't want him starting in the base but he's not getting enough snaps in sub packages. I guess we'll see if it changes under Bradley.

Edited February 12, 2021 by oakdb36

[ronjon1990]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

It was noticeable in run defense with him out. He'll never live up to his draft slot, but he's a solid starter overall. Both DEs will benefit if they finally get a 3t that can push the pocket. It's been way to easy for opposing QBs to step into a clean pocket for years now.

I will say, I'm surprised by Hurst and Key's lack of development. 2 players who both had 1st round grades at one point and fell because of health reasons. Lauded as steals on draft day, haven't developed into much no over 3 years. Is it coaching? Talent? 

This is where I waffle a bit on grading him out. Yes, he made a difference in our putrid run game. Yeah, he's been a decent DE. But if not for being the 4th overall pick just a couple of years ago, does he even sniff the field for a respectable defense? Or is he among the best of some of the worst so he gets chances to "stand out"?

A top 5 pick at DE averaging 32.5 tackle and like 3.25 sacks per year doesn't usually last very long on teams that know what they're doing. That lack of production, on a D as bad as our, just shows how mediocre he is imo. If mediocre overall players (Crosby, Kwit) can look like potential studs but he produces zilch other than a bit of an uptick compared to practice squad guys, that tells me he's painfully replaceable. 

Agreed on Hurst/Key. I would have thought that at least one of our later picks that looked like immediate steals would've panned out. Hurst, Key, Calhoun, Vanderdoes....of you're goiing by college tape and traits, that's an All-Star D-line we've had come through recently that did nothing...and they're hardly alone.

[big_palooka]

3 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

I was a huge fan of Hurst and i don't really understand what's going on with him. He's not bad at all but he's not playing much. I can get they don't want him starting in the base but he's not getting enough snaps in sub packages. I guess we'll see if it changes under Bradley.

He's looked good when given opportunities, but you're right not getting a lot of snaps. He's easily the best interior pass rusher. I expected him to take a step under Rod this season but he was a bit of an afterthought. 

Hope Bradley can pull it out of him. I maintain he's going to be a guy who either clicks here or ends up excelling with a new team in his second act.

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said:

This is where I waffle a bit on grading him out. Yes, he made a difference in our putrid run game. Yeah, he's been a decent DE. But if not for being the 4th overall pick just a couple of years ago, does he even sniff the field for a respectable defense? Or is he among the best of some of the worst so he gets chances to "stand out"?

A top 5 pick at DE averaging 32.5 tackle and like 3.25 sacks per year doesn't usually last very long on teams that know what they're doing. That lack of production, on a D as bad as our, just shows how mediocre he is imo. If mediocre overall players (Crosby, Kwit) can look like potential studs but he produces zilch other than a bit of an uptick compared to practice squad guys, that tells me he's painfully replaceable. 

Agreed on Hurst/Key. I would have thought that at least one of our later picks that looked like immediate steals would've panned out. Hurst, Key, Calhoun, Vanderdoes....of you're goiing by college tape and traits, that's an All-Star D-line we've had come through recently that did nothing...and they're hardly alone.

Can't argue this. I think he's at best a rotational player on most Dlines. I think he has a place in the league as a role player but his standing as a starter is hard to argue. It was apparent almost immediately when they started moving him inside they knew they made a mistake with the pick. 

The organization as a whole is just terrible at developing talent on defense. Really hoping Bradley can upgrade the development of players. It feels like these guys come in with potential over the years and it never materializes with the Raiders. It's odd how systematically terrible the defense has been for 2 decades now. Talentless and terribly coached. There is a lot of stink for Bradly to wash off.

[Jerry]

7 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I'm probably in a very small minority but from what I've seen Ferrell looks to me a pretty good DE. He just doesn't have the electric burst or much of a speed rush you expect of a top pick but he's strong, plays with good leverage and is smart. Crosby is the better out and out pass rusher, though he's not a speed rusher either really but I'm not sure he's the better overall player all things considered. A very good DT I'm convinced would make both Ferrell and Crosby so much more effective as neither really have the speed to bend the edge and get to the QB by blowing past the OT so they need that interior push to help them get home.

I think he played great in the Jets game, but if you subtract that from his season he'd probably be talked about the same way M. Collins is right now.  I do agree though that a very good DT would make him and Crosby look better, but I don't think it would be by much.  It would just show that he needs a DT to be productive.  Crosby has 17 sacks in two seasons with the same exact DL.  Ferrell has like 5? 6? In two seasons.  Ferrell to me is = to that DE Mauro we had like a season or two ago.  Just not happy with him as a player.  I really hope we look to replace him with a player that can get us 10 sacks a season.

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

It was noticeable in run defense with him out. He'll never live up to his draft slot, but he's a solid starter overall. Both DEs will benefit if they finally get a 3t that can push the pocket. It's been way to easy for opposing QBs to step into a clean pocket for years now.

I will say, I'm surprised by Hurst and Key's lack of development. 2 players who both had 1st round grades at one point and fell because of health reasons. Lauded as steals on draft day, haven't developed into much no over 3 years. Is it coaching? Talent? 

I think Hurst benefited the same way Ferrell did with having a really good DL in college.  I believe he had Winovich (a player I wanted us to get in the second) and that other DE that went in the first that I kind of thought would be a bust and kind of is, but he was super athletic.  Just writing this makes me want to write a letter to Mayock to stop drafting DL from teams that have stacked DLs.  We need to start focusing on those players who can produce double digit sack seasons on DLs that have a bunch of no names.  Probably the smart way to start drafting in the long run.  It's like someone else said, perfect example is Alabama, so much talent everywhere that they can mask player's deficiencies and have you missing in the draft.

[Jerry]

24 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

He's looked good when given opportunities, but you're right not getting a lot of snaps. He's easily the best interior pass rusher. I expected him to take a step under Rod this season but he was a bit of an afterthought. 

Hope Bradley can pull it out of him. I maintain he's going to be a guy who either clicks here or ends up excelling with a new team in his second act.

I think he needs to bulk up and add some muscle.  His initial burst is amazing, but he always gets stopped after about 2-3 steps back.  Can't ever seem to shake the OL he's going up against.  I've always noticed that about him.  You see him get these amazing pushes, just to be stopped in his tracks and handled.  He really needs to add to his pass rushing arsenal.

[oakdb36]

19 minutes ago, Jerry said:

I think he played great in the Jets game, but if you subtract that from his season he'd probably be talked about the same way M. Collins is right now.

Absolutely not. That's judging him solely on sack numbers.

[Jerry]

6 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

Absolutely not. That's judging him solely on sack numbers.

Lol.  I'm just saying I'd be much happier if he was healthy, had 8 sacks, and did it against teams other than just the Jets.  I still want to find a better player.

[NYRaider]

On 2/12/2021 at 5:13 AM, big_palooka said:

Is it coaching? Talent? 

Scheme, coaching, talent, and the lack of one real true difference maker. Our biggest issue defensively, especially on the DL, is that we have a bunch of role players. We don't have anyone that commands double teams or makes life easier for guys around him. 

Shaq Barrett was an afterthought in Denver who had never really produced at all. He gets to Tampa Bay where he's playing alongside JPP, Suh, and Veta then all of the sudden he becomes one of the best pass rushers in the league. Hell even Nassib had 6.5 sacks playing with that group last season. 

[NYRaider]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:46 AM, oakdb36 said:

Ferrell is our best DE as far as i'm concerned. If Crosby is a better pass rusher, that's not by much. And Cle is a better run defender.

Ferrell is alright but when you look at his career so far he has 6.5 sacks in 26 games and 4.5 of those sacks came in two games, 2.5 against the Chargers last year and 2 against the Jets this year. Which means he has produced 2 sacks in 24 games outside of that.