How is Mike Mayock doing so far?

[OG_C2X]

Ferrell, Mullen, Crosby and Abrams 2nd year players. Abrams played 1 game last year.

Kwiatkowski, Littleton, Collins and Nassib are in their first year of the system. 

Arnette is a rookie. 

C'mon and give this defense some time to gel. 

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, Geezy said:

The best units are the ones that have had consistency and cohesiveness. Name one unit offense or defense that has had as much turnover as our defense that is having success? We have like 3 guys on defense that have been here longer than 2 years. 

That's a fair point. But we've also probably added more talent on defense than any team in the league the last two offseason's and are on pace to be one of the worst defenses in the history of the NFL. Do you just wait and pray that after 3-5 years of mediocrity, 6-7 early picks, and $200M that Gunther can coach our defense to be average? 

I'd also have more faith if Gunther actually had an impressive coaching resume, but he doesn't. In 6 full seasons as a DC: 

Yards per game allowed: Never had a defense finish in the top 10 and ranked 17th or lower in 5/6 seasons. 

Points per game allowed: Has had 2 defenses finish in the top 10, 1 finish 12th, and 3 others finish in the bottom half of the league. 

Sacks: Has had 1 defense finish in the top 10, 1 finish 11th, and 4 finish 20th or lower. (Including 2 seasons where they ranked 32nd in sacks)

Turnovers: Has had 2 defenses finish in the top 10 and the other 4 finished 20th or lower. (Including 1 season at 31st and one at 32nd)

If you took an average of his 6 seasons his defenses have averaged 354 ypg allowed, 22.6 ppg allowed, 30 sacks, and 20 takeaways. Which would've ranked in 2019: 19th for ypg allowed, 16th in points allowed, 27th in sacks, and 19th in takeaways. 

[dante9876]

I dont watch this defense and think they just need more time to gel. I see a bad front 7 with an out dated scheme to match their talents. Geno and Dunlap clearly made guenther look better than he actually is. 

[NYRaider]

19 minutes ago, dante9876 said:

I dont watch this defense and think they just need more time to gel. I see a bad front 7 with an out dated scheme to match their talents. Geno and Dunlap clearly made guenther look better than he actually is. 

Guenther has to go soon, he's never been great and has been terrible here. And I think it's probable or why else did we bring in Rod M?

Looking at their resumes...

Top half of league in ypg allowed - Rod: 6/9 seasons | Guenther: 1/6 seasons

Top half of league in ppg allowed: Rod: 9/9 seasons | Guenther: 3/6 seasons 

30+ sacks in a season: Rod: 8/9 seasons | Guenther: 4/6 seasons 

20+ takeaways in a season: Rod: 7/9 seasons | Guenther: 3/6 seasons

Team made the playoffs: Rod: 4/9 seasons | Guenther: 2/6 seasons 

Losing seasons as a DC: Rod: 1/9 seasons | Guenther: 4/6 seasons

Average wins of teams as DC: Rod: 9.5 wins | Guenther: 7.6 wins 

 

[Humble_Beast]

32 minutes ago, dante9876 said:

I dont watch this defense and think they just need more time to gel. I see a bad front 7 with an out dated scheme to match their talents. Geno and Dunlap clearly made guenther look better than he actually is. 

His scheme only works if the front 4 can dominant the LOS. Our front isn’t good enough against average to good offensive lines. Our defense looked good last year when we played pathetic OLs like the Chargers and Bengals. 

[Humble_Beast]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

Guenther has to go soon, he's never been great and has been terrible here. And I think it's probable or why else did we bring in Rod M?

Looking at their resumes...

Top half of league in ypg allowed - Rod: 6/9 seasons | Guenther: 1/6 seasons

Top half of league in ppg allowed: Rod: 9/9 seasons | Guenther: 3/6 seasons 

30+ sacks in a season: Rod: 8/9 seasons | Guenther: 4/6 seasons 

20+ takeaways in a season: Rod: 7/9 seasons | Guenther: 3/6 seasons

Team made the playoffs: Rod: 4/9 seasons | Guenther: 2/6 seasons 

Losing seasons as a DC: Rod: 1/9 seasons | Guenther: 4/6 seasons

Average wins of teams as DC: Rod: 9.5 wins | Guenther: 7.6 wins 

 

Hoping this happens during the Bye. Our bye is early so we can still save the season 

[NYRaider]

Just now, Humble_Beast said:

His scheme only works if the front 4 can dominant the LOS. Our front isn’t good enough against average to good offensive lines. Our defense looked good last year when we played pathetic OLs like the Chargers and Bengals. 

His scheme has never been great though. The Bengals were never a defensive juggernaut under Guenther. He inherited a defense that was top 10 in both scoring defense/yards allowed in the 3 consecutive seasons and in 4/5 seasons before he took over as DC under Zimmer. Under Guenther the Bengals had 0 seasons where they ranked in the top 10 in yards allowed and only 2 seasons where they ranked in the top 10 in points allowed. 

In the 3 years before Guenther took over the Bengals averaged 313 ypg allowed, 19 ppg allowed, 46 sacks per year, and 28 takeaways per year.

In Guenther's 4 years with the Bengals they averaged 347 ypg allowed, 20 ppg allowed, 34 sacks, and 22 takeaways per year. 

[Humble_Beast]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

His scheme has never been great though. The Bengals were never a defensive juggernaut under Guenther. He inherited a defense that was top 10 in both scoring defense/yards allowed in the 3 consecutive seasons and in 4/5 seasons before he took over as DC under Zimmer. Under Guenther the Bengals had 0 seasons where they ranked in the top 10 in yards allowed and only 2 seasons where they ranked in the top 10 in points allowed. 

In the 3 years before Guenther took over the Bengals averaged 313 ypg allowed, 19 ppg allowed, 46 sacks per year, and 28 takeaways per year.

In Guenther's 4 years with the Bengals they averaged 347 ypg allowed, 20 ppg allowed, 34 sacks, and 22 takeaways per year. 

I agree, there Defenses were stacked but only good during his time. With that talent on paper, they should have been great 

[drfrey13]

8 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Littleton has been pretty damn bad this year. And the best ability is availability and who knows when Kwit will be back on the field for us. We've invested into the DL under Mayock by drafting Ferrell #4, signing Collins to a $6M/yr deal, and Nassibg to a $7.5M/yr deal but all three of those guys have been meh. 

One injury is just bad luck.  The LB core is not going to function properly because we do not have a viable talent to take over for him.  Exactly what a few of us were saying before the season.  With the front 4 not living up to what was expected you expose your LBs.  As soon as Kwit got hurt they should have tried to bring Burfict back.  They should still do that now.  He is the only player that would be effective in Guenther's defense that we can bring off the street to play next Sunday.  As far as DTs go we need someone who commands a double team.  The Ferrell pick hurts and we will not go in a different direction for the next couple years.  All we can do is hope he improves.

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, OG_C2X said:

Ferrell, Mullen, Crosby and Abrams 2nd year players. Abrams played 1 game last year.

Kwiatkowski, Littleton, Collins and Nassib are in their first year of the system. 

Arnette is a rookie. 

C'mon and give this defense some time to gel. 

Although I think the talent level is not great, what is holding them back the most is coaching.

[Humble_Beast]

Makes that Muse pick even more annoying, could use a LB who could actually play. 

[NYRaider]

22 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Although I think the talent level is not great, what is holding them back the most is coaching.

Heath/Collins were both starters for a top 10 defense the last three seasons, Joyner/Littleton were both starters for an above average Rams defense for multiple years, Kwiatkowski was a contributor/starter for 3 years on a Bears defense that was top 10, and Nassib was a contributor/starter for a Buccaneers defense that had one of the best pass rushes in the league over the last two seasons. 

I don't like to use PFF as an end all be all but...

Heath - 2017: 76.6 (18th S), 2018: 56.4 (81st S), 2019: 67.9 (42nd S), 2020: 64.4 (Unranked)

Collins - 2019: 77.6 pass rush grade, 2020: 55.4 pass rush grade

Joyner - 2017: 91.0 grade (91.3 coverage grade), 2018: 74.9 grade (71.2 coverage grade), 2019: 47.5 grade (44.4 coverage grade), 2020: 48.0 grade (56.4 coverage grade)

Littleton - 2018: 66.0 grade (83.1 coverage grade | 42.4 run defense grade), 2019: 79.0 grade (82.3 coverage grade | 64.7 run defense grade), 2020: 31.5 grade (39.7 coverage grade | 34.7 run defense grade)

Nassib - 2018: 68.7 grade (44th edge), 2019: 69.2 grade (42nd edge), 2020: 55.2. grade (Unranked)

We've also seen guys like Rashan Melvin and Bruce Irvin come off of career years in 2017 and then completely disappear in 2018 in Gunther's system. 

At what point do we accept that a vanilla scheme where we hardly blitz, play 10 yards off every play, and lacks any sort of creativity doesn't work in the modern NFL? 

Edited September 28, 2020 by NYRaider

[NYRaider]

34 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Although I think the talent level is not great, what is holding them back the most is coaching.

And again, you can make a case that our talent level isn't great for sure. But we should at least have a respectable unit after shelling out $130M in free agency and spending 4 1st/2nd round picks on defensive players over the last two off-seasons. Obviously it's a small sample size for Littleton, Nassib, and Collins but those three and Joyner were coming off of back to back career years for good defenses before they got here and have completely fallen off of a cliff in Guenther's system. 

Rashan Melvin was coming off of a season where he allowed a 60.0 QB rating in coverage and had a 77.9 grade via PFF. In one year in Guenther's system he allowed a 96.2 QB rating in coverage and had a 60.5 grade via PFF. 

Bruce Irvin was coming off of 15.0 sacks in 2 seasons here with a 76.3 and 70.6 grade via PFF before Guenther got here. In half a year in Guenther's system he had 3 sacks and a 59.1 grade via PFF, by far the worst in his career. 

Why is that guys play well in other places but then fall off when they get here in Guenther's system? It has legitimately happened every single season he has been here. 

[drfrey13]

11 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

And again, you can make a case that our talent level isn't great for sure. But we should at least have a respectable unit after shelling out $130M in free agency and spending 4 1st/2nd round picks on defensive players over the last two off-seasons. Obviously it's a small sample size for Littleton, Nassib, and Collins but those three and Joyner were coming off of back to back career years for good defenses before they got here and have completely fallen off of a cliff in Guenther's system. 

Rashan Melvin was coming off of a season where he allowed a 60.0 QB rating in coverage and had a 77.9 grade via PFF. In one year in Guenther's system he allowed a 96.2 QB rating in coverage and had a 60.5 grade via PFF. 

Bruce Irvin was coming off of 15.0 sacks in 2 seasons here with a 76.3 and 70.6 grade via PFF before Guenther got here. In half a year in Guenther's system he had 3 sacks and a 59.1 grade via PFF, by far the worst in his career. 

Why is that guys play well in other places but then fall off when they get here in Guenther's system? It has legitimately happened every single season he has been here. 

I believe Guenther does not know how to adapt his system.  I just got a chance to watch the game today and I am happy I got to watch the compressed version.  We were clearly the better team but mistakes, injuries, and BB making adjustments at the half made the difference.

[Darbsk]

9 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

One injury is just bad luck.  The LB core is not going to function properly because we do not have a viable talent to take over for him.  Exactly what a few of us were saying before the season.

Exactly this. As you say, one injury is bad luck but having no suitable replacement at a key position in a season such as this where injuries were likely and Covid could rule out any player at any time is simply bad planning or neglect.