Raiders place Marcus Mariota on IR

[Darbsk]

On 10/14/2020 at 10:59 PM, NYRaider said:

Bowden was just an average prospect as a slot WR and that's probably his best role in the NFL. I think the biggest issue with him is that he's kind of a jack of all trades but a master of none. He's good with the ball in his hands but his running style doesn't really translate into being a full-time RB and his best position is probably the slot but he's not a great route runner. 

The worrying thing though is that practically everyone here thought this or something similar and there was a lot of doubt about his being able to be a full time RB yet our FO burned a valuable 3rd round pick on a project that they wanted to shoehorn into a role and clearly didnt have the requisite experience, skill set or locker room fit.

It's worrying that a lot of us amateurs picked that up straight away aswell as the Muse 'reach' yet our FO was oblivious apparently 😁😁 just hope its not a frequent thing.

[BackinBlack]

16 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Oh course it was hyperbolic.... it was typical freak out rant on my part... 

while things are going good for us currently.... Mayock still bombed on Bowden and Muse in the draft.  How can you spend 2 3rds and neither can make a team that isn’t very deep at all.

i was pro Arnette immediately after finding out he didn’t run a 4.57.... although he still should have traded down and gotten him still.  MM admitted the were offers and he’d still have been able to get Arnette.  That’s 2 wasted 3rds and approx a 3rd and 5th in opportunity cost by not trading down.  That’s a lot of draft capital right there.

I’ve always been one of the highest people here on Ferrell.... mainly because I’m willing to be blissfully ignorant and just pray he’ll become a lesser version of Cameron Jordan.

i said Agholor would be a nice pickup from day 1 and was so-so on Booker.  

but now it’s apparent that I was absolutely Right that Collins was going to be a massive disappointment and Nassib should only have been offered 1yr guaranteed.  Yes, he’s on the books for 9.5M next year and we basically can’t cut him to save any money.

i was for Ceedee Lamb who has been balling out but was understanding of the Ruggs pick.  I said he’d open up The offense but not be a high volume target, which I was right about.

basically nothing has changed about my beliefs in MM other than the fact the offense is playing so well that it’s covered up his bad moves.

i still like the guy..... he just has to learn from his mistakes and not waste cap space on duds and draft picks.

 

And oh yeah.... how’s pj hall playing in Houston? Pretty darn good.  Should have kept him like I said.  That was another really bad move by MM.

And don’t get be started on how he should have addressed DT, LB, and S in FA prior to the start of the season.... we could have used more depth.

Hahaha I feel ya man. There have def been some questionable moves as you pointed out. And I also wanted Ceedee bad, but Ruggs is showing why we took him. 
I’m just very happy to be sitting 3-2 at our bye week!

[NYRaider]

11 hours ago, Darbsk said:

The worrying thing though is that practically everyone here thought this or something similar and there was a lot of doubt about his being able to be a full time RB yet our FO burned a valuable 3rd round pick on a project that they wanted to shoehorn into a role and clearly didnt have the requisite experience, skill set or locker room fit.

It's worrying that a lot of us amateurs picked that up straight away aswell as the Muse 'reach' yet our FO was oblivious apparently 😁😁 just hope its not a frequent thing.

At the time everyone on here was a fan of the pick and thought we'd use him all over the field. I'm almost 100% positive that Bowden being cut was more of a locker room issue then a role or fit issue. Muse clearly wasn't ready to play either and we found a way to stash him for the year while we immediately looked to move on from Bowden who was making an even tougher transition amid reports of him being out late night, not knowing the playbook, and being more concerned about off the field topics than football. 

I'm also not going to bash Mayock too much on the Muse pick before we've seen him play a down. From an athletic stand point he's pretty much identical to Devin White who had an up and down rookie year but has been much better this season. And we've seen Isaiah Simmons who came out of the same defense in a similar role struggle this year despite being heralded as a can't miss prospect and one of the safest players in the draft.  

[NYRaider]

21 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

while things are going good for us currently.... Mayock still bombed on Bowden and Muse in the draft.  How can you spend 2 3rds and neither can make a team that isn’t very deep at all.

i was pro Arnette immediately after finding out he didn’t run a 4.57.... although he still should have traded down and gotten him still.  MM admitted the were offers and he’d still have been able to get Arnette.  That’s 2 wasted 3rds and approx a 3rd and 5th in opportunity cost by not trading down.  That’s a lot of draft capital right there.

i was for Ceedee Lamb who has been balling out but was understanding of the Ruggs pick.  I said he’d open up The offense but not be a high volume target, which I was right about.

And oh yeah.... how’s pj hall playing in Houston? Pretty darn good.  Should have kept him like I said.  That was another really bad move by MM.

And don’t get be started on how he should have addressed DT, LB, and S in FA prior to the start of the season.... we could have used more depth.

It's pretty hard to call Muse a bombed pick when we haven't seen him play a down here yet. He's learning a new position during an offseason with no OTA, no preseason, and a limited training camp. His athletic testing numbers were almost identical to Devin White's who had an up and down rookie season and looks much better this year. 

When did he admit there were offers to trade down where he still could've acquired Arnette? And that's impossible to know because you don't know how high other teams were on him or if he would've still been on the board when we picked later. 

Lamb has certainly played well but he's also in the most pass happy offense in the league with two other Pro Bowl level WR's so he's not getting #1 CB's week in and week out. And hard to say that Ruggs isn't a high volume target when we've only seen him on the field at 100% for 6 quarters. 

Hall has looked decent for the Texans but showed up to camp severely overweight for the 3rd straight year and was so out of shape that he failed a physical with the Vikings as well. He has 1 sack in 6 games and with him in their rotation Houston is currently giving up 180 rushing yards per game, which is worst in the league. So was it really a bad move by MM? I think it was another instance of trying to build a culture here as well. You can't give guys a pass because they were drafted high, especially when Hall has been called out by name on numerous occasions by the staff. 

Randall not working out was a killer for our S depth because if he was an average starter we would've had 4 solid safeties. I disagree about LB as well we signed Littleton/Kwit, brought back Morrow/Wilber, traded for McMillian, and drafted Muse in the 3rd round. 

[Darbsk]

10 hours ago, NYRaider said:

At the time everyone on here was a fan of the pick and thought we'd use him all over the field. I'm almost 100% positive that Bowden being cut was more of a locker room issue then a role or fit issue. Muse clearly wasn't ready to play either and we found a way to stash him for the year while we immediately looked to move on from Bowden who was making an even tougher transition amid reports of him being out late night, not knowing the playbook, and being more concerned about off the field topics than football. 

I'm also not going to bash Mayock too much on the Muse pick before we've seen him play a down. From an athletic stand point he's pretty much identical to Devin White who had an up and down rookie year but has been much better this season. And we've seen Isaiah Simmons who came out of the same defense in a similar role struggle this year despite being heralded as a can't miss prospect and one of the safest players in the draft.  

I stand corrected then! Myself and a few select others thought it was a bad pick 😁😁 maybe I remember the draft grades thread where this wasn't a well received pick! 

[Bitty 2.0]

13 hours ago, NYRaider said:

At the time everyone on here was a fan of the pick and thought we'd use him all over the field. I'm almost 100% positive that Bowden being cut was more of a locker room issue then a role or fit issue. Muse clearly wasn't ready to play either and we found a way to stash him for the year while we immediately looked to move on from Bowden who was making an even tougher transition amid reports of him being out late night, not knowing the playbook, and being more concerned about off the field topics than football. 

I'm also not going to bash Mayock too much on the Muse pick before we've seen him play a down. From an athletic stand point he's pretty much identical to Devin White who had an up and down rookie year but has been much better this season. And we've seen Isaiah Simmons who came out of the same defense in a similar role struggle this year despite being heralded as a can't miss prospect and one of the safest players in the draft.  

Didn't he take a phone call from a card dealership during a meeting and that was the last straw for the Raiders.

[jimkelly02]

13 hours ago, NYRaider said:

It's pretty hard to call Muse a bombed pick when we haven't seen him play a down here yet. He's learning a new position during an offseason with no OTA, no preseason, and a limited training camp. His athletic testing numbers were almost identical to Devin White's who had an up and down rookie season and looks much better this year. 

When did he admit there were offers to trade down where he still could've acquired Arnette? And that's impossible to know because you don't know how high other teams were on him or if he would've still been on the board when we picked later. 

Lamb has certainly played well but he's also in the most pass happy offense in the league with two other Pro Bowl level WR's so he's not getting #1 CB's week in and week out. And hard to say that Ruggs isn't a high volume target when we've only seen him on the field at 100% for 6 quarters. 

Hall has looked decent for the Texans but showed up to camp severely overweight for the 3rd straight year and was so out of shape that he failed a physical with the Vikings as well. He has 1 sack in 6 games and with him in their rotation Houston is currently giving up 180 rushing yards per game, which is worst in the league. So was it really a bad move by MM? I think it was another instance of trying to build a culture here as well. You can't give guys a pass because they were drafted high, especially when Hall has been called out by name on numerous occasions by the staff. 

Randall not working out was a killer for our S depth because if he was an average starter we would've had 4 solid safeties. I disagree about LB as well we signed Littleton/Kwit, brought back Morrow/Wilber, traded for McMillian, and drafted Muse in the 3rd round. 

Muse couldn’t even make the team, as a third round pick.  He was IR’d to give him a redshirt year and try to learn how to play LB.  If a 3rd round pick can’t make the team... especially with our LB group... that’s a failure.  Maybe Muse can develop into a coverage LB but he was absolutely over drafted and couldn’t contribute year 1.  That’s a bad draft selection.  He was a 5-6th round project who went to Clemson so we drafted him in the third.  Are you really comparing Muse athletically to Devin White?  You lost all credibility with that one.  Numbers do not tell the full story, especially with Muse.  I don’t care what test numbers Muse put up, he is no where near as athletic as White... not even close.  I actually still have hope for Muse, but he will need to either bulk up be able to set the edge as a SAM and be used to cover TEs or gain the much needed lateral agility + gap responsibility and play recognition skills to play WILL and try to be a Matt Milano clone.  Muse compares far far closer to a quicker straight line Matt Milano then Devin White.  Are we seriously defending this pick?  Bowden and Muse were both 3rd round picks who couldn’t make the active roster.  In what world is that ok?  Just cuz I’m criticizing Mayock doesn’t mean he needs to be fired or he’s horrible.  He’s made some great picks and some bad ones.... as do all GMs.  He just needs to get better at not wasting draft capital and Salary cap space with his misses.  

Mayock absolutely said he has offers to trade down and didn’t take them, despite believing he could still get Arnette.  There was very little chance anyone was taking him before Miami at #30.  

https://youtu.be/gCWoh4B9sM
(start at 3:00 mark)

Do you actually try and argue every single point I make?  I said I’m happy with Ruggs, he’s totally changed the offense, now we have the speed to go deep. In time that will open up the run game (once OL is healthy)... Rugg’s has taken this offense to the next level.   But Rugg’s just isn’t a high volume target.  He’s never been.  And that’s okay actually because this offense is about spreading the ball around.  Ruggs doesn’t need 10 catch games to be very successful.  He’s already been very successful in weeks 1+5 with just 2 or 3 catches.  
Lamb would have been the high volume, chain mover.  Ruggs and his speed brings the explosive deep game.  I wanted Lamb pre-draft and would certainly have been very happy with him, but I admit now that Ruggs seems to have been the better pick, assuming he keeps this all up.  I am a little concerned about the injuries though, these ultra fast WRs seem to pull a ton of hammys and lower Body injuries.  Ruggs will obviously have to stay healthy to be successful.

[NYRaider]

5 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Are you really comparing Muse athletically to Devin White?  You lost all credibility with that one.  Numbers do not tell the full story, especially with Muse.  I don’t care what test numbers Muse put up, he is no where near as athletic as White... not even close. 

Mayock absolutely said he has offers to trade down and didn’t take them, despite believing he could still get Arnette.  There was very little chance anyone was taking him before Miami at #30.  

But Rugg’s just isn’t a high volume target.  He’s never been. 

We can only base it on their pre-draft numbers and they were almost identical. You're acting like Muse is a bad athlete when he was a starting safety at Clemson for multiple seasons. Some guys just take more time to develop, especially when learning a new position. That doesn't even account for the fact that he had no OTA's, no preseason games, and a limited training camp to get reps. Isaiah Simmons was considered a can't miss, once in a lifetime prospect, and he can't even see the field in Arizona after being a top 10 pick. 

Muse (6'2" 227): 4.40 forty (1.54 split), 4.12 20-yard shuttle, 7.12 3-cone, 34.5" vert, 10'4" broad

White (6'0" 237): 4.42 forty (1.56 split), 4.17 20-yard shuttle, 7.07 3-cone, 39.5" vert, 9'10" broad

You can assume that Arnette would've still been on the board but you don't know where other teams had him ranked or how other trades would have potentially affected the board. After the draft there were reports that the Vikings loved Arnette and were heavily considering him at #22/#31 if he was on the board. 

Ruggs was also playing in an offense that featured 3 other future 1st round picks at WR. Josh Jacobs was never a bell cow back at Alabama and only had 120 carries in his final season there. Should we have assumed that he'd never be a feature back because of it? 

[jimkelly02]

10 hours ago, NYRaider said:

We can only base it on their pre-draft numbers and they were almost identical. You're acting like Muse is a bad athlete when he was a starting safety at Clemson for multiple seasons. Some guys just take more time to develop, especially when learning a new position. That doesn't even account for the fact that he had no OTA's, no preseason games, and a limited training camp to get reps. Isaiah Simmons was considered a can't miss, once in a lifetime prospect, and he can't even see the field in Arizona after being a top 10 pick. 

Muse (6'2" 227): 4.40 forty (1.54 split), 4.12 20-yard shuttle, 7.12 3-cone, 34.5" vert, 10'4" broad

White (6'0" 237): 4.42 forty (1.56 split), 4.17 20-yard shuttle, 7.07 3-cone, 39.5" vert, 9'10" broad

You can assume that Arnette would've still been on the board but you don't know where other teams had him ranked or how other trades would have potentially affected the board. After the draft there were reports that the Vikings loved Arnette and were heavily considering him at #22/#31 if he was on the board. 

Ruggs was also playing in an offense that featured 3 other future 1st round picks at WR. Josh Jacobs was never a bell cow back at Alabama and only had 120 carries in his final season there. Should we have assumed that he'd never be a feature back because of it? 

I’m not Acting like Muse is a poor athlete at all.  But his test numbers do paint him as a better athlete then he is.  
He doesn’t have poor hips but he definitely doesn’t have great ones either...

again it’s crazy to compare Muse to Devin a White, even just “athletically”.

if your willing to accept the fact that 2 3rd round draft picks:

1) were drafted as position change projects 

2) couldn’t even make the 53 man roster

..::: then I don’t really have any reason to continue this debate.  You don’t draft projects like this is round 3.... these are day 4 players and projects.

honestly.... feel free to think whatever you want... I feel zero need to try and prove a point.  I said i feel that Mayock messed up drafting Bowden and Muse in round 3.... I think it’s pretty self evident based on that fact they didn’t make the team.  If you want to think those were A+ selections feel free to do so.

 

and I never got to talking about the total waste of cap space Mariota, Nassib, and Collins were.  I accept Witten was brought into mentor Waller and Moreau.   I called those guys as bad pick ups from day 1. 
 

I accept every GM has misses.... but Mayock needs to tighten up his decision making and bring in better players.  There’s been way too many mistakes.  Hopefully he does.... he has changed the organization’s culture, which is very important..... and he’s capable of doing better for sure.

[Humble_Beast]

Spot on 

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

I’m not Acting like Muse is a poor athlete at all.  But his test numbers do paint him as a better athlete then he is.  
He doesn’t have poor hips but he definitely doesn’t have great ones either...

again it’s crazy to compare Muse to Devin a White, even just “athletically”.

if your willing to accept the fact that 2 3rd round draft picks:

1) were drafted as position change projects 

2) couldn’t even make the 53 man roster

..::: then I don’t really have any reason to continue this debate.  You don’t draft projects like this is round 3.... these are day 4 players and projects.

It's crazy to compare Muse to White athletically when his testing numbers were almost identical? He was a starting safety at Clemson for 3 years, he's a good athlete. 

Bowden not making the team was almost certainly due to character concerns/being a bad fit in the locker room. Muse got a raw deal switching positions with no OTA's, no preseason games, and limited training camp practices. I'm not going to write a guy off before he has even played a single snap for us, a guys career isn't defined by a 6 game stretch. Plus look at Isaiah Simmons who was considered by some to be the best prospect in the draft and a can't miss pick. He went #8 and is hardly playing for the Cardinals. When he has been on the field he has struggled this year. Are you going to write him off as a terrible pick because he hasn't dominated right out of the gate? 

Isaiah Simmons (#8 pick) - 38.2 overall grade (Non-qualifier) 

Kenneth Murray (#23 pick) - 46.8 overall grade (55/81 LB)

Jordyn Brooks (#27 pick) - 41.1 overall grade (Non-qualifier) 

Patrick Queen (#28 pick) - 42.0 overall grade (68/81 LB) 

Should all of these guys be written off already? 

 

[Darbsk]

6 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Bowden not making the team was almost certainly due to character concerns/being a bad fit in the locker room.

I personally think Mayock has done quite well, few big hits but a few big misses.

I know you're trying to defend Mayock's record but the above is not a defence, it is an even bigger knock on Mayock. Drafting guys with some known red flags then saying it wasn't a playing issue it was a fit issue is totally on the GM rather than the coaches.

I mean, if he struggled to adapt like Muse that could be blamed on the Covid affected TC, changing roles and so on. But if the kid's a bad influence, lazy or doesn't know the playbook etc. That's on the background research, interviews and falls squarely on Mayock does it not?

Edited October 20, 2020 by Darbsk

[NYRaider]

5 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I mean, if he struggled to adapt like Muse that could be blamed on the Covid affected TC, changing roles and so on. But if the kid's a bad influence, lazy or doesn't know the playbook etc. That's on the background research, interviews and falls squarely on Mayock does it not?

A lot harder to assess guys character in a pre-draft like the one we just had though. They had a 15 min face to face with him at the combine but couldn't attend a pro day or get on campus to ask people about him and we couldn't bring him out to the facility for a private workout/visit. So if there were any other meetings they likely happened in a 1-on-1 setting over Zoom which is much different then a pro-day and/or private in person meeting/workout. 

I think there are also certain guys that change once they have some money in their pocket. I mean the Patriots drafted Aaron Hernandez with an early pick and he went on to throw his career away by murdering someone. Shouldn't their management have been able to spot the character concerns/potential issues? 

[Darbsk]

47 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

A lot harder to assess guys character in a pre-draft like the one we just had though. They had a 15 min face to face with him at the combine but couldn't attend a pro day or get on campus to ask people about him and we couldn't bring him out to the facility for a private workout/visit. So if there were any other meetings they likely happened in a 1-on-1 setting over Zoom which is much different then a pro-day and/or private in person meeting/workout. 

I think there are also certain guys that change once they have some money in their pocket. I mean the Patriots drafted Aaron Hernandez with an early pick and he went on to throw his career away by murdering someone. Shouldn't their management have been able to spot the character concerns/potential issues? 

Good points you raise but a professional interviewer would probably be able to discern serious character concerns very quickly, they can be quite evident if the right questions are asked. There will always be guys who are seduced by the money and fame and certain character traits will come out later and it's not always easy to discern who they will be. When we're investing so much in a young man we really should do better than we dud in Bowden's case. He must have been awful character wise to be traded so quickly, you'd think if it was minor he'd have had the benefit of the doubt.

But, in answer to your question regarding Hernandez, yes, they should have been able to spot that potential problem. They probably knew there were issues but thought (incorrectly) they could manage it or help him overcome them and didnt think it would be so bad. 

The issue I have is it's a failure either way, if the guy isn't as talented or ready as you'd believed and scouted or he has work ethic/character issues they're both detrimental to his potential success so you cant give a pass because a young man isn't mature enough but call it a bad pick if he's not talented enough/not ready for a roster spot. 

Maybe you weren't giving MM a pass but that's what it read like!

[NYRaider]

21 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Good points you raise but a professional interviewer would probably be able to discern serious character concerns very quickly, they can be quite evident if the right questions are asked. There will always be guys who are seduced by the money and fame and certain character traits will come out later and it's not always easy to discern who they will be. When we're investing so much in a young man we really should do better than we dud in Bowden's case. He must have been awful character wise to be traded so quickly, you'd think if it was minor he'd have had the benefit of the doubt.

A 15 minute conversation at the combine isn't enough to discover major character concerns.