Browns Fan Psychosis, Reality VS Misperception, & "They are who we should've thought they were"

[Thomas5737]

50 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Age is experience, reps.  College reps, pro reps, reps preparing for a defense, practice reps, etc.  

Does it matter? I think it should/does. 

Hogan has had 14 months of the playbook, professional coaching, a season of running the scout team and an offseason to work on what his rookie year taught him was lacking.

You're being purposefully ridiculous about this for odd reason...

I don't think I am. Hogan had to change his delivery so his time not playing was great for him and he actually improved while not playing because of that. However, as far as playing QB, game reps are greater than anything else. Pretty much all of these guys have played QB through high school and college they understand the position and the hardest part to deal with is likely the speed of the game, nerves/adrenaline at the start of games and the panic of men trying to knock you out of your cleats. That is what separates the good from the rest. Pretty much any player in the NFL has the tools to succeed especially the quarterbacks because they are scouted more than most. There is a reason a lot of quarterbacks look so much better from the shotgun, less pressure of being under pressure and why quarterbacks are more accurate against a prevent defense, they are much more relaxed about pressure. Tom Brady fails when he is getting roughed up, he is good and doesn't get rattled from perceived pressure only the real thing but that isn't the case for the average QB, they have to get over feeling potential pressure when it is unnecessary.

Kizer leaves a clean pocket at times but he doesn't seem too concerned about pressure thus far, he wouldn't be taking so many sacks if he was. That is certainly a good sign for him.

In the last 3 years Kizer has thrown about 850 passes while Hogan has thrown about 350. I personally think that means more than some scout team work and coaching. You don't have to, I'm okay with that.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

10 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

In the last 3 years Kizer has thrown about 850 passes while Hogan has thrown about 350. I personally think that means more than some scout team work and coaching. You don't have to, I'm okay with that.

Clearly cherry picking stats here.

Hogan started 3+ season in college and threw nearly twice as many passes, in a pro style offense at that.

Kizer played/started 2 seasons in Brian Kelly's college offense.

[Bonanza23]

Yeah hogan had 1103 attempts in college. And whatever in the pros.  4 years of college ball. 2 years in the pros. Where as Kizer had 2 years in college and basically a camp and 4 games. Hogan has a ton more experience. I'm not here to protect Kizer. I'm absolutely not sold on Kizer. If we like one of the guys coming out next year and he's a clear upgrade over Kizer than take him. But Kizer is 3 years out of HIGH SCHOOL.   There is a reason why hogan is making quicker decisions. He simply has more experience in hues system. 

But lets be real we may have a good back up finally!

[H2ThaIzzo]

Commenting on OP's discussion of our cornerbacks. Outside of one play, the T.Y. Hilton disaster play, our cornerbacks have been pretty solid this year. AJ Green did next to nothing when McCourty was covering him. BBC I don't think we are using correctly. He rarely seems to play in coverage. We should be using BBC or Taylor on TE's. Honestly TE's have done as much damage against us as anybody. 

[Thomas5737]

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Clearly cherry picking stats here.

Hogan started 3+ season in college and threw nearly twice as many passes, in a pro style offense at that.

Kizer played/started 2 seasons in Brian Kelly's college offense.

Yeah but Kizer had a year of coaching and learning at ND before he played, I thought that counted as experience.

I'm of the belief that sitting doesn't help a QB unless they are clueless. Game experience does much more than anything else to get them comfortable accurately throwing a football on time. Kizer has started a lot more games and thrown a lot more passes in the NFL. If you believe that makes him less experienced then so be it. I just don't see it that way. Josh McCown has been around longer than Aaron Rodgers but If I were asked I'd say that Rodgers is the more experienced QB simply because he has played more snaps in his career.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

5 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Yeah but Kizer had a year of coaching and learning at ND before he played, I thought that counted as experience.

I'm of the belief that sitting doesn't help a QB unless they are clueless. Game experience does much more than anything else to get them comfortable accurately throwing a football on time. Kizer has started a lot more games and thrown a lot more passes in the NFL. If you believe that makes him less experienced then so be it. I just don't see it that way. Josh McCown has been around longer than Aaron Rodgers but If I were asked I'd say that Rodgers is the more experienced QB simply because he has played more snaps in his career.

Hogan was redshirted too, so there's that...

If you believe that Kizer is more experienced at playing qb because he's thrown 150 passes and Hogan has thrown 75 or whatever in the NFL you're again either being purposeful absurd or simply choosing to ignore every other potential factor because it doesn't for your argument.

[Thomas5737]

5 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Hogan was redshirted too, so there's that...

If you believe that Kizer is more experienced at playing qb because he's thrown 150 passes and Hogan has thrown 75 or whatever in the NFL you're again either being purposeful absurd or simply choosing to ignore every other potential factor because it doesn't for your argument.

It's 45 career pass attempts for Hogan. You're playing with the numbers a bit. Kizer had 695 pass attempts in college which was 406 less than Hogan so it is 63% more for Hogan not about double. Kizer has more game experience and starting experience in the NFL. Hogan has been in the league and on the team longer. So Hogan has the longevity advantage and Kizer has the game experience advantage. I think we've probably went on too long with this at this point. We don't even know if Hogan is more advanced because it is too small of a sample size so debating why he is more advanced seems a bit silly...but here we are.

[Mastercheddaar]

I read the whole thing. (I'm weird like that). I agree with plenty you had to say. We need to give Hue a pass this year just like last year. We should not be questioning him or putting him on the hot seat until maybe 2020 if 2019 is another 1-15 season. We are not going to win with this roster. No GM can turn a turd team into a superbowl contender with as many first rounders as we have struck out on. Joe Thomas is the only first round player we connected with in how many picks? 

So here are my points (Just like yours but WAY shorter)

1 - Give Kizer the whole season. Knock off the talk about replacing him with Hogan. We are trying to see if he has what it takes. (AND no you cannot do that with 4 games.) Let the kid improve. We are not going to the playoffs this year or the next. If Kizer settles down and shows enough to prove he can be our guy then he'll save us a 1st overall pick. We can trade that down a few spots for QB hungry teams and take Barkley. Proving Kizer can be our guy helps us out in the long run. 

2 - Give Hue a chance. No WRs, No #1 RB, a new line, a new DC, too many rookies, a bunch of untimely injuries... You cannot evaluate a coach with this staff. Now if he was the coach of a 5-11 or 7-9 team last year and they regressed to this point then I might be agreeing with you. But he is not. A super young team with garbage vets in the skilled positions will not translate to wins. I don't care who the coach is. Only thing I will say is why not screen to Duke more? 

3 - Injuries are playing a key part here. We lost Coleman. Collins is out. Garrett is out. Shelton is out. We get the three back on the defense and we might see vast improvements. Shoot we get Coleman back and maybe Gordon, we might see vast improvements. 

4 - If you must blame a player... Kenny Britt. Disagree?  ... watch him play. He has handed the ball over to the other team literally three times. In the red zone. He single handedly took at minimum 3 field goals off the boards. That's just with HIS ints. There are other penalty plays and drive killing drops that he has done. It is sad when we have to say, "He is the best WR on this team." Rodgers couldn't even win with this clown. I seriously cringe when the ball is thrown to him. I would rather see Stone Hands Morgan out there. 

5 - I'll consider this season a win if we go 2-14 at this point with our young players improving. We ain't going anywhere... play for another very high draft day. All we need to do is turn our 1st rounders into starters. So far it looks like we added 3 from last draft. We'll have another 2 this draft. 

In short, Hue gets a pass along with his coaching staff. Kizer gets a "play 16 games and we'll see". Kenny Britt should get the boot. Go after the best WR in FA along with a corner then draft Barkley. Go BPA from there. 

That is all

Mastercheddaar

[matt27j]

Mind, you hit me right in the head. I thought we'd be better than what has transpired. At the same time who could've predicted that Haden would be released, Myles with high ankle sprain, Coleman with a broken hand, Hue not running ball. Furthermore, we all knew Britt wasn't worth his contract, but he has been the worst pro WR I've ever seen with his penalties and INT deflections. 

There are still bright spots. Kizer has progressed, Ogunjobi is a beast, Duke, TE's, OL are solid. 

Britt and Greg's unwillingness to change his exposed scheme are hard to watch. I hope when Myles gets back he trusts his pass rush and stops giving up the easy stuff and middle of the field. Once again though the silver lining is that because of all the big plays and TD's being given up Kizer has gotten more drives and experience. 

It isn't always about winning right now. If it was the Browns wouldn't be such an experiment. The moneyball FO, the uniform change, the coaching through this first qtr season.

Trying to remain patient is the hardest part when it's not guaranteed that things will work out. The current setup, despite the historic losing, gives the best chance of turning it around. Landing a bunch of great FA's to support draft rebuilds was/is impossible for us so Haslam undertook the only avenue possible to acquire more talent and coaching. 

 

 

 

[Mind Character]

4 hours ago, Mastercheddaar said:

I read the whole thing. (I'm weird like that). I agree with plenty you had to say. We need to give Hue a pass this year just like last year. We should not be questioning him or putting him on the hot seat until maybe 2020 if 2019 is another 1-15 season. We are not going to win with this roster. No GM can turn a turd team into a superbowl contender with as many first rounders as we have struck out on. Joe Thomas is the only first round player we connected with in how many picks? 

So here are my points (Just like yours but WAY shorter)

1 - Give Kizer the whole season. Knock off the talk about replacing him with Hogan. We are trying to see if he has what it takes. (AND no you cannot do that with 4 games.) Let the kid improve. We are not going to the playoffs this year or the next. If Kizer settles down and shows enough to prove he can be our guy then he'll save us a 1st overall pick. We can trade that down a few spots for QB hungry teams and take Barkley. Proving Kizer can be our guy helps us out in the long run. 

2 - Give Hue a chance. No WRs, No #1 RB, a new line, a new DC, too many rookies, a bunch of untimely injuries... You cannot evaluate a coach with this staff. Now if he was the coach of a 5-11 or 7-9 team last year and they regressed to this point then I might be agreeing with you. But he is not. A super young team with garbage vets in the skilled positions will not translate to wins. I don't care who the coach is. Only thing I will say is why not screen to Duke more? 

3 - Injuries are playing a key part here. We lost Coleman. Collins is out. Garrett is out. Shelton is out. We get the three back on the defense and we might see vast improvements. Shoot we get Coleman back and maybe Gordon, we might see vast improvements. 

4 - If you must blame a player... Kenny Britt. Disagree?  ... watch him play. He has handed the ball over to the other team literally three times. In the red zone. He single handedly took at minimum 3 field goals off the boards. That's just with HIS ints. There are other penalty plays and drive killing drops that he has done. It is sad when we have to say, "He is the best WR on this team." Rodgers couldn't even win with this clown. I seriously cringe when the ball is thrown to him. I would rather see Stone Hands Morgan out there. 

5 - I'll consider this season a win if we go 2-14 at this point with our young players improving. We ain't going anywhere... play for another very high draft day. All we need to do is turn our 1st rounders into starters. So far it looks like we added 3 from last draft. We'll have another 2 this draft. 

In short, Hue gets a pass along with his coaching staff. Kizer gets a "play 16 games and we'll see". Kenny Britt should get the boot. Go after the best WR in FA along with a corner then draft Barkley. Go BPA from there. 

That is all

Mastercheddaar

Strong analysis overall. Not many have considered how critical the Collins, Coleman, Garrett, Shelton injuries have been.

The way teams are winning and the way schedules will shake out, it's feasible that the team with the number 1 overall record could be a team with a 3-13 record.

I'm hoping that is us and of course that we get Saquon Barkley in a trade down as well.

Kenny Britt definitely has not earned any more starts and has been a positive momentum killer.

It's unfortunate that replacing Britt are 3 UFAs, late round players with limitations (Louis' Hands; Higgins' speed/quickness) and Sammie Coates.

Maybe Coates, Leslie, Kasen Williams, and Ranell Hall eventually become the main guys by the end of the season?

Kizer seemed to have the best chemistry with Leslie and Ranell Hall in camp and preseason. At this point, it may benefit the offense enough and speed Kizer's clock up if he has guys he can trust.

I don't see it out of Higgins, Louis, or Britt.

[Mind Character]

4 hours ago, matt27j said:

Mind, you hit me right in the head. I thought we'd be better than what has transpired. At the same time who could've predicted that Haden would be released, Myles with high ankle sprain, Coleman with a broken hand, Hue not running ball. Furthermore, we all knew Britt wasn't worth his contract, but he has been the worst pro WR I've ever seen with his penalties and INT deflections. 

There are still bright spots. Kizer has progressed, Ogunjobi is a beast, Duke, TE's, OL are solid. 

Britt and Greg's unwillingness to change his exposed scheme are hard to watch. I hope when Myles gets back he trusts his pass rush and stops giving up the easy stuff and middle of the field. Once again though the silver lining is that because of all the big plays and TD's being given up Kizer has gotten more drives and experience. 

It isn't always about winning right now. If it was the Browns wouldn't be such an experiment. The moneyball FO, the uniform change, the coaching through this first qtr season.

Trying to remain patient is the hardest part when it's not guaranteed that things will work out. The current setup, despite the historic losing, gives the best chance of turning it around. Landing a bunch of great FA's to support draft rebuilds was/is impossible for us so Haslam undertook the only avenue possible to acquire more talent and coaching.

When you add Joe Haden to the mix (even those that didn't believe in his abilities)...it still paints a different picture in that we've been missing Haden, Garrett, Shelton, Collins, Coleman. Before the seasons started, it could've easily been argued that tose are 5 of are top 8 guys on the team with Joe Thomas, Bitonio, & Kirksey being the others.

So, it would be hard for a team to lose 5 of its top 8 players...only leaving mostly youth team wide and ineffectual WRs...to then be competitive and win games.

Larry OGB has been a pleasant surprise regarding how fast he has been able to acclimate to the pro game.

I think we'll see some schematic changes this week on defense....

[Kiwibrown]

We need pressure without 6 man blitzes, also it seems our blitzing is telegraphed really easily. 

[BrownLeader]

I knew this season would be a struggle because I didn't think the team had starter caliber skill position players on offense. I thought the QB would come to play but the pieces around him would suffer even with an improved OL.

What I didn't expect was a coach that (again) almost purposefully set that young QB up for failure. The FO has done Hue no favors, that's clear. But Hue calling an offense like he has solid WRs and a solid veteran QB is just as bad. I agree that Kizer wouldn't look too different from Watson on the Texans. But it's not exactly because of Hopkins, Ellington or Miller. It's that his coach has designed an offense for Watson that gives him easy reads and leans on his running ability.

This season as well as last year, absolutely gives us a good read on Hue as HC and OC. First and foremost being that he's terrible for rookie QBs. In this week's presser he basically said that chunk plays don't come from the running game and that's why he's calling pass plays when they're behind. Unbelievable. So the HC is oblivious that Crowell was one of the leagues top chunk play runners last season? That's literally been Crows game his whole career. Or that you can't have a a 21yr old rookie QB with 2 yrs of college experience, just sit back there and chuck it up play after play?

I don't know anyone that talked up our CBs coming into the year. But this CB group and secondary as a whole is easily better than last year's. Peppers is learning on the fly. He had no position in college. He hasn't been on fire but he's also not looked Isaiah Campbell bad. (..and if Hue was a true offensive genius, we would've already seen him in the backfield on offense) BBC is a young, solid, improving CB. Taylor remains what he was last year, competitive starting CB. McCourty is more consistent than last year Haden. And Kindred has looked like a budding star.

"Misperception: Deshone Kizer has to show that he can win to be the guy..."  Tell that to Kessler.

[Mind Character]

7 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

"Misperception: Deshone Kizer has to show that he can win to be the guy..."  Tell that to Kessler.

 Cody doesn't have the raw tools that Kizer has, and we actually gave Kessler every chance to go out and win the job this year.

So, theoretically, him losing a lot last year didn't take away his chance to start this year however his inability to take a leap in his onfield play denied him the opportunity to start.

It would be great to see Kizer win some, but as he has no major talent around him within the skills positions along with the fact that rookie QBs don't win a lot of games unless they're on good teams means that Kizer ultimately doesn't have to win to be our future franchise QB...

Now...he does have to play well. And...actually...I think he has played relatively well thus far all things considered.

His peak plays and flashes are the best we've had in this town since the Browns came back.

Whether that will be enough to lead us to sustained winning or give Kizer the chance to be our future starter still is yet to be seen.

[BrownLeader]

18 hours ago, Mind Character said:

 and we actually gave Kessler every chance to go out and win the job this year.

 

I'm not so sure about that. It's was clear even from the outside that Hue wasn't really in Kessler's corner. It's even harder to succeed when you know the coach is passing you over. The other thing is that the pre season and camp obviously aren't real games. I've seen plenty QBs look mediocre in the off season then play really well regular season. If Hue was fairly giving Kessler an opportunity this year, he would've been the opening day starter.

I agree that Kizer has played relatively well under the circumstances. But I thought the very same of Kessler last season.