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3 hours ago, Bigbear72 said:

Why?  I hear this take a lot and don't quite get it.  What has he shown that makes you think that he will do better in a different situation?  What makes him better than any of the other 1st round draft bust at QB?  Not being argumentative, I'm just curious as to what others see that I'm not seeing.

Generally speaking because team and coaching matters.   It matters a lot.   It matters more in football than any other sport by a wide margin and it matters more at Qb than any other position.      

But specifically as to Darnold vs. MT:

1.  He is bigger.

2,  He has stronger arm.     

3. He is 3 years younger than MT and started really young.   

4. He played in NFL with far less team talent than MT did.  

5. He played with multiple OCs.

Most young QBs never recover from poor start, but due to his age and circumstance he has a good shot in Carolina under their coaches.   

He is going into his 2nd team at same age that a lot of rookie QBs come into the league.  

I would say odds are still just around 50%, but i can definitely see it happening.

I would say at least 1 team feels same way as they were willing to pay him 10x as much as what MT was offered and trade multiple picks for him.

BTW, I think it is possible for MT to resurrect his career in Buffalo and get a nice back up or even bridge starter contract if Allen goes down and he plays well.   I think talent is such in Buffalo that he can look good. 

I think the stain is such that no one will ever think highly of him though.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Generally speaking because team and coaching matters.   It matters a lot.   It matters more in football than any other sport by a wide margin and it matters more at Qb than any other position.      

But specifically as to Darnold vs. MT:

1.  He is bigger.

2,  He has stronger arm.     

3. He is 3 years younger than MT and started really young.   

4. He played in NFL with far less team talent than MT did.  

5. He played with multiple OCs.

Most young QBs never recover from poor start, but due to his age and circumstance he has a good shot in Carolina under their coaches.   

He is going into his 2nd team at same age that a lot of rookie QBs come into the league.  

I would say odds are still just around 50%, but i can definitely see it happening.

I would say at least 1 team feels same way as they were willing to pay him 10x as much as what MT was offered and trade multiple picks for him.

BTW, I think it is possible for MT to resurrect his career in Buffalo and get a nice back up or even bridge starter contract if Allen goes down and he plays well.   I think talent is such in Buffalo that he can look good. 

I think the stain is such that no one will ever think highly of him though.

 

 

 

 

Cool for MT but doesn't history dictate differently? 

Manziel

Bortles

Manuel

Tebow

Freeman

Quinn

Russell

Leinhart

Young

Lossman

Ramsey

Harrington....

The list goes on and on.  Bad QB play is bad QB play.  Not many (there are some limited exceptions) turn out to be good after being really bad.  I for one am glad we had nothing to do with Darnold.  I may be wrong but I believe history is on my side with this.

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10 hours ago, Bigbear72 said:

Cool for MT but doesn't history dictate differently? 

Manziel

Bortles

Manuel

Tebow

Freeman

Quinn

Russell

Leinhart

Young

Lossman

Ramsey

Harrington....

The list goes on and on.  Bad QB play is bad QB play.  Not many (there are some limited exceptions) turn out to be good after being really bad.  I for one am glad we had nothing to do with Darnold.  I may be wrong but I believe history is on my side with this.

I said vast majority of QBs fail after bad start.  

Reason or point of the post is to say that Dalton has a decent chance to buck that trend in Carolina.

Easy to predict Alabama will be good.  No point to saying it.  

 

 

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13 hours ago, Bigbear72 said:

The list goes on and on.  Bad QB play is bad QB play.  Not many (there are some limited exceptions) turn out to be good after being really bad.  I for one am glad we had nothing to do with Darnold.  I may be wrong but I believe history is on my side with this.

Historically speaking, big bouncebacks don't tend to happen, but there have been exceptions. 

However, that precedent, and Darnolds penchant for turnovers, probably means that Pace didn't really ever consider trading for Darnold. 

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On 4/6/2021 at 4:53 PM, Heinz D. said:

No one wanted to trade for Mitch. Otherwise, he'd most likely have been traded. That's where the fifth year option comes in.

On 4/6/2021 at 4:41 PM, Heinz D. said:

I don't know exactly what to tell ya. Darnold got traded, and the team that traded for him picked up his fifth year option. The team that drafted Trubisky declined his fifth year option, and he went off to be a backup for a paltry $2.5 mil/year.

If that isn't a crystal clear picture of how the league views both guys...I don't know what is. 

 

No team could've trade for Mitch because he wasn't available for trade.

Just because one team traded for Darnold and another didn't for Mitch is irrelevant here because it's not an apples to apples comparison.  The differences in circumstances between each QB matters here. 

Darnold was going into his 4th season and NYJ had seen enough of him to decide they were ready to move on instead of giving him another year. Plus, they only had 1 month left (May 2nd) to decide whether to pick up his 5th year. So instead of outright releasing him they decided to test the market and try to get something in return instead.

By comparison, Mitch was going into his 4th season(2020) and the Bears were NOT ready to move on and decided to give him another year and kept him off the market. Therefore, he wasn't available for trade after 3 years like Darnold was.

If you wanna use how each QB is being viewed around the league then use the similarities between them-- which are much closer to the truth.  Neither of their originally drafted teams wanted to extend them. Neither of their originally drafted teams wanted to pick up their 5th year option. And neither of the originally drafted teams wanted anything more to do with them.

Both QBs equally suck.  Neither QB can read a defense to save their lives and both of their ceilings have collapsed to the point that the most you can expect from them is maybe an unreliable low-end starter that you are still looking to replace. 

 

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On 4/6/2021 at 6:35 PM, dll2000 said:

Generally speaking because team and coaching matters.   It matters a lot.   It matters more in football than any other sport by a wide margin and it matters more at Qb than any other position.      

But specifically as to Darnold vs. MT:

1.  He is bigger.

2,  He has stronger arm.     

3. He is 3 years younger than MT and started really young.   

4. He played in NFL with far less team talent than MT did.  

5. He played with multiple OCs.

And he has 52 turnovers in his first 3 years during an era that is MUCH easier for QBs to prevent those.  FIFTY-TWO! That's ridiculous.  I don't care what the circumstances are.  By comparison, Mitch had 41.

Edited by JAF-N72EX
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5 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

No team could've trade for Mitch because he wasn't available for trade.

Just because one team traded for Darnold and another didn't for Mitch is irrelevant here because it's not an apples to apples comparison.  The differences in circumstances between each QB matters here. 

Darnold was going into his 4th season and NYJ had seen enough of him to decide they were ready to move on instead of giving him another year. Plus, they only had 1 month left (May 2nd) to decide whether to pick up his 5th year. So instead of outright releasing him they decided to test the market and try to get something in return instead.

By comparison, Mitch was going into his 4th season(2020) and the Bears were NOT ready to move on and decided to give him another year and kept him off the market. Therefore, he wasn't available for trade after 3 years like Darnold was.

If you wanna use how each QB is being viewed around the league then use the similarities between them-- which are much closer to the truth.  Neither of their originally drafted teams wanted to extend them. Neither of their originally drafted teams wanted to pick up their 5th year option. And neither of the originally drafted teams wanted anything more to do with them.

Both QBs equally suck.  Neither QB can read a defense to save their lives and both of their ceilings have collapsed to the point that the most you can expect from them is maybe an unreliable low-end starter that you are still looking to replace. 

 

This was the point I was trying to make.  I'm not a Tru apologist.  I just think that Bears fans will cling to the idea of another QB...and QB for that matter...then Mitch, or any QB that we may have at the moment.  It has been that way for years.  Darnold has SHOWN nothing thus far.  He is nothing to get excited about or worth further draft capital on.

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1 minute ago, Bigbear72 said:

This was the point I was trying to make.  I'm not a Tru apologist.  I just think that Bears fans will cling to the idea of another QB...and QB for that matter...then Mitch, or any QB that we may have at the moment.  It has been that way for years.  Darnold has SHOWN nothing thus far.  He is nothing to get excited about or worth further draft capital on.

If we would have traded for Darnold it would have been Rick Mirer 2.0.

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On 4/6/2021 at 5:35 PM, dll2000 said:

Generally speaking because team and coaching matters.   It matters a lot.   It matters more in football than any other sport by a wide margin and it matters more at Qb than any other position.      

But specifically as to Darnold vs. MT:

1.  He is bigger.

2,  He has stronger arm.     

3. He is 3 years younger than MT and started really young.   

4. He played in NFL with far less team talent than MT did.  

5. He played with multiple OCs.

Most young QBs never recover from poor start, but due to his age and circumstance he has a good shot in Carolina under their coaches.   

He is going into his 2nd team at same age that a lot of rookie QBs come into the league.  

I would say odds are still just around 50%, but i can definitely see it happening.

I would say at least 1 team feels same way as they were willing to pay him 10x as much as what MT was offered and trade multiple picks for him.

BTW, I think it is possible for MT to resurrect his career in Buffalo and get a nice back up or even bridge starter contract if Allen goes down and he plays well.   I think talent is such in Buffalo that he can look good. 

I think the stain is such that no one will ever think highly of him though.

 

 

 

 

Darnold is about a 1/2 in taller, Darnold does not have a stronger arm.  There arms are about even with maybe an edge to MT.  The level of talent on offense this year was better than MTs rookie year here.  Darnold has had 2 OCs, MT has technically had 3.  MT was a better decision maker in college and is a better decision maker as a pro.  Darnold was a terrible decision maker in college and a terrible decision maker as a pro.  Darnold is Jay Cutler w/o the arm talent.  He has never seen a window he doesnt think he can fit it in.  The difference being Jay had a great arm and there was a 50/50 shot at a completion on those bad decisions.  Dont get me wrong MT has made some horrific decisions but people forget how often he got away with it his first 2 years bc of his arm talent.  I'll never forget his 2nd year hes pressured rolls right, could probably pick up the first with his legs but instead throws back across his body to a wide open Cohen for an 18 yard gain.  Incredible play.  At the time I commented here, first thing I would say to him when he got back to the huddle was "great play kid, dont ever do it again".  Darnold doesnt have the arm talent to cover his bad decisions.  That's why hes barely more than a 1:1 guy.  And dont get the future picks twisted, when you want to know what a QB is worth you judge it by what you can get now.  The Colts got a 2nd this year for the worst starting QB in the NFL last year.  The Jets just got a 6th for Darnold.  The total value of all 3 picks is a very low 2nd rounder.  Had the Bears shopped MT last year they would have at least gotten equal value to that, and likely more.  Josh Fn Rosen got higher value than Darnold.  Maybe the Panthers can get the best out of Darnold and he can be a bridge for them, but my guess is they regret the trade when they are looking for a QB next year and paying Sam $19M fully guaranteed for 2022.  

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2 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

The Jets just got a 6th for Darnold.  The total value of all 3 picks is a very low 2nd rounder.  

The total value of a 2021 6th, and 2022 2nd and 4th, is a very low second rounder? 

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1 hour ago, Heinz D. said:

The total value of a 2021 6th, and 2022 2nd and 4th, is a very low second rounder? 

Yes.  Future picks are valued one round lower so what you really have is a 3rd, 5th, and 6th.  265+44+17 =326.  That is equivalent to pick 57.  He was not valued highly at all.  Compare to Josh Rosen's value 284 + 44 =328.  So Kudos to the Jets for almost getting the value of Josh Rosen after one of the worst rookie seasons ever.

 

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13 minutes ago, Superman(DH23) said:

He was not valued highly at all. 

Hard to argue that point. It's said that the Panthers are the only team to have much interest in him. 

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44 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

Hard to argue that point. It's said that the Panthers are the only team to have much interest in him. 

Yeah, they should have called the Jets on their bluff.  Supposedly they offered a 4 straight up, then offered  a 3 with a return.  They eventually worked this deal out, which in negotiations future picks are virtually meaningless.  You dont know if you are gonna have a job, you don't know if the other guy is going to have a job, so to ultimately just get a 6th THIS year, is really showing you how lowly he is valued.  

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