NFL General Discussion

[DaWg_LB.]

19 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I’m not sure if there’s a man not named Jimmy Haslam that set this organization back further than Ray Farmer.

Gilbert, JFF (even giving him a pass for that mess), Erving and Shelton in the first round?  
 

JFC a blind, drunk toddler throwing darts at a board could have done better than that….

I know folks hate him....but I see his tenure a little differently. First and Foremost he was Shotgunned Married to Mike Pettine (who I thought was a year or 2 away from ready for a HC). 2014 his first draft he took the Consensus top CB in the draft (after trading down and getting an additional 1rst the following year.....the coach he was shotgunned married to, wanted to run a press man type of Defense....so the pick was a bust, but the logic behind it was solid. Manziel we all know was a Haslem pick, his hand was forced. The rest of his draft was not that bad (Bintonio in round 2, Kirksy in round 3, he's an 8 year NFL linebacker, Terrance West in round 3, he was solid before loosing his mind and carrer, and Peier Desair who is also an 8 year NFL CB). 

Year 2 was trying to save jobs.....Shelton he thought he was getting Vita Vea, Cameron Irving he was solid at LT and C at FSU.....but still probably not a 1rst round pick...the rest of that draft outside of Duke Johnson....I had to do some head scratching....

He only got 1.5 years to do his thing....that is too short for any GM....

Ray Farmer..not as bad as some would think...

[MWil23]

7 minutes ago, DaWg_LB. said:

I know folks hate him....but I see his tenure a little differently. First and Foremost he was Shotgunned Married to Mike Pettine (who I thought was a year or 2 away from ready for a HC). 2014 his first draft he took the Consensus top CB in the draft (after trading down and getting an additional 1rst the following year.....the coach he was shotgunned married to, wanted to run a press man type of Defense....so the pick was a bust, but the logic behind it was solid. Manziel we all know was a Haslem pick, his hand was forced. The rest of his draft was not that bad (Bintonio in round 2, Kirksy in round 3, he's an 8 year NFL linebacker, Terrance West in round 3, he was solid before loosing his mind and carrer, and Peier Desair who is also an 8 year NFL CB). 

Year 2 was trying to save jobs.....Shelton he thought he was getting Vita Vea, Cameron Irving he was solid at LT and C at FSU.....but still probably not a 1rst round pick...the rest of that draft outside of Duke Johnson....I had to do some head scratching....

He only got 1.5 years to do his thing....that is too short for any GM....

Ray Farmer..not as bad as some would think...

IMO, and I understand where you're coming from...

It's one thing to miss and take a guy who doesn't live up to his billing, and it's another to draft multiple 1st Rounders in a year period (let alone 2 year period) and have them completely out of the league altogether within 2 years.

There was absolutely a hierarchy issue of the GM/Owner/HC all not coexisting, but the same was true with Dorsey, DePo, Haslem, and Hue, and Dorsey was at least able to get some dudes who could play in the draft/via trade.

JMHO

[JDD]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

IMO, and I understand where you're coming from...

It's one thing to miss and take a guy who doesn't live up to his billing, and it's another to draft multiple 1st Rounders in a year period (let alone 2 year period) and have them completely out of the league altogether within 2 years.

There was absolutely a hierarchy issue of the GM/Owner/HC all not coexisting, but the same was true with Dorsey, DePo, Haslem, and Hue, and Dorsey was at least able to get some dudes who could play in the draft/via trade.

JMHO

I think its better to view all of this as all roads lead to Berry and Kevin.

But man was it a tough road to hoe

[Rod Johnson]

2 hours ago, DaWg_LB. said:

I know folks hate him....but I see his tenure a little differently. First and Foremost he was Shotgunned Married to Mike Pettine (who I thought was a year or 2 away from ready for a HC). 2014 his first draft he took the Consensus top CB in the draft (after trading down and getting an additional 1rst the following year.....the coach he was shotgunned married to, wanted to run a press man type of Defense....so the pick was a bust, but the logic behind it was solid. Manziel we all know was a Haslem pick, his hand was forced. The rest of his draft was not that bad (Bintonio in round 2, Kirksy in round 3, he's an 8 year NFL linebacker, Terrance West in round 3, he was solid before loosing his mind and carrer, and Peier Desair who is also an 8 year NFL CB). 

Year 2 was trying to save jobs.....Shelton he thought he was getting Vita Vea, Cameron Irving he was solid at LT and C at FSU.....but still probably not a 1rst round pick...the rest of that draft outside of Duke Johnson....I had to do some head scratching....

He only got 1.5 years to do his thing....that is too short for any GM....

Ray Farmer..not as bad as some would think...

I don't recall Justin Gilbert being the consensus best CB at all

[Dawgpoun8017]

9 hours ago, buno67 said:

That was his first draft and prolly really wanted to appease the HC and Owner.  Again the character issues and not doing the background work on a guy who was clearly a projected 1st Rd pick, screams like something and forced his hand.
 

If we had Donald we don’t get garrett 

You underestimate this team 

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, Dawgpoun8017 said:

You underestimate this team 

Or overestimate that team? Maybe we still get #1 even with Donald.

[JDD]

13 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Or overestimate that team? Maybe we still get #1 even with Donald.

With the way our luck was going back then, Aaron Donald would be Shelton and Shelton would be Donald. 

[DaWg_LB.]

17 hours ago, Rod Johnson said:

I don't recall Justin Gilbert being the consensus best CB at all

I respect that....I remember that draft well....and the top CB's coming out that year was one of the Fuller Brothers, Dequez Dennard from Mich St. and Gilbert were all in the running for the Top CB, as I remember Gilbert got the nod over Fuller and Dennard because Justin Gilbert was also an All American Kick Returner (I think he still holds the record for most KR for TD's in Big 12 History)....He was a Pure Bust, without question....not defending the player at all, but at the time...he looked like he was going to be a DB that would be able to affect 2/3 of the game, 1 as a locked down CB (12 career ints at Okla st.) and 2 as a top notch KR/PR.....6'0 202lbs, 4.35 40yd....Sr. who was a 3 year starter......he had all the tools on planet earth....AND you get him + an additional 1rst round pick for the next years draft....I thought it was the win win at the time and then he pulled a Mike Mamula\Vernon Gholston\Ryan Leaf\Jamarcus Russle\Charlie Rogers (ALL these were TOP NOTCH college prospects....who no one blamed the team at the time of taking them....)

[Rod Johnson]

10 minutes ago, DaWg_LB. said:

I respect that....I remember that draft well....and the top CB's coming out that year was one of the Fuller Brothers, Dequez Dennard from Mich St. and Gilbert were all in the running for the Top CB, as I remember Gilbert got the nod over Fuller and Dennard because Justin Gilbert was also an All American Kick Returner (I think he still holds the record for most KR for TD's in Big 12 History)....He was a Pure Bust, without question....not defending the player at all, but at the time...he looked like he was going to be a DB that would be able to affect 2/3 of the game, 1 as a locked down CB (12 career ints at Okla st.) and 2 as a top notch KR/PR.....6'0 202lbs, 4.35 40yd....Sr. who was a 3 year starter......he had all the tools on planet earth....AND you get him + an additional 1rst round pick for the next years draft....I thought it was the win win at the time and then he pulled a Mike Mamula\Vernon Gholston\Ryan Leaf\Jamarcus Russle\Charlie Rogers (ALL these were TOP NOTCH college prospects....who no one blamed the team at the time of taking them....)

I remember people in NFL general calling him out to be a bust before and after the draft.  It was unfortunate that pretty much every knock he had against him as a prospect ended up being true (soft, immature, only 1 year of college success), but it was still a bad pick.

I don't equate it to say, the Trent Richardson pick, where everybody thought he'd at least be good at all.  Some people saw him sucking coming.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Rod Johnson

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

36 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said:

I remember people in NFL general calling him out to be a bust before and after the draft.  It was unfortunate that pretty much every knock he had against him as a prospect ended up being true (soft, immature, only 1 year of college success), but it was still a bad pick.

The issue with him was the same as with JFF, immaturity.  Physically they had the tools, they had game tape to match their physical abilities, etc., but they simply didn’t take the necessary steps to play at the nfl level.

This type of stuff is easy for fans to miss as we don’t get candid interviews with coaches and the players themselves, but it’s hard to excuse missing this same issue repeatedly. 

[ReggieCamp]

6 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

The issue with him was the same as with JFF, immaturity.  Physically they had the tools, they had game tape to match their physical abilities, etc., but they simply didn’t take the necessary steps to play at the nfl level.

This type of stuff is easy for fans to miss as we don’t get candid interviews with coaches and the players themselves, but it’s hard to excuse missing this same issue repeatedly. 

We at least met with Manziel. I thought I had read that we didn't even meet with Gilbert. Yikes.

Back to where this started. Ray Farmer seems like a fine man that rose through the NFL ranks (with merit) and his career got promptly dunked by going to the Browns. Yes, many of our past failures are on the individuals themselves (Farmer may be one of them), but we tanked our share of promising careers.

It seems like every week I'd see one of our former head coaches still being successful NFL coaches (albeit, as coordinators). Maybe Farmer was a great scout who couldn't manage being the big dog. I don't know.

[Thomas5737]

16 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

The issue with him was the same as with JFF, immaturity.  Physically they had the tools, they had game tape to match their physical abilities, etc., but they simply didn’t take the necessary steps to play at the nfl level.

This type of stuff is easy for fans to miss as we don’t get candid interviews with coaches and the players themselves, but it’s hard to excuse missing this same issue repeatedly. 

Gilbert averaged one pick 6 for every 3 starts in the NFL. That's probably a record.

Along with that he also wasted the Steelers time for a year so that gets him bonus points.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 minutes ago, ReggieCamp said:

We at least met with Manziel. I thought I had read that we didn't even meet with Gilbert. Yikes.

And that’s one of those situation that is absolutely inexcusable tbh.  It’s like they were more concerned with protecting their bluff than they were actually doing the necessary work.

2 minutes ago, ReggieCamp said:

Back to where this started. Ray Farmer seems like a fine man that rose through the NFL ranks (with merit) and his career got promptly dunked by going to the Browns. Yes, many of our past failures are on the individuals themselves (Farmer may be one of them), but we tanked our share of promising careers.

It seems like every week I'd see one of our former head coaches still being successful NFL coaches (albeit, as coordinators). Maybe Farmer was a great scout who couldn't manage being the big dog. I don't know.

Yeah he may have been doomed from the start, or may have Peter principled, but he was really bad here. Like, cringeworthy bad.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, Thomas5737 said:

Gilbert averaged one pick 6 for every 3 starts in the NFL. That's probably a record.

Along with that he also wasted the Steelers time for a year so that gets him bonus points.

Unfortunately it didn’t cost them a first rounder for the opportunity.

[DaWg_LB.]

2 hours ago, Rod Johnson said:

I remember people in NFL general calling him out to be a bust before and after the draft.  It was unfortunate that pretty much every knock he had against him as a prospect ended up being true (soft, immature, only 1 year of college success), but it was still a bad pick.

I don't equate it to say, the Trent Richardson pick, where everybody thought he'd at least be good at all.  Some people saw him sucking coming.

I respect your opinion....I just have a different one.....potential Immaturity was the ONLY knock I heard about him.....and those saying he had one year of production (5 INT's as a Soph and 7 as a Sr...as well as becoming the Big 12's all time KR leader) whoever said that, did not watch him at Okla st. nor did they Look up his college stats.....IJS. Maybe you didnt like him as a prospect and as humans we tend to pay more attention to the voices that are singing the same tune as we are.........but I know several of the Big Prognosticators liked him.

https://www.nfl.com/news/mike-mayock-s-position-rankings-for-2014-nfl-draft-0ap2000000326222

So at the time, I dont think it was a bad pick at all. Now a year after that pick, we all saw it was a bad pick....

And with the Trent Richardson Pick, I remember most folks thinking he was gonna be good at something, but there were a couple of analyst who did not and I remember the BIGGEST knock on him for me came from our own Jim Brown, when Jim Brown said "I dont see anything special about the kid" and we all thought Jim had finally lost it....seems like Time has proven him wise.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree on just where Justin Gilbert ranked as a prospect at that time.....but were still cool. 🙂🙂

And I cant believe we are both spending time talking about Justin Gilbert LOL