Who From 2016 Is Missed The Most?

[mcmurtry86]

2 hours ago, NFL Network said:

I'd just bite the bullet and live with a Jacob Hollister or even keep Matt Lengel b/c they are both no worse than Dwayne Allen and way cheaper.

Well Hollister is already on the team and can't block.

Lengel sucks and was hurt in camp anyway. That he's not even on any team's practice squad should tell you something.

If Gronk goes down for the year, I'd trust Allen a lot more than Matt Lengel to actually contribute something. Yeah, Allen hasn't shown much so far but he still is a useful blocker (even if he struggled in pass protection Thursday) and has an NFL track record of being a decent receiver.

Coming into this year he was a high end blocker with solid, of inconsistent, receiving abilities. That's a solid #2 TE in the NFL. Saying you'd prefer a practice squad caliber guy like Lengel or an unknown undrafted player to be handed the backup to the most fragile player on the team is not just silly but entirely hindsight based reasoning. 

I'm in no way saying Allen has been a great pickup but at the time the move was made, he was a solid #2 who has the skills to be a low end #1. Matt Lengel has the skills to maybe be an emergency practice squad call up or fringe #3.

[NFL Network]

2 hours ago, mcmurtry86 said:

Well Hollister is already on the team and can't block.

Lengel sucks and was hurt in camp anyway. That he's not even on any team's practice squad should tell you something.

If Gronk goes down for the year, I'd trust Allen a lot more than Matt Lengel to actually contribute something. Yeah, Allen hasn't shown much so far but he still is a useful blocker (even if he struggled in pass protection Thursday) and has an NFL track record of being a decent receiver.

Coming into this year he was a high end blocker with solid, of inconsistent, receiving abilities. That's a solid #2 TE in the NFL. Saying you'd prefer a practice squad caliber guy like Lengel or an unknown undrafted player to be handed the backup to the most fragile player on the team is not just silly but entirely hindsight based reasoning. 

I'm in no way saying Allen has been a great pickup but at the time the move was made, he was a solid #2 who has the skills to be a low end #1. Matt Lengel has the skills to maybe be an emergency practice squad call up or fringe #3.

What about Gary Barnidge from the Browns as he had a couple of good years and was released after they drafted a TE in the first round. Not sure if anyone signed him but he could've of received some interest. 

[mcmurtry86]

23 minutes ago, NFL Network said:

What about Gary Barnidge from the Browns as he had a couple of good years and was released after they drafted a TE in the first round. Not sure if anyone signed him but he could've of received some interest. 

Well, he was still with the Browns at the time the Pats wanted to address the position. On top of that, he's still unemployed despite having workouts for a few teams. I can't imagine he has much to offer at this point

[LD696]

1 hour ago, mcmurtry86 said:

Well, he was still with the Browns at the time the Pats wanted to address the position. On top of that, he's still unemployed despite having workouts for a few teams. I can't imagine he has much to offer at this point

I remember some Cleaveland fans claiming he became locker room cancer since he had been paid. Wasn't sure if it that was true, but the fact that he hasn't been signed yet despite his decent production in later years makes the story more believable.

[mission27]

Ninkovich.  You can say he was a below average player by the end of his career, which is true, but he was also a veteran presence on the defense.  This team is missing Nink and Edelman, who I believe were the longest tenured guys on both sides of the ball other than Brady and went to 3 Super Bowls, so it shouldn't be surprising that both units are in a bit of a transition right now and trying to sort things out.  Those two were also major factors in stopping and converting 3rd/4th downs, respectively, which has been a big problem. 

Tbh I have a hard time believing plugging any of the other guys in would make this team that much better than they have been because I don't think the issue is a lack of talent on either side of the ball.  The secondary has been a huge issue but Logan Ryan isn't that good.  He's certainly not better than Gilmore.  Blount is not better than Gileslle.  The pass rush has exceeded expectations as others have said. 

 

 

[mcmurtry86]

13 hours ago, mission27 said:

Ninkovich.  You can say he was a below average player by the end of his career, which is true, but he was also a veteran presence on the defense.  This team is missing Nink and Edelman, who I believe were the longest tenured guys on both sides of the ball other than Brady and went to 3 Super Bowls, so it shouldn't be surprising that both units are in a bit of a transition right now and trying to sort things out.  Those two were also major factors in stopping and converting 3rd/4th downs, respectively, which has been a big problem. 

Tbh I have a hard time believing plugging any of the other guys in would make this team that much better than they have been because I don't think the issue is a lack of talent on either side of the ball.  The secondary has been a huge issue but Logan Ryan isn't that good.  He's certainly not better than Gilmore.  Blount is not better than Gileslle.  The pass rush has exceeded expectations as others have said. 

 

 

The thing about Ninkovich is that the team would be, from a talent perspective, worse with him on the field than with their current edge guys. So he'd have to bring a lot to the locker room or sideline to be worth keeping around.

 

[mission27]

15 minutes ago, mcmurtry86 said:

The thing about Ninkovich is that the team would be, from a talent perspective, worse with him on the field than with their current edge guys. So he'd have to bring a lot to the locker room or sideline to be worth keeping around.

 

Agreed.  But tbf, is there any part of this team that is worse from a talent perspective than the SB51 team?  

[mission27]

Not to beat a dead horse but if you look at the 2016 Super Bowl lineup vs. the team they've been running out so far this year: 

Bennet was replaced with Gronk 

Ryan was replaced with Gilmore 

Blount was replaced with Gileslie (+ Burkhead at times) 

Edelman and Mitchell were replaced with Cooks and Dorsett 

Long and Nink were replaced by some combination of Wise, Guy, etc. 

Talent wise, I'd say those are all upgrades and in some cases massive upgrades.  And obviously the team got younger across the board.  The issue is clearly fit and getting these guys to gel.  Which is why I don't think there's really much reason to be concerned.  Give Bill enough talent and he will figure it out.  But I think having a veteran presence on key third downs could make a difference in a lot of big spots where they've struggled this year.  

[mcmurtry86]

37 minutes ago, mission27 said:

Agreed.  But tbf, is there any part of this team that is worse from a talent perspective than the SB51 team?  

Interior DT is significantly worse.

[mcmurtry86]

31 minutes ago, mission27 said:

Not to beat a dead horse but if you look at the 2016 Super Bowl lineup vs. the team they've been running out so far this year: 

Bennet was replaced with Gronk 

Ryan was replaced with Gilmore 

Blount was replaced with Gileslie (+ Burkhead at times) 

Edelman and Mitchell were replaced with Cooks and Dorsett 

Long and Nink were replaced by some combination of Wise, Guy, etc. 

Talent wise, I'd say those are all upgrades and in some cases massive upgrades.  And obviously the team got younger across the board.  The issue is clearly fit and getting these guys to gel.  Which is why I don't think there's really much reason to be concerned.  Give Bill enough talent and he will figure it out.  But I think having a veteran presence on key third downs could make a difference in a lot of big spots where they've struggled this year.  

Long/Ninkovich/Sheard to Wise/Guy is lateral at best since Wise is a pass rush only guy and Guy is better on the interior.

Edelman/Mitchell to Cooks/Dorsett is a big downgrade, simply because Dorsett is pretty much a spare part. Edelman is more valuable than Cooks, as much as I like Cooks.

The RB spot was really the only big upgrade. Gilmore is a big talent upgrade on Ryan but sheer talent doesn't always equal a good fit or an automatic upgrade

[mission27]

11 minutes ago, mcmurtry86 said:

Long/Ninkovich/Sheard to Wise/Guy is lateral at best since Wise is a pass rush only guy and Guy is better on the interior.

Edelman/Mitchell to Cooks/Dorsett is a big downgrade, simply because Dorsett is pretty much a spare part. Edelman is more valuable than Cooks, as much as I like Cooks.

The RB spot was really the only big upgrade. Gilmore is a big talent upgrade on Ryan but sheer talent doesn't always equal a good fit or an automatic upgrade

Not sure I agree on Edelman/Mitchel and Cooks/Dorsett.  At least purely from a talent perspective.  Edelman is great, but not nearly as talented as Cooks.  Cooks is one of the 10 most talented receivers in the NFL and extremely versatile.  Edelman's short yardage role is hard to replace, but they will be able to piece it together with Dola, the backs, and the tight ends.  Cook adds a dimension this offense hasn't had in like 10 years.  Dorsett is a role player right now but so was Mitchell at this point last season and so are most receivers this early in their Pats career.  Give him some time to get adjusted to the offense and we'll see what he can do.  

[mcmurtry86]

46 minutes ago, mission27 said:

Not sure I agree on Edelman/Mitchel and Cooks/Dorsett.  At least purely from a talent perspective.  Edelman is great, but not nearly as talented as Cooks.  Cooks is one of the 10 most talented receivers in the NFL and extremely versatile.  Edelman's short yardage role is hard to replace, but they will be able to piece it together with Dola, the backs, and the tight ends.  Cook adds a dimension this offense hasn't had in like 10 years.  Dorsett is a role player right now but so was Mitchell at this point last season and so are most receivers this early in their Pats career.  Give him some time to get adjusted to the offense and we'll see what he can do.  

You're contradicting yourself a bit here. You say that the Pats have added Gronk to replace Bennett - only true if you consider the end of year roster. But in terms of WR, you are using early season Mitchell to compare him to spare part Dorsett. Don't think that really works.

Mitchell, based on his stretch run/playoffs is a much better Patriots WR than Dorsett. Edelman is as good or better for the Pats offense than Cooks. Is Cooks more physically talented? Sure. But in terms of what the Pats do on offense, what's so key to them winning big games, I'd take Edelman 10 out of 10 times over Cooks if we were talking a straight up trade.

The big issue with the offense now, if there is one (and their offensive output makes it hard to complain too much), is their OL getting Brady killed. And a lot of that is the move from Edelman's quick separation to Cooks' deep routes. I think it's unsustainable TBH. Yeah, they added a dimension. It's also the dimension which plays away from the offense's strengths (Brady's GOAT short passing and reading of defenses) and plays right into their weaknesses (mediocre pass protectors, Brady's lack of mobility and non-elite deep ball)

If this were a Madden team, I'd take Cooks over Edelman all day every day. I can't see any cogent argument where Cooks is a better/more valuable WR for the Pats than Edelman.

[Soko]

Butler and Branch, 2016 versions. Having one or both of those two would change the defense drastically. Edelman would help a lot too, but I’m inclined to take a defensive player over an offensive one.

Actual players wise, the right answer is probably Ryan but I also miss Chris Long.

[Hunter2_1]

It's Branch. When you have a 350lb 6'6" guy gapping the line, it means you can do a lot more behind him than when you're having a 300lber in Guy or Brown. We just miss that gap filling. 

[bluemushrooms]

On 10/7/2017 at 11:01 PM, mcmurtry86 said:

Well Hollister is already on the team and can't block.

Lengel sucks and was hurt in camp anyway. That he's not even on any team's practice squad should tell you something.

If Gronk goes down for the year, I'd trust Allen a lot more than Matt Lengel to actually contribute something. Yeah, Allen hasn't shown much so far but he still is a useful blocker (even if he struggled in pass protection Thursday) and has an NFL track record of being a decent receiver.

Coming into this year he was a high end blocker with solid, of inconsistent, receiving abilities. That's a solid #2 TE in the NFL. Saying you'd prefer a practice squad caliber guy like Lengel or an unknown undrafted player to be handed the backup to the most fragile player on the team is not just silly but entirely hindsight based reasoning. 

I'm in no way saying Allen has been a great pickup but at the time the move was made, he was a solid #2 who has the skills to be a low end #1. Matt Lengel has the skills to maybe be an emergency practice squad call up or fringe #3.

Allen's blocking has been good. 

 

He just can't seem to pick up the route running playbook for whatever reason.  He's only going to get better as the season goes and he has time to practice/learn the playbook; worst case he picks up at least 1 freaking route and picks up some more complex running schemes.  As long as he doesn't lose confidence and drop his blocking skills, he'll be an overpaid but good blocker so, it could be worse.