The Good, the Bad, the VICTORY vs. Panthers (Post-game talk)

[jimkelly02]

3 hours ago, NYRaider said:

FWIW PFF grades for some of our guys yesterday. 

Defensive Line

Clelin Ferrell - 73.8 (#18 Edge)

Arden Key - 72.0 (#21 Edge)

Jonathan Hankins - 71.7 (Tied #16 DT)

Mo Hurst - 71.7 (Tied #16 DT) 

Maliek Collins - 55.1 (#54 DT) 

Carl Nassib - 47.4 (#81 Edge)

Maxx Crosby - 44.0 (#86 Edge) 

Linebackers

Nick Kwiatkoski - 69.5 (#10 LB)

Cory Littleton - 53.1 (#32 LB)

Nicholas Morrow - 44.8 (#46 LB)

Defensive Backs

LaMarcus Joyner - 62.4 (#33 CB)

Trayvon Mullen - 58.0 (#45 CB)

Jonathan Abram - 56.7 (#46 S)

Damon Arnette - 52.6 (#58 CB)

Erik Harris - 37.3 (#65 S)

“Collins is the heart and soul of the defense” - @NYRaider  lol (just friendly ball busting)

seriously tho thanks for interesting info

Edited September 14, 2020 by jimkelly02

[NYRaider]

31 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

“Collins is the heart and soul of the defense” - @NYRaider  lol (just friendly ball busting)

seriously tho thanks for interesting info

It's been one week and our pass rush struggled as Collins didn't really generate a ton of pressure inside. Even when we got pressure off the edge Teddy did what? Stepped into the pocket and made plays with his legs. If Collins was generating pressure he wouldn't have had anywhere to go so I think you can say that he is still a huge key to the defense. I'm also not one to jump to major conclusions after 1 week when there was no OTA, limited training camp practices, and no preseason. 

 

Quote

And the 6-foot-2, 303-pound Collins also has to carry some heavy expectations from the coaching staff. Coach Jon Gruden has said that the former Cowboy is “the key to the defense” and defensive coordinator Paul Guenther has compared Collins to Bengals All-Pro defensive tackle Geno Atkins. 

Quote

 

Well, Collins did finish the 2019 season with an NFL-best 31 pass-rush wins against double teams, per ESPN. 

Marinelli doesn’t disagree with Gruden’s assertion that the defense will go as Collins goes. 

“Understanding that under-tackle position carries a lot of weight,” Marinelli said Thursday. “The impact sometimes, you can get doubled a lot. You can get chipped a lot with a double. That creates, maybe, other opportunities for players. So it’s not about numbers, it’s about how you impact the game and the hustle, the effort and all those things. That’s a centerpiece.”

 

 

 

[Turnobili]

4 hours ago, RaidersAreOne said:

 

nice cutups. those 3rd and 4th plays were particularly good

[Turnobili]

also i thought it was pretty clear Gurden is just screwing around with the "being upset about Cindy Gruden" stuff. do people really think he's legitimately pissed?

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

It's been one week and our pass rush struggled as Collins didn't really generate a ton of pressure inside. Even when we got pressure off the edge Teddy did what? Stepped into the pocket and made plays with his legs. If Collins was generating pressure he wouldn't have had anywhere to go so I think you can say that he is still a huge key to the defense. I'm also not one to jump to major conclusions after 1 week when there was no OTA, limited training camp practices, and no preseason. 

1.  If Collins maintained GAP Discipline it’d have made it harder for TB to take off running up the middle.... but Collins, as he always does, drifts outside (which is counter productive for shooting the A-gap) and leaves a running lane the size of the grand cannon.

2.  We all know what Gruden said but thanks for including that.  The reality is Gruden tells white lies, as all coaches do.  He was trying to pump up one of his players.  Also, the reporters ask certain questions to get a quote so they can write the story they already planned to write.  If I wanted to write a story about Hankins I’d ask Coaches fluffy questions like “Hankins made a great play at the end of the game to get the stop on 4th down. Can you tell us what Hankins brings to the team?”  And then Gruden would ramble on about how Hankins has been a wrecking ball throughout Training Camp and brings veteran leadership, blah blah blah.  I get my quote to center my article around.  But the article was going To be written prior to the press conference.... the reporter just needed a Quote to validate their story.  And DT was a position with a serious question mark and most fans knew it, so reporters did very well writing articles about how great Collins had been.  Obviously articles saying Collins was a rising star will do way way better than just saying he’s a rather good pass rusher (if he stays in his lane lol) but is below average against the run.  Everyone knows that already, IT isn’t a story.  If you want to believe every quote from a coach in TC then I have a bridge in your home state that you absolutely will be interested in buying!

if you want to selectively believe things coaches say (and also dismiss other things they say) to suit what you want to think that’s fine.  But the reality is Gruden was simply trying to pump up a player.... who needs to play better.  Idk how a DT can start and play 700-800 snaps and only average 20 tackles a year.... that’s crazy.  He will shoot a gap and tackle the RB instantly for a loss 2x a year but the rest of the time he’s mostly not a force in the run game at all.

i think that 4th down play sums up what the team knows about Collins.  Hankins saw something pre-snap and told Collins to swap with him because he knew Collins couldn’t take on a double team and would have been blown back.  Collins is a poor Goal line/short distance run defender.  That’s one very important play that could have changed the games outcome.... and why I was pounding the table for a 2nd run stuffing DT.  We’re always in close games and will hopefully be winning and rely on the defense to close out games.  There will almost certainly be many more situations Ike that.  And we’d be much better off with Collins subbing out for a run stuffing DT.  Cuz if Hankins didn’t swap spots we’d have given up the first down and likely have lost the game.

 

added later:  not to mention 3Tech IS ACTUALLY the cornerstone of a Marinelli defense and to a lesser extent Guenther’s.  So creating the idea that Collins is a capable corner stone player in our defense makes for an interesting story.

Most of what the coaches said is actually true... 3Tech is a very important position for our defense, But that doesn’t mean Collins is this monster 3T. The “we go as far as Collins takes us” is more accurately stated as “3T is a vital position for this defense and the success of it will rely on Collins being able to get pressure and stuff the run”. He’s clearly a liability vs the run so yes if he doesn’t play better we’re in trouble.  His pass rush should eventually be good enough to boost the teams pass rush.

Edited September 14, 2020 by jimkelly02

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

not to mention 3Tech IS ACTUALLY the cornerstone of a Marinelli defense and to a lesser extent Guenther’s.  So creating the idea that Collins is a capable corner stone player in our defense makes for an interesting story.

Collins had the most pass rush wins (31) against double teams, the 4th highest win rate (16%) as a pass rusher for DT's, the 11th most pressures (48) for defensive linemen, and the 16th most sacks for DT's (4) last season in Dallas. That's why I think they had such high expectations for him coming into the season and I don't think it's fair to write him off after one game when our entire defensive line struggled as a whole. Crosby had the lowest grade of any of our defensive players yesterday according to PFF, should we write him off too? 

We've lacked a consistent interior pass rush for a while and that's what we're hoping Collins can bring. If he can it will open up a lot of looks for the rest of our defensive line. Plus he's only 25, reportedly in the best shape of his life, and in a contract year where he's hoping to get a nice long deal after the season. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by NYRaider

[BigPerro]

On 9/13/2020 at 4:51 PM, TLO said:

Disagree on being ultra conservative in the second half. Had 4 real drives and scored 17 points. The punt drive was certainly conservative, but they seemed to be going all in on feeding Jacobs all game. 
 

Good: the offense

bad: the defense 

ugly: Trent brown is a waste of money. Maybe if he controlled his weight, he wouldn’t be perpetually injured. I’m not impressed. 

Trent Brown is a Bum, dude got paid and checked out 

[dante9876]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

Collins had the most pass rush wins (31) against double teams, the 4th highest win rate (16%) as a pass rusher for DT's, the 11th most pressures (48) for defensive linemen, and the 16th most sacks for DT's (4) last season in Dallas. That's why I think they had such high expectations for him coming into the season and I don't think it's fair to write him off after one game when our entire defensive line struggled as a whole. Crosby had the lowest grade of any of our defensive players yesterday according to PFF, should we write him off too? 

We've lacked a consistent interior pass rush for a while and that's what we're hoping Collins can bring. If he can it will open up a lot of looks for the rest of our defensive line. Plus he's only 25, reportedly in the best shape of his life, and in a contract year where he's hoping to get a nice long deal after the season. 

I think we certainly overrate Crosby. I think he is a secondary pass rusher of a tandem. Not your number 1 guy. His sack to hurries ratio wasnt really sustainable and he didn't have that many hurries. He just had a great success rate especially vs Bengals. I dont think ferrell crosby and Collins is enough for a good pass rush, especially with very little blitzing and disguise. 

[roi34]

4 hours ago, agarcia34 said:

Lol stop it 

 

completely tongue and cheek

[NYRaider]

13 minutes ago, dante9876 said:

I think we certainly overrate Crosby. I think he is a secondary pass rusher of a tandem. Not your number 1 guy. His sack to hurries ratio wasnt really sustainable and he didn't have that many hurries. He just had a great success rate especially vs Bengals. I dont think ferrell crosby and Collins is enough for a good pass rush, especially with very little blitzing and disguise. 

We'll have to wait and see but it's extremely premature to start jumping to conclusions based on one week in a very weird season. 

[dante9876]

21 hours ago, NYRaider said:

We'll have to wait and see but it's extremely premature to start jumping to conclusions based on one week in a very weird season. 

Everybody is dealing with the same stuff. A jack del rio defense had 8 sacks yesterday, their offseason was much more strange than ours. Talent matters. Collins may turn to be decent. But he wasnt some sort out FA by a bunch of teams. This team wants to win one on one all the time and not create pressure with design. But dont want to bring any expensive great talent. Just role guys to try to make a whole piece. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by dante9876

[RaidersAreOne]

 

[doctordeath]

THE BAD: ABRAM'S SLEEVES.

They're wayyyyyy too long--just not aesthetically pleasing to me. I know he said they help with his shoulder and range of motion, but why not just do it loose and short, kinda like how Nuke has his?

 

[reddevil]

6 hours ago, dante9876 said:

Everybody is dealing with the same stuff. A jack del rio defense had 8 sacks yesterday their offseason be much more strange than ours. Talent matters. Collins may turn to be decent. But he wasnt some sort out FA by a bunch of teams. This team wants to win one on one all the time and not create pressure with design. But dont want to bring any expensive great talent. Just role guys to try to make a whole piece. 

This is a great point. Even if the coaches feel that our dline is improving and the individuals can develop in time, they aren’t there yet. So - help them out! Don’t leave it to one on ones all the time. Make it easier for them by making the oline and OC have to think. 

Littleton showed some speed to get around the tackle. I’d like to see Abram and the CBS given a shot to get after the qb at times. It just always looks so pedestrian and lacking in any kind of creativity.

[jimkelly02]

Sadly we rarely do anything other than try to win 1v1.... where are these trademark double a-gap blitzes? We should at least do more Tackle-End stunts (I like the one where the End hits the opposite A-gap trying to catch the C slipping)

blitzIng Joyner out of the slot would require the S’s to likely hold up in coverage.... given the odds of Joyner getting there to the chances it’s a big catch I’d not do that.  
but we could blitz Littleton more... he’s actually a rather good blitzer.  I also like McMillian on delayed blitzes up the middle.  He’s got good 4.6 speed and can slam his way thru.