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2020 Baker thread

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7 hours ago, candyman93 said:

He’s a Alex Smith type of QB.

so far throws too many picks to be an Alex Smith.

7 hours ago, buno67 said:

For the love of god how the F are you using scheme and play calling against him? Last year was a let down cause Of those things and now he can’t be good or showing improvement cause of those things. 
 

Scheme and play calling are accounting for him having the 3rd fewest pass attempts in the league. But with that, he's got the 5th worst completion % and in the bottom 10 in INT rate.

He had the same scheme year's one and two and the same play caller for most of year's one and two. That's not the culprit.

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33 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

He had the same scheme year's one and two and the same play caller for most of year's one and two. That's not the culprit.

you have no idea do you?

He did not have the same scheme in year 1 and year 2. Year 1, he had the Haley scheme. Year 2, Freddie installed the Arians scheme. Freddie did not call games in '19 like he did in '18. Freddie used a lot more 3WR/4WRs set in '19 than he did in '18. We also saw freddie use a lot more tempo/quick game in '18 and rarely saw that in '19

Bob Wylie said "Al Saunders designed the red zone, and quarterbacks Ken Zampese handled the base passing game and third down. Zampese was also responsible for the day-to-day coaching of Baker Mayfield" From '18 to '19. In '18 Browns were scoring in the redzone 66% which was 6th for the entire season, it was actually better than that after Hue and Haley was fired but I cant get the stats of that for the last half of that season. In '19, browns were scoring 58%, which was good for 14th. So that should show you how the play caling drastically changed from moving on from Zamp and Saunders. Hell, this year they are up to 74%, which is 5th best. Having a legit coach like AVP helping you in that area instead of Ryan Freaking Lindley is a huge upgrade. Thats just an example, how freddie changed things up. Also go back to '18 and watching how many 5 to 7 step drops baker was doing and compare it to '19. Freddie was all about going for the big shot and was praying the OL would hold up, which is a staple of the Arians offensive attack. 

48 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

Scheme and play calling are accounting for him having the 3rd fewest pass attempts in the league

I could care less about passing attempts, its useless when the browns actually have a running game to lean on. Something Freddie never utilized last year. Baker/Browns might be 29th in the league in passing attempts but they are 10th overall in passing TDs. 

Yeah the Browns are running the ball up and down the field but they are not afraid to pass it in the redzone. 

Inside the 20 baker is 11/18 for 8TDs and 0INTs ('19 32/77 16TDs/4INTs --- '18 35/54 20TDs/0INTs)

Inside the 10 Baker is 8/14 or 7TDs and 0INTs ('19 15/39 13TDs/3INTs '18 15/25 10TDs/0s)

So obviously their is something that doesnt belong, its that '19 season, I wonder why???

Also passing attempts isnt an indicator of anything. You know Seattle and Russell Wilson have never finished higher than 16th in the league for passing attempts. Also that Baker helps the offense establish leads where the Browns are not forced to be throwing the ball all that much in the 2nd half 

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In his first 3 seasons Baker has had Hue, Haley, Zampese, Kitchens, Monken, AVP, and Stefanski all pissing in his ear about how technique, reads, etc, let alone scheme differences.  There’s been zero continuity or consistency.

I get it, Baker is in year 3 and he should be playing at an MVP level in some people’s minds, but that’s an unreasonable expectation.

Stefanski has simplified things and is building Baker back up from the ground.  Good.  Great in fact.  Let him get the basics down and build as he develops.  Does this suck as far as utilizing the window of his rookie deal?  Yep.  But that’s the price the organization pays for incompetence.

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3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

In his first 3 seasons Baker has had Hue, Haley, Zampese, Kitchens, Monken, AVP, and Stefanski all pissing in his ear about how technique, reads, etc, let alone scheme differences.  There’s been zero continuity or consistency.

I get it, Baker is in year 3 and he should be playing at an MVP level in some people’s minds, but that’s an unreasonable expectation.

Stefanski has simplified things and is building Baker back up from the ground.  Good.  Great in fact.  Let him get the basics down and build as he develops.  Does this suck as far as utilizing the window of his rookie deal?  Yep.  But that’s the price the organization pays for incompetence.

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11 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

 

He had the same scheme year's one and two and the same play caller for most of year's one and two. That's not the culprit.

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10 hours ago, buno67 said:

you have no idea do you?

He did not have the same scheme in year 1 and year 2. Year 1, he had the Haley scheme. Year 2, Freddie installed the Arians scheme. Freddie did not call games in '19 like he did in '18. Freddie used a lot more 3WR/4WRs set in '19 than he did in '18. We also saw freddie use a lot more tempo/quick game in '18 and rarely saw that in '19

Bob Wylie said "Al Saunders designed the red zone, and quarterbacks Ken Zampese handled the base passing game and third down. Zampese was also responsible for the day-to-day coaching of Baker Mayfield" From '18 to '19. In '18 Browns were scoring in the redzone 66% which was 6th for the entire season, it was actually better than that after Hue and Haley was fired but I cant get the stats of that for the last half of that season. In '19, browns were scoring 58%, which was good for 14th. So that should show you how the play caling drastically changed from moving on from Zamp and Saunders. Hell, this year they are up to 74%, which is 5th best. Having a legit coach like AVP helping you in that area instead of Ryan Freaking Lindley is a huge upgrade. Thats just an example, how freddie changed things up. Also go back to '18 and watching how many 5 to 7 step drops baker was doing and compare it to '19. Freddie was all about going for the big shot and was praying the OL would hold up, which is a staple of the Arians offensive attack. 

I could care less about passing attempts, its useless when the browns actually have a running game to lean on. Something Freddie never utilized last year. Baker/Browns might be 29th in the league in passing attempts but they are 10th overall in passing TDs. 

Yeah the Browns are running the ball up and down the field but they are not afraid to pass it in the redzone. 

Inside the 20 baker is 11/18 for 8TDs and 0INTs ('19 32/77 16TDs/4INTs --- '18 35/54 20TDs/0INTs)

Inside the 10 Baker is 8/14 or 7TDs and 0INTs ('19 15/39 13TDs/3INTs '18 15/25 10TDs/0s)

So obviously their is something that doesnt belong, its that '19 season, I wonder why???

Also passing attempts isnt an indicator of anything. You know Seattle and Russell Wilson have never finished higher than 16th in the league for passing attempts. Also that Baker helps the offense establish leads where the Browns are not forced to be throwing the ball all that much in the 2nd half 

Get him bones!

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I absolutely agree that coaching has hurt him. His arm strength will always give him a chance to “break through.” 
 

However, I think long term this franchise needs to build the defense and commit to running the ball.

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1 hour ago, candyman93 said:

I absolutely agree that coaching has hurt him. His arm strength will always give him a chance to “break through.” 
 

However, I think long term this franchise needs to build the defense and commit to running the ball.

Well the offense should return every starter next year. So they should be able to invest their top FA targets on defense and their top draft pick to defense

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21 hours ago, buno67 said:

you have no idea do you?

He did not have the same scheme in year 1 and year 2. Year 1, he had the Haley scheme. Year 2, Freddie installed the Arians scheme. Freddie did not call games in '19 like he did in '18. Freddie used a lot more 3WR/4WRs set in '19 than he did in '18. We also saw freddie use a lot more tempo/quick game in '18 and rarely saw that in '19

Bob Wylie said "Al Saunders designed the red zone, and quarterbacks Ken Zampese handled the base passing game and third down. Zampese was also responsible for the day-to-day coaching of Baker Mayfield" From '18 to '19. In '18 Browns were scoring in the redzone 66% which was 6th for the entire season, it was actually better than that after Hue and Haley was fired but I cant get the stats of that for the last half of that season. In '19, browns were scoring 58%, which was good for 14th. So that should show you how the play caling drastically changed from moving on from Zamp and Saunders. Hell, this year they are up to 74%, which is 5th best. Having a legit coach like AVP helping you in that area instead of Ryan Freaking Lindley is a huge upgrade. Thats just an example, how freddie changed things up. Also go back to '18 and watching how many 5 to 7 step drops baker was doing and compare it to '19. Freddie was all about going for the big shot and was praying the OL would hold up, which is a staple of the Arians offensive attack. 

I could care less about passing attempts, its useless when the browns actually have a running game to lean on. Something Freddie never utilized last year. Baker/Browns might be 29th in the league in passing attempts but they are 10th overall in passing TDs. 

Yeah the Browns are running the ball up and down the field but they are not afraid to pass it in the redzone. 

Inside the 20 baker is 11/18 for 8TDs and 0INTs ('19 32/77 16TDs/4INTs --- '18 35/54 20TDs/0INTs)

Inside the 10 Baker is 8/14 or 7TDs and 0INTs ('19 15/39 13TDs/3INTs '18 15/25 10TDs/0s)

So obviously their is something that doesnt belong, its that '19 season, I wonder why???

Also passing attempts isnt an indicator of anything. You know Seattle and Russell Wilson have never finished higher than 16th in the league for passing attempts. Also that Baker helps the offense establish leads where the Browns are not forced to be throwing the ball all that much in the 2nd half 

Nope. Nowhere will you find it reported that Kitchens wholesale changed the offense year 2. Kitchens learned pro offense coordinating and play calling from Haley going back to Dallas and Arizona. He said he learned offense from Haley...so he wasn't just piggy backing a scheme in 18....It was his scheme too.  He and Monken tinkered some, as I'd imagine most play callers do from year to year...adding in some things, but it was essentially the same offense with the same play caller. That was a major factor in hiring Kitchens as HC in the first place...continuity of coaching and scheme.

Obviously though...the guys that stayed ended up not as competent as the coaches that were let go, as far as fundamentals and in week game planning ...that's what Wylie's alluding to.

Baker's rookie year performance was misleading until that final rematch with Baltimore. He wasn't reading defenses or quickly going through projections year 1, same as year 2. It's just defenses were playing him differently..more straight up and with less disguise. Once Beckham was added in..teams started trying to take him out of the game and it required Baker to read and anticipate better instead of just grip it and rip it.

Stefanski is scheming for this and trying to avoid full field reads for him from the pocket. Dialing up pass schemes that take some of the decision burden off of him.

Edited by BrownLeader

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Really good breakdown of Mayfield vs Indianapolis here. My only bone is I think he gives Baker misplaced credit for those two throws to Landry, where he caught it off the guy's back, and Beckham, who just happened to have the ball fall into his hand while on the ground after the DB broke on him. Those throws are into heavy traffic and usually result in INT's for Baker. They just bounced right in this one.

Edited by BrownLeader

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On 10/16/2020 at 7:53 PM, BrownLeader said:

Nope. Nowhere will you find it reported that Kitchens wholesale changed the offense year 2. Kitchens learned pro offense coordinating and play calling from Haley going back to Dallas and Arizona

lets see. Haley and Kitchen spent 1yr together in Dallas and 2yrs in Arizona, total of 3yrs. Freddie and Arians were in Arizona together for 5yrs. You dont need a reporter to report that, you could see it with your own two eyes. Could also add that kitchen and Arians were in a race to build a staff first since they were going to want the same pol

 

On 10/16/2020 at 7:53 PM, BrownLeader said:

He and Monken tinkered some, as I'd imagine most play callers do from year to year...adding in some things, but it was essentially the same offense with the same play caller. That was a major factor in hiring Kitchens as HC in the first place...continuity of coaching and scheme.

You said it was essentially the same offense but yet Freddie called it completely differently. '18, Freddie rarely called for the deep shot, actually waited for it to be used at the right time. '19, freddie was taking the HR shot, about once every 2-3 series. You cant honestly say everything was exactly the same from '18 to '19 with the only difference being Baker playing bad because that is just a massive bag of Bullsh--.You take a poll on this site and ask if you believe freddie changed the scheme up from '18 to ;19 and I bet you 90%-95% would say yes because it was different. Hell, the scheme in '18 easily covered up Robinson and Hubbard as tackles but in '19 he couldnt call a play or game plan that would help those tackles out at all. Hell, you go back to the game day threads and you will see posters begging Freddie to go back to the '18 scheme. If you honestly thing he didnt change schemes up, you must be blind. Also in '18, freddie never abandon schemes and game plans. He did that in '19 a lot

 

On 10/16/2020 at 7:53 PM, BrownLeader said:

Baker's rookie year performance was misleading until that final rematch with Baltimore. He wasn't reading defenses or quickly going through projections year 1, same as year 2. It's just defenses were playing him differently..more straight up and with less disguise. Once Beckham was added in..teams started trying to take him out of the game and it required Baker to read and anticipate better instead of just grip it and rip it.

Oh you mean when Baker should have dropped 400+ passing yards on one of the best passing defenses in the league? Baker went for 376 and had a bomb dropped by Jarvis that hit him right in the face mask. Same game where Chubb only ran for 50yards. Ravens in '18 only gave up three 300yard passing game. One to Mahomes and two to Baker. 

 

On 10/16/2020 at 7:53 PM, BrownLeader said:

Stefanski is scheming for this and trying to avoid full field reads for him from the pocket. Dialing up pass schemes that take some of the decision burden off of him.

Ah, so in a covid offseason, with no OTAs, no true offseason, no preseason games, the HC has slowly brought the offense a long... I know that seems weird because we havent seen that in Cleveland but that is what good coaches do. Hell it took Whisenhunt three years to  open up the passing playbook for Big Ben. You should play rookie QBs but bring them a long slowly. Cant expect them to master an entire playbook

Edited by buno67
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Not exactly inspiring play the last 4 quarters.

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