QB to start your Franchise

[iknowcool]

59 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Russell Wilson has had no offensive line for basically his entire career, his team has shifted through RB's every 2-3 years despite being a run-first team and his best WR through the first half of his career was UDFA Doug Baldwin. Yeah, he had a good defense for the first half but didn't have much talent on offense around him and still dominated.

You are so blatantly underrating the heck out of his surrounding cast.  "Yeah, he had a good defense"?  Dude, the defense finished #1 in scoring in his first 4 seasons.  And in 2016, they finished 3rd!  Trying to write it off as if it was your standard good defense is crazy to me.  They weren't just good.  And they weren't just dominant.  They were historically dominant.  Multiple HOFers.  

"His best WR through the first half of his career was UDFA Doug Baldwin?"  You saying that like Baldwin wasn't a good WR.  Baldwin was damn good.  Dude didn't put up crazy bulk numbers because the Seahawks weren't that kind of team, but he was good.  And you know he was good.  So I'm not sure why you're acting like him being the team's best receiver is a bad thing.  Baldwin was a solid #1 WR.  

"Shifted through RB's every 2-3 years?"  Marshawn Lynch missed 0 games between 2012-2014, and in 3 seasons ran for over 4,000 yards and 36 TDs at 4.6 YPC.  Chris Carson missed only 3 games between 2018 and 2019, still ran for over 2,300 yards and 16 TDs at 4.5 YPC.  Lynch wasn't very good anymore in 2015, but they had Rawls come in and churn off 850 some yards at 5.6 YPC.  2016 and 2017 are the only years where got no production from his running backs.  

And finally, "still dominated."  Wilson absolutely did not dominate in the first half of his career.  He was good, yeah.  Often great.  But he did not dominate.  And I don't see how you can really talk about the Seahawks defense as if they were just "a good defense" and then say Wilson dominated in the first half of his career.
 

Wilson landed in a great situation.  And anyone looking at it without a dog in the fight could see that.  Everyone was hyping the Seahawks up before 2013.  And really, why do you even have to downplay the talent around him?  Everyone knows Russ is a great QB and HOF-lock.  There is no reason to act like he didn't have a lot of talent around him, because he did.  He landed in a better situation than 90% of young QBs do.  

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, iknowcool said:

You are so blatantly underrating the heck out of his surrounding cast.  "Yeah, he had a good defense"?  Dude, the defense finished #1 in scoring in his first 4 seasons.  And in 2016, they finished 3rd!  Trying to write it off as if it was your standard good defense is crazy to me.  They weren't just good.  And they weren't just dominant.  They were historically dominant.  Multiple HOFers.  

And during that stretch Wilson was still a dominant QB...despite having no OL to speak of.

Just now, iknowcool said:

"His best WR through the first half of his career was UDFA Doug Baldwin?"  You saying that like Baldwin wasn't a good WR.  Baldwin was damn good.  Dude didn't put up crazy bulk numbers because the Seahawks weren't that kind of team, but he was good.  And you know he was good.  So I'm not sure why you're acting like him being the team's best receiver is a bad thing.  Baldwin was a solid #1 WR.  

Is it maybe possible that Wilson is responsible for Baldwin being as good as he was? Because Wilson has done the same thing with basically every WR group he's had since he's been in the league. Didn't matter if it was Sidney Rice, Doug Baldwin, Jermaine Kearse, Tyler Lockett or David Moore. Like the OL, you can put anyone out there and Wilson will make them look good.

And that's not crapping on Baldwin, who was arguably the best route runner in the NFL during his career.

Just now, iknowcool said:

"Shifted through RB's every 2-3 years?"  Marshawn Lynch missed 0 games between 2012-2014, and in 3 seasons ran for over 4,000 yards and 36 TDs at 4.6 YPC.  Chris Carson missed only 3 games between 2018 and 2019, still ran for over 2,300 yards and 16 TDs at 4.5 YPC.  Lynch wasn't very good anymore in 2015, but they had Rawls come in and churn off 850 some yards at 5.6 YPC.  2016 and 2017 are the only years where got no production from his running backs.  

Marshawn Lynch, Thomas Rawls, revolving door, Chris Carson. Throughout that, Wilson's production stayed consistently elite despite basically being hamstrung by the system he was playing in.

Just now, iknowcool said:

And finally, "still dominated."  Wilson absolutely did not dominate in the first half of his career.  He was good, yeah.  Often great.  But he did not dominate.  And I don't see how you can really talk about the Seahawks defense as if they were just "a good defense" and then say Wilson dominated in the first half of his career.
 

Wilson landed in a great situation.  And anyone looking at it without a dog in the fight could see that.  Everyone was hyping the Seahawks up before 2013.  And really, why do you even have to downplay the talent around him?  Everyone knows Russ is a great QB and HOF-lock.  There is no reason to act like he didn't have a lot of talent around him, because he did.  He landed in a better situation than 90% of young QBs do.  

Any other QB would've been killed behind Wilson's offensive lines. Period. The defense might have carried them to 7-9 wins, but absolutely no chance of them winning a Superbowl or even being a contender without Wilson.

[iknowcool]

So Baldwin was arguably the best route runner in the NFL... but Wilson was responsible for him being as good as he was?  

Nobody is questioning how consistent Wilson has been.  That's not the point.  Everyone knows Wilson is great and how consistent he is.  But you are saying things that just aren't true.  Wilson was drafted into a great situation.  Wilson had very good RBs.  Wilson had a DOMINANT defense.  Wilson had solid receivers.  Wilson had a great head coach.  You are acting like those things don't matter.

What rookie QBs (ofc excluding guys who were just drafted to be career back-ups) over the last decade have been drafted into better situations?  I'm genuinely curious, because if you think the Seahawks team wasn't as good of a situation for a rookie QB, then I'm really trying to figure out what rookie QBs you think have had it better.  Patrick Mahomes is the only one I can think of, and that's only if we're putting more weight on receiving options than anything else.  Russ had a much better RB and way, way better defense.  

Quote

Any other QB would've been killed behind Wilson's offensive lines. Period. 

This is another Wilson narrative that is tiring.  Yes, his offensive lines have been bad.  However

1) Wilson brings a lot of the sacks on himself.  And nothing wrong with that.  It's part of his game.  But it gave an admittedly bad offensive line a much worse reputation, which has led to this...

2) ... the idea he's the only QB that's had a bad offensive line.  Have you seen the Texans play?  And yet, Watson has been just fine.  Newton's OL was terrible, and again, he was just fine.  Luck was just fine until the injuries.  Big Ben had an absolutely dreadful OL for awhile and managed.  Obviously I'm not saying those three are as good as Wilson, but my point is Wilson is far from the only QB to still produce behind a bad OL.  

Edited October 6, 2020 by iknowcool

[SBLIII]

4 hours ago, rich homie said:

Literally the two QB's who might have been the most "smothered in talent" to start their careers off.

It took Russell Wilson a good 8 seasons in the league before he actually started to elevate the team around him. Remember when he had the best year of his career and the Seahawks missed the playoffs?

Wilson, yes. Brady, no.  There is a reason the Patriots were starting 5-13 with Belichick and franchise QB Bledsoe. Team wasn't good. TEs rubbish, WRs journeymen. 400 yard receiver, 400 yard rusher as RB was their best player at the skill positions.

Rice, Miller, Lynch, Tate and Baldwin was a very solid supporting cast for Wilson coming into the league. The Seahawks also won 7 games the year before with terrible QB play by a career backup.

Lets not even talk about their elite defense in 2012 which allowed the Seahawks to alter their offensive plans.

[iknowcool]

31 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

.Any other QB would've been killed behind Wilson's offensive lines. Period. The defense might have carried them to 7-9 wins, but absolutely no chance of them winning a Superbowl or even being a contender without Wilson.

The Seahawks went 7-9 in 2011 with the terrible Tarvaris Jackson, and the defense wasn't even elite yet because Sherm and Browner were rookies and Kam/ET were in their 2nd year, still finished 7th in the league in scoring.  All they needed was solid QB play, it didn't even need to be Wilson, and they are a playoff team and thus contender.  

If you believe all of this, really, then I think you forgot how hyped up the Seahawks were around that time.  LIS, nobody was shocked when they had as much success as they did as fast as they did.  

Edited October 6, 2020 by iknowcool

[m haynes]

I'm going with Russell Wilson or Steve McNair. remember its a expansion team. Brady and Manning would be dead before the 1/2 way point. Think David Carr.

I go with Wilson he can run. I go with McNair because he was the toughess QB I ever seen play.

Pocket passer, heck no !

Edited December 6, 2020 by m haynes

[rich homie]

The amount of people saying Russell Wilson is absolutely astounding. He wouldn't even make the top 5 for *active* QB's for me.