The Raider Depreciation Thread 📉

[drfrey13]

4 hours ago, Steins Gate said:

So your point is that the offense should be better based on the combination of talent and having an "offensive guru" at HC calling the plays? Or is this about Carr?

I personally believe that both units needs to be better. Also, if the defense were at least middle of the road like the offense, the W/L record would be better. Having a middle of the road offense and a bottom 3 defense is not a recipe for wins.

My point is that I do not even see the offense as middle of the road.  Statistically yes but a continued inability to execute at the end of games knocks them down for me.  The same as last year when many where hyped about Carr's passing yards.  How good a team is between the 20s means less to me then how good they are in the redzone.  Can you do it when it counts and/or when it is needed.  Defense has been garbage in the redzone but good to close out games.  Offense has been bad in both areas.  And yes once again we are setup for the offense to carry us.  We have been this way since they decided to extend Carr and trade Mack.  Horrible drafting has compounded the issue.

[Steins Gate]

4 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

My point is that I do not even see the offense as middle of the road.  Statistically yes but a continued inability to execute at the end of games knocks them down for me.  The same as last year when many where hyped about Carr's passing yards.  How good a team is between the 20s means less to me then how good they are in the redzone.  Can you do it when it counts and/or when it is needed.  Defense has been garbage in the redzone but good to close out games.  Offense has been bad in both areas.  And yes once again we are setup for the offense to carry us.  We have been this way since they decided to extend Carr and trade Mack.  Horrible drafting has compounded the issue.

This is an interesting take. Clutchness matters. I will give you a like for this.

[true2form]

19 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Your defense is going to let scores happen.  Even the best defenses give up points.

Week 1 is undeniable and nobody is going to argue there.

Week 2  I have no clue how you can say blown lead when the offense was given the ball in OT and had a fumble returned for a TD.  The defense never allowed the Cards to take the lead.

Week 3   We were down 2 scores at the half.  Was not a huge lead and the defense gave up almost nothing.  The offense could not do anything.  The defense limited the Titans to 12 minutes TOP.  Not to mention the offense having 6 red zone trips and producing 2 TDs, 3 FGs, and 1 TO.  So yes I put a lot of blame on the offense.

Week 5 Good production but once again they crapped the bed at the end which was my original point.  Also we tie the game if they just kick the extra point.  Yes we gave up a 17 point lead to the best offense in the league at the same time our offense slowed.  We needed both sides of the ball that game and we came up short on both sides.

Week 8 If the offense does not die in the second half (65 yards, 0 points, 3 punts and 2 TOs) the defense would most likely would not have given up the lead.  Just getting a TD in the 2nd half stops us from going for it on 4th down in our own territory.  The defense gave up 10 points on the 1st and 14 in the 2nd.  I do not count the last FG because we turned the ball over and they were already in FG range.

Week 9 This week I will not make excuses for the defense because they did give up the score late but once again the offense could not come through.

I am not going to say the defense is good but we knew that.  I am not happy with 25 points per game but I am more upset with the offense producing 22.6 points per game.  Once again if I told you the defense would average 25 points per game how many games would you think we win?  A lot more than 2 would be my guess.

 

Week 2 - What? 20-0 is a 20-0 lead.  The defense gave that up, end of story. Blown lead.

Week 3 - Our offense played a good defense all game.  Their offense got 3 free scores before our defense showed up. I don't know how people don't understand this.

Week 5 - If they kick the extra point who knows the outcome.  That's not the point though.  Offense scored enough points to win the game, defense gave up too many and decided to not even cover Kelce in the red zone.  Kelce didn't beat them, they didn't even cover him.

Week 8 - I don't give the defense a pass.  They should be doing their job regardless of what the offense does.  I'm not saying it's the defenses fault the offense isn't scoring, even though they don't help at all.  Stats clearly show that.

Week 9 - Offense kept taking the lead and defense kept giving it up.  The biggest point I'm trying to make.  Even if the offense had been successful on all these "last" drives to win, I believe the defense just allows the other team to score right after.  Our offense has been so consumed with running out the clock and scoring at the end of games because they don't want to give it back to our D.  I wonder what the narrative would be if the offense just rushed down there and scored?

You're looking at overall PPG and that's a fine stat.  I'm diving deeper and seeing that both offense and defense are limited in their drives by the way we play defense. The defense gives fewer drives to the opposing offense, but they're successful drives.  Our offense then gets fewer chances and has very little room for error.  Look at the stats that were posted about Points per drive, starting position, etc etc.

Much bigger picture than would I be happy with this PPG total.

[BackinBlack]

11 hours ago, NYRaider said:

But at the end of the day we're still allowing less points which means they're getting there less. 

because our O is number 1 in average length of drives? 
Is it possible that plays a part in it? Or no?

[BackinBlack]

7 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

My point is that I do not even see the offense as middle of the road.  Statistically yes but a continued inability to execute at the end of games knocks them down for me.  The same as last year when many where hyped about Carr's passing yards.  How good a team is between the 20s means less to me then how good they are in the redzone.  Can you do it when it counts and/or when it is needed.  Defense has been garbage in the redzone but good to close out games.  Offense has been bad in both areas.  And yes once again we are setup for the offense to carry us.  We have been this way since they decided to extend Carr and trade Mack.  Horrible drafting has compounded the issue.

Honest question, we say theyve been good to close out games. . . but is that potentially just because the O hasnt scored? 
Week 1, if we scored, Chargers still have around 2 mins with the ball. 
Week 3, Titans would still have 2 mins to need a FG
Week 5, we score 2 points, does KC play more aggresive for the FG instead of running out clock?
Week 7, Jax went kill the clock after the first stop and then kneeled out
Week 8, Colts wouldve had some time IIRC. 

All of those games, yes the O did not score. Problem 1, we dont score at end of games. 

But do you actually believe we stop all those teams from getting into FG range at the end?

[drfrey13]

21 minutes ago, true2form said:

Week 2 - What? 20-0 is a 20-0 lead.  The defense gave that up, end of story. Blown lead.

Week 3 - Our offense played a good defense all game.  Their offense got 3 free scores before our defense showed up. I don't know how people don't understand this.

Week 5 - If they kick the extra point who knows the outcome.  That's not the point though.  Offense scored enough points to win the game, defense gave up too many and decided to not even cover Kelce in the red zone.  Kelce didn't beat them, they didn't even cover him.

Week 8 - I don't give the defense a pass.  They should be doing their job regardless of what the offense does.  I'm not saying it's the defenses fault the offense isn't scoring, even though they don't help at all.  Stats clearly show that.

Week 9 - Offense kept taking the lead and defense kept giving it up.  The biggest point I'm trying to make.  Even if the offense had been successful on all these "last" drives to win, I believe the defense just allows the other team to score right after.  Our offense has been so consumed with running out the clock and scoring at the end of games because they don't want to give it back to our D.  I wonder what the narrative would be if the offense just rushed down there and scored?

You're looking at overall PPG and that's a fine stat.  I'm diving deeper and seeing that both offense and defense are limited in their drives by the way we play defense. The defense gives fewer drives to the opposing offense, but they're successful drives.  Our offense then gets fewer chances and has very little room for error.  Look at the stats that were posted about Points per drive, starting position, etc etc.

Much bigger picture than would I be happy with this PPG total.

Week 2  Because the defense never gave up the lead.  The only time the Cards were ahead was after a fumble return for a TD.  Yes the defense gave up 23 points but both sides of the ball where both to blame for the collapse in the second half.  When we needed the defense to make a stop and get the ball back to the offense they did and the offense gave up the winning points.  Once again, the defense played really really really really really bad in the second half but the offense played equally as bad.  Difference is the defense was able to come through at the end and the offense gave up the winning score.

Week 3 the defense was horrible in the 1st half.  Then the Titans got completely shutdown and we were only down 2 scores.  Good defense or not we should have been able to wear down their defense.  Offense had 5 chances to get 2 TDs.  We settled for 1 TD, 2 FGs, and 1 punts, and 1 Int,  The Int was thrown after the defense got the ball back close to midfield and the punt happened after the defense got the ball back already in FG range.  Just kicking a FG, which is what we are good at, on either drive gives us the W.  Yes the defense had a bad 1st half but they gave the game to the offense on a silver platter in the 2nd half and they could not convert.

Week 5 I will concede this point but then you must concede but then you must concede weeks 1, 2 ,3, 7, and 9.  The defense held the opponent to 25 points or less which should be enough for the offense to win the game.

To address your point in week nine.  The offense was given the ball at the end of games with just enough time to make a final game winning drive.  If they score then the other team has a very small window if any to retake the lead.  Scoring quickly is not a great strategy and lets just say the defense loses half the leads but not scoring means we lose all the games.

In the last point you say to look deeper and look at more specific type bulk stats.  I am looking even deeper and looking at the specific drives and plays within them.  Once again I am not saying the defense does not deserve blame or they are even average but their one saving characteristic is they have been able to close out games in a majority of our losses.

[drfrey13]

14 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

Honest question, we say theyve been good to close out games. . . but is that potentially just because the O hasnt scored? 
Week 1, if we scored, Chargers still have around 2 mins with the ball. 
Week 3, Titans would still have 2 mins to need a FG
Week 5, we score 2 points, does KC play more aggresive for the FG instead of running out clock?
Week 7, Jax went kill the clock after the first stop and then kneeled out
Week 8, Colts wouldve had some time IIRC. 

All of those games, yes the O did not score. Problem 1, we dont score at end of games. 

But do you actually believe we stop all those teams from getting into FG range at the end?

I do not think if we change 1 aspect of the team everything else stays the same.  Perfect example is the Cardinals game.  I was actually hoping that the Cards would score on their last 1st half drive.  Maybe then the team does not think they have it in the bag and take their foot off the gas.  Having said that a team should never say we have a lead so we should be fine giving the ball back to their offense with 2-4 minutes left.  That is just playing with fire.  Therefore I would think that everyone of those teams wanted to score on their last drives to put the game away.  Colts wanted to and did so that is on the defense and the Titans game is more about the entire half.  If the teams had multiple score leads then I completely agree but each team risked losing the game this way.  Only way this is true is if the fix is in for the Raiders to win and JMD is just trying to tank.

I will break down each game with my opinion.

Week 1, if we scored, Chargers still have around 2 mins with the ball. 

There was 2 minutes when we turned the ball over but had not crossed midfield yet.  We easily run off the clock if we are able to keep the drive alive and score

Week 3, Titans would still have 2 mins to need a FG

This is closer to your example but if convert Titans have 1:14 to convert.  Not impossible but would have been close.  The offense never gave the defense a chance so you can only go with what you know and that was that the offense did not convert.

Week 5, we score 2 points, does KC play more aggresive for the FG instead of running out clock?

We can discuss what happened before the drive but my point is the final drive.  More specifically Adams not getting his feet down or the long pass on 4 and 1 with 47 seconds left, we are close to FG range, and are down by 1.  JMD really fooled them there.  Chiefs would have had very little if any time to work with.

Week 7, Jax went kill the clock after the first stop and then kneeled out

It was a 4 point game to start the 4th so they were not trying to run out the clock except the last 2 drives and the defense still gave the offense another shot.  Only points the defense gave up was a FG in what would normally be a 3 and out but we turned the ball over in FG range.  We did get a missed FG so I guess it cancels out but the offense had the entire 4th to score 1 TD.  If I am a coach I am not trying to just run out the clock there.  I want the go ahead score.

Week 8, Colts wouldve had some time IIRC. 

Defense gave up the winning score and the offense could not come back.  This was on both sides of the ball.  We were in the red zone with 47 seconds left so with a quick score Indy has a chance but once again we do not know what the defense does.

If we lose the games we do not know we are still 3-2 and 5-4 on the season.

[true2form]

15 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Week 2  Because the defense never gave up the lead.  The only time the Cards were ahead was after a fumble return for a TD.  Yes the defense gave up 23 points but both sides of the ball where both to blame for the collapse in the second half.  When we needed the defense to make a stop and get the ball back to the offense they did and the offense gave up the winning points.  Once again, the defense played really really really really really bad in the second half but the offense played equally as bad.  Difference is the defense was able to come through at the end and the offense gave up the winning score.

Week 3 the defense was horrible in the 1st half.  Then the Titans got completely shutdown and we were only down 2 scores.  Good defense or not we should have been able to wear down their defense.  Offense had 5 chances to get 2 TDs.  We settled for 1 TD, 2 FGs, and 1 punts, and 1 Int,  The Int was thrown after the defense got the ball back close to midfield and the punt happened after the defense got the ball back already in FG range.  Just kicking a FG, which is what we are good at, on either drive gives us the W.  Yes the defense had a bad 1st half but they gave the game to the offense on a silver platter in the 2nd half and they could not convert.

Week 5 I will concede this point but then you must concede but then you must concede weeks 1, 2 ,3, 7, and 9.  The defense held the opponent to 25 points or less which should be enough for the offense to win the game.

To address your point in week nine.  The offense was given the ball at the end of games with just enough time to make a final game winning drive.  If they score then the other team has a very small window if any to retake the lead.  Scoring quickly is not a great strategy and lets just say the defense loses half the leads but not scoring means we lose all the games.

In the last point you say to look deeper and look at more specific type bulk stats.  I am looking even deeper and looking at the specific drives and plays within them.  Once again I am not saying the defense does not deserve blame or they are even average but their one saving characteristic is they have been able to close out games in a majority of our losses.

Then let's agree to disagree. I refuse to give this league worst D, credit for finding a way late in the game to do what it's supposed to do.

Because a 20-0 lead is a lead.  A 17-0 lead is a lead.  To me.  If the defense gives up more points than that the rest of the way, it's a blown lead, to me. If the offense took a knee the rest of the game and the defense couldn't stop them, it's still a blown lead by the defense, to me.  

The defense doesn't get a pass because they stink.  The defense doesn't get brownie points because they made a stop late in the game giving the offense a chance to win.  We wouldn't need that chance if the lead hadn't already been blown.

The offense needs to be better, no question about it.  In years past, I'd have had faith in Carr leading us to the win late.  Not sure what the issue is this year.  However, there is a reason most of our games are 1 score wins or 1 score losses.  No matter how many points the offense scores, the defense is giving up just as many.  Even in games we've had big leads, the defense finds a way to give up 20+ points and in one half sometimes too. Which to me means, even if the offense scored 30 ppg, the defense would find a way to give up 31.

 

[MrOaktown_56]

On 11/18/2022 at 8:53 AM, true2form said:

Then let's agree to disagree. I refuse to give this league worst D, credit for finding a way late in the game to do what it's supposed to do.

Because a 20-0 lead is a lead.  A 17-0 lead is a lead.  To me.  If the defense gives up more points than that the rest of the way, it's a blown lead, to me. If the offense took a knee the rest of the game and the defense couldn't stop them, it's still a blown lead by the defense, to me.  

The defense doesn't get a pass because they stink.  The defense doesn't get brownie points because they made a stop late in the game giving the offense a chance to win.  We wouldn't need that chance if the lead hadn't already been blown.

The offense needs to be better, no question about it.  In years past, I'd have had faith in Carr leading us to the win late.  Not sure what the issue is this year.  However, there is a reason most of our games are 1 score wins or 1 score losses.  No matter how many points the offense scores, the defense is giving up just as many.  Even in games we've had big leads, the defense finds a way to give up 20+ points and in one half sometimes too. Which to me means, even if the offense scored 30 ppg, the defense would find a way to give up 31.

 

FIFY

[RaidersAreOne]

This is so sad lol.

 

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, RaidersAreOne said:

This is so sad lol.

 

Chandler is the 6th highest paid DE in the league too, that was such a huge whiff by the new front office.

[Geezy]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

Chandler is the 6th highest paid DE in the league too, that was such a huge whiff by the new front office.

I didn’t mind at the time, I thought it was risky after this year. I didn’t think he’d fall off this fast. 

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, Geezy said:

I didn’t mind at the time, I thought it was risky after this year. I didn’t think he’d fall off this fast. 

I don't think anyone predicted that he'd fall off of a cliff, NFL.com had him as the 5th best FA/PFF had him as the 3rd best FA. 

[Steins Gate]

11 hours ago, RaidersAreOne said:

This is so sad lol.

 

Chandler's pass rush moves still work and he gets pressure. But he has lost his closing speed. I can think of about 8 times he has come within a foot of getting a sack and missed it. Age and Injuries have taken their toll.

[MrOaktown_56]

4 minutes ago, Steins Gate said:

Chandler's pass rush moves still work and he gets pressure. But he has lost his closing speed. I can think of about 8 times he has come within a foot of getting a sack and missed it. Age and Injuries have taken their toll.

Yeah he’s definitely not a bum. He’s just not a top edge rusher anymore. I think he could have a resurgence next year and he’s under contract anyways.