Skins212689 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Just now, MikeT14 said: So by giving him Allen Robinson, his mechanics improve? That's not how that works. You can improve the line to give him more time to throw, you can get better WRs to make it easier for him to make some throws, but that doesn't improve the problems he has mechanically that need to be fixed. That help comes from HIM working on it with the coaches. He was baited into some bad throws. I don't understand how you're arguing this? Ok understandable now. Practice, Coaching, and a better OLine should help Haskins improve on those mechanics Your talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troublez Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, lavar703 said: Oh come on, that’s not even remotely good value for a 27-year old who’s one of the best receivers in the league. Chicago could probably get a second for him. Look - Market Value includes all relevant considerations. If the WFT is expected to be a bottom feeder - our 4th/5th holds additional value than say a contender. Average value of of our 4th and 5th is most likely valued at 2 mid 4th round selections. In addition, anyone trading for AR will have to sign the young man to a contract in the middle of the season that is high AAV. Many teams do not have the salary cap to accommodate and will be excluded as eligible participants. Thus, you need to apply a marketability discount to any draft assets we are negotiating. On top of that, it will likely take AR 3 to 4 weeks for him to be familiar enough with the offense to see WR #1/#2 snap counts. Again, discount needed. And what is the ceiling for a talented WR? 2nd round for Hopkins? 2nd round for Antonio Brown (pre-meltdown)? In instances where the Team's internal valuation suggests that the juice is NOT WORTH the squeeze - more times than not its true. Especially, for certain players, such as skill-position players whose shelf life is shorter than others. This is my thought process.... and ultimately how I arrived at my opinion. Edited September 17, 2020 by Troublez 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, MikeT14 said: So by giving him Allen Robinson, his mechanics improve? That's not how that works. You can improve the line to give him more time to throw, you can get better WRs to make it easier for him to make some throws, but that doesn't improve the problems he has mechanically that need to be fixed. That help comes from HIM working on it with the coaches. He was baited into some bad throws. I don't understand how you're arguing this? We all know it’s arguing to argue. That’s all it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 32 minutes ago, turtle28 said: We all know it’s arguing to argue. That’s all it is. Don't speak for me. I clarified my statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Troublez said: And what is the ceiling for a talented WR? 2nd round for Hopkins? 2nd round for Antonio Brown (pre-meltdown)? In instances where the Team's internal valuation suggests that the juice is NOT WORTH the squeeze - more times than not its true. Especially, for certain players, such as skill-position players whose shelf life is shorter than others. This is my thought process.... and ultimately how I arrived at my opinion. The Hopkins trade was for a 2nd and David Johnson — who the Texans evidently valued. And that return was panned as one of the worst trades of all time for Houston. The Antonio Brown trade was closer to “early meltdown” than “pre-meltdown,” I think, as he was coming off a week 17 where he got into an altercation with Ben Roethlisberger (throwing a ball at Ben apparently) and then skipped the rest of week’s practices, apparently the 3rd time he’d gone AWOL that year. They benched him with the playoffs on the line for his action, and it was pretty clear he was done there. At that time, he was also facing lawsuits stemming from an incident where he threw a bunch of items off a 14th floor balcony and was in hot water for threatening a beat reporter. The meltdown had already been happening, the Steelers just kept a lid on it to some degree. To answer your question about the trade ceiling for a talented receiver, I think you just have to look at the other guy mentioned in this thread: Odell Beckham. He (along with Olivier Vernon) brought back a 1st, a 3rd, Kevin Zeitler, and Jabrill Peppers. Vernon was a relative disappointment for NYG, and he had a huge contract, so the vast majority of that return was for OBJ. Robinson is a really good player, but he’s not on the level of OBJ circa 2018. No one is giving up that kind of package for him (with a new contract impending). But I think it would be awfully difficult to peg his trade value at anything lower than a mid-2nd. That’s what Mohamed Sanu brought back, and Robinson is clearly the much superior player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troublez Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 38 minutes ago, e16bball said: The Hopkins trade was for a 2nd and David Johnson — who the Texans evidently valued. And that return was panned as one of the worst trades of all time for Houston. The Antonio Brown trade was closer to “early meltdown” than “pre-meltdown,” I think, as he was coming off a week 17 where he got into an altercation with Ben Roethlisberger (throwing a ball at Ben apparently) and then skipped the rest of week’s practices, apparently the 3rd time he’d gone AWOL that year. They benched him with the playoffs on the line for his action, and it was pretty clear he was done there. At that time, he was also facing lawsuits stemming from an incident where he threw a bunch of items off a 14th floor balcony and was in hot water for threatening a beat reporter. The meltdown had already been happening, the Steelers just kept a lid on it to some degree. To answer your question about the trade ceiling for a talented receiver, I think you just have to look at the other guy mentioned in this thread: Odell Beckham. He (along with Olivier Vernon) brought back a 1st, a 3rd, Kevin Zeitler, and Jabrill Peppers. Vernon was a relative disappointment for NYG, and he had a huge contract, so the vast majority of that return was for OBJ. Robinson is a really good player, but he’s not on the level of OBJ circa 2018. No one is giving up that kind of package for him (with a new contract impending). But I think it would be awfully difficult to peg his trade value at anything lower than a mid-2nd. That’s what Mohamed Sanu brought back, and Robinson is clearly the much superior player. Yes - but how many of those were mid season? For that reason, I feel as though that mid 2nd needs discounted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offbyone Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 50 minutes ago, e16bball said: The Hopkins trade was for a 2nd and David Johnson — who the Texans evidently valued. And that return was panned as one of the worst trades of all time for Houston. The Antonio Brown trade was closer to “early meltdown” than “pre-meltdown,” I think, as he was coming off a week 17 where he got into an altercation with Ben Roethlisberger (throwing a ball at Ben apparently) and then skipped the rest of week’s practices, apparently the 3rd time he’d gone AWOL that year. They benched him with the playoffs on the line for his action, and it was pretty clear he was done there. At that time, he was also facing lawsuits stemming from an incident where he threw a bunch of items off a 14th floor balcony and was in hot water for threatening a beat reporter. The meltdown had already been happening, the Steelers just kept a lid on it to some degree. To answer your question about the trade ceiling for a talented receiver, I think you just have to look at the other guy mentioned in this thread: Odell Beckham. He (along with Olivier Vernon) brought back a 1st, a 3rd, Kevin Zeitler, and Jabrill Peppers. Vernon was a relative disappointment for NYG, and he had a huge contract, so the vast majority of that return was for OBJ. Robinson is a really good player, but he’s not on the level of OBJ circa 2018. No one is giving up that kind of package for him (with a new contract impending). But I think it would be awfully difficult to peg his trade value at anything lower than a mid-2nd. That’s what Mohamed Sanu brought back, and Robinson is clearly the much superior player. Agree with this. Also, you can't base any market value off anything the texans do. When it comes to these players being considered knuckleheads I think we all need to recognize there is a huge difference between guys like Antonio Brown and say Josh Gordon as opposed to an OBJ or Robinson who simply wants a new contract. I would rather get OBJ but I think they are both players we should be at least evaluating if we can acquire. Maybe the Browns would like Alex Smith + a draft pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, offbyone said: Agree with this. Also, you can't base any market value off anything the texans do. When it comes to these players being considered knuckleheads I think we all need to recognize there is a huge difference between guys like Antonio Brown and say Josh Gordon as opposed to an OBJ or Robinson who simply wants a new contract. I would rather get OBJ but I think they are both players we should be at least evaluating if we can acquire. Maybe the Browns would like Alex Smith + a draft pick. I don’t see the Browns or anyone trading for Alex Smith - no one knows how he’ll hold up vs DL hits & his cap number is high to take on for another team in a trade. Also, the Browns have Case Keenum as a back up who isn’t great but he’s a serviceable back up capable of throwing for around 300 yards every now and then especially to a talented group of pass catchers like OBJ, Landry & Hooper. Edited September 17, 2020 by turtle28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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