Investing In Linebackers

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Just getting the temp of the room on how people view off ball linebackers?  
 

I get the hesitation in spending big bucks on them if they’re not elite, and I understand they probably aren’t valuable enough for a top 5-10 pick, but I feel like our biggest defensive issues over the last 2 decades have been due to horrific play at the second level of the defense.

As of now (obv early and subject to change) I think I’m all in on multiple early investments at LB.

Thoughts?

[MWil23]

41 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Just getting the temp of the room on how people view off ball linebackers?  
 

I get the hesitation in spending big bucks on them if they’re not elite, and I understand they probably aren’t valuable enough for a top 5-10 pick, but I feel like our biggest defensive issues over the last 2 decades have been due to horrific play at the second level of the defense.

As of now (obv early and subject to change) I think I’m all in on multiple early investments at LB.

Thoughts?

Let's see...

...haven't been able to stop the run since 1998

...we play in the AFC North

...our LB corps has been a consistent joke and still is

...Baltimore and Pittsburgh consistently draft off ball LB in the 1st and 2nd Round and are consistently top of the league in defense

...I am biased because I coach linebackers, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong

We need another DE, probably 2 high drafted type LB, at least 1 more safety, maybe another CB, and maybe 1-2 more DL for EDGE and interior DL depth

[DaWg_LB.]

Good Morning Good Brother.....

Excellent topic here....IMO from the Draft standpoint, Off the ball LB's are either first rounders or day 3 picks for me......there are always LB's available that can do the job, hell or projected best LB was a 5th round selection (I think more Highly of Mack Wilson then some others in here)....But the list of LB's picked on day 3 this year include, Akeem Davis-Gaither, Troy Dye, Evan Weaver, Shaun Bradley and Shaquille Quaterman....All LB's I wouldnt mind having on this team.

The only off the ball LB., I would spend a 1rst round pick on is a MLB, who has the potential to be the QB of the defense, or an OLB that has some kind of insane flexibility....for instance this year I saw 2 1rst round Off the Ball LB's this year, Isaiah Simmions (who could play MLB, OLB, SS or Slot CB) and Kenneth Murry. Those are the only two I would have drafted.

I feel that if you get someone that is truly special, then you spend the money on a MLB (ex Luke Keekley) or OLB (ex Derrick Brooks, Lavonte David).

 

Also P.S.: I have a new Cleveland Browns Convert, coming over from the Washington Football team.....we worked together back in the day....and he moved to Texas. He is joining the room soon.

[DaWg_LB.]

19 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Let's see...

...haven't been able to stop the run since 1998

...we play in the AFC North

...our LB corps has been a consistent joke and still is

...Baltimore and Pittsburgh consistently draft off ball LB in the 1st and 2nd Round and are consistently top of the league in defense

...I am biased because I coach linebackers, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong

We need another DE, probably 2 high drafted type LB, at least 1 more safety, maybe another CB, and maybe 1-2 more DL for EDGE and interior DL depth

Pitts has been a team that runs a 3-4 since I can just about remember....so them drafting off the ball LB's has to be taken into account based on their system.

The Ravens I would disagree with, as far as Off the Ball LB's (1rst or 2nd round) they have drafted Patrick Queen, CJ Mosely ('14), Arther Brown ('13 and been outta the leauge since '16), Sergio Kendal ('10 been outta the leauge since '12), Jamie Sharper ('97) and Ray Lewis ('96) , so that's 5 "Off the Ball" LB's in 14 seasons...with two of the 5 being in the league 3 years or less....

(Bowser, Upshaw, Suggs were all passruhers/edge players)

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, DaWg_LB. said:

Pitts has been a team that runs a 3-4 since I can just about remember....so them drafting off the ball LB's has to be taken into account based on their system.

No doubt that scheme and personnel factors in comparable to a 3-4 vs. a 4-3, I will concede that.

1 minute ago, DaWg_LB. said:

The Ravens I would disagree with, as far as Off the Ball LB's (1rst or 2nd round) they have drafted Patrick Queen, CJ Mosely ('14), Arther Brown ('13 and been outta the leauge since '16), Sergio Kendal ('10 been outta the leauge since '12), Jamie Sharper ('97) and Ray Lewis ('96) , so that's 5 "Off the Ball" LB's in 14 seasons...with two of the 5 being in the league 3 years or less....

But, comparatively speaking, the highest off ball LB that we've drafted going back to 1998 is, and I will post ALL of them:

2020: Jacob Phillips: 3rd (97)

2019: Takitaki: 3rd (80), Mack Wilson: 5th (155)

2018: Genard Avery: 5th (180)

2016: Joe Schobert: 3rd (99), Scooby Wright: 7th (250)

2015: Hayes Pullard: 7th (219)

2014: Kirksey: 3rd (71)

2012: James-Micah Johnson: 4th (120), Emmanuel Acho: 6th (204)

2009: Kaluka Maiva: 4th (104)

2008: Beau Bell: 4th (104)

2006: D'Quell Jackson: 2nd (34), Leon Williams: 4th (110)

2005: Nick Speegle: 6th, (176)

2003: Chaun Thompson: 2nd (52)

2002: Kevin Bentley: 4th (101), Ben Taylor: 4th (111)

2001: Jeremiah Pharms (LOLOLOLOL) Arrested for Murder, 5th Round (134)

1999: Rahim Abdullah: 2nd (45), Wali Rainer: 4th (124), Kendall Ogle: 6th (187)

 

 

...All that to say, we've made all of 2-3 legitimate attempts to draft a LB high/close to high with D'Quell, who was rock solid, and Chaun Thompson, who was disappointing. You could also include Abdullah in 1999, but on an expansion team, it's hard to say. Regardless, in 22 years, that's THREE GUYS in 22 drafts, 0 of which were in the first round. That's my point.

 

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

31 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

No doubt that scheme and personnel factors in comparable to a 3-4 vs. a 4-3, I will concede that.

But, comparatively speaking, the highest off ball LB that we've drafted going back to 1998 is, and I will post ALL of them:

2020: Jacob Phillips: 3rd (97)

2019: Takitaki: 3rd (80), Mack Wilson: 5th (155)

2018: Genard Avery: 5th (180)

2016: Joe Schobert: 3rd (99), Scooby Wright: 7th (250)

2015: Hayes Pullard: 7th (219)

2014: Kirksey: 3rd (71)

2012: James-Micah Johnson: 4th (120), Emmanuel Acho: 6th (204)

2009: Kaluka Maiva: 4th (104)

2008: Beau Bell: 4th (104)

2006: D'Quell Jackson: 2nd (34), Leon Williams: 4th (110)

2005: Nick Speegle: 6th, (176)

2003: Chaun Thompson: 2nd (52)

2002: Kevin Bentley: 4th (101), Ben Taylor: 4th (111)

2001: Jeremiah Pharms (LOLOLOLOL) Arrested for Murder, 5th Round (134)

1999: Rahim Abdullah: 2nd (45), Wali Rainer: 4th (124), Kendall Ogle: 6th (187)

 

 

...All that to say, we've made all of 2-3 legitimate attempts to draft a LB high/close to high with D'Quell, who was rock solid, and Chaun Thompson, who was disappointing. You could also include Abdullah in 1999, but on an expansion team, it's hard to say. Regardless, in 22 years, that's THREE GUYS in 22 drafts, 0 of which were in the first round. That's my point.

 

 

That was.... depressing.

[DaWg_LB.]

44 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

No doubt that scheme and personnel factors in comparable to a 3-4 vs. a 4-3, I will concede that.

But, comparatively speaking, the highest off ball LB that we've drafted going back to 1998 is, and I will post ALL of them:........

 

 

...All that to say, we've made all of 2-3 legitimate attempts to draft a LB high/close to high with D'Quell, who was rock solid, and Chaun Thompson, who was disappointing. You could also include Abdullah in 1999, but on an expansion team, it's hard to say. Regardless, in 22 years, that's THREE GUYS in 22 drafts, 0 of which were in the first round. That's my point.

 

 

My bad Bro.....I might have misread what you were saying.....I get what you are saying now....thank you for the Clarification

Rough day at the job today, and I may be in the hangry / fight picking mood.....🙂....No offense intended.

[MWil23]

24 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

That was.... depressing.

It really was, but that honestly cemented what I was saying and why I believe it's borderline ridiculous at this point to believe that off ball LB are unimportant, when we've intentionally undervalued them for over two decades.

11 minutes ago, DaWg_LB. said:

My bad Bro.....I might have misread what you were saying.....I get what you are saying now....thank you for the Clarification

Absolutely man! We are good!

11 minutes ago, DaWg_LB. said:

Rough day at the job today, and I may be in the hangry / fight picking mood.....🙂....No offense intended.

Ugh, sorry brother! I hope all is well! You're still my "apocalypse buddy" with half those smoked meats you post!  I'm 100% not offended by anything you posted above, and even if you believed differently, that's what's fun about this forum! Different opinions and takes are great and welcomed!

[sdrawkcab321]

 

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

Let's see...

...haven't been able to stop the run since 1998

...we play in the AFC North

...our LB corps has been a consistent joke and still is

...Baltimore and Pittsburgh consistently draft off ball LB in the 1st and 2nd Round and are consistently top of the league in defense

...I am biased because I coach linebackers, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong

We need another DE, probably 2 high drafted type LB, at least 1 more safety, maybe another CB, and maybe 1-2 more DL for EDGE and interior DL depth

This X10000000

 

even cinci had good LBs when they had their playoff runs. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Another thing I notice is I feel like we never (rarely) go “brand name” at linebacker, it’s always some dude who experts have projected 2-3 rounds later and we’re gonna prove to everyone how smart we are.

At some point can we just take the guy who’s the household name, all Americans, etc?

I feel like Baltimore and Pittsburgh always do, so did Cincy when they were good.

Edited September 17, 2020 by LETSGOBROWNIES

[MWil23]

10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Another thing I notice is I feel like we never (rarely) go “brand name” at linebacker, it’s always some dude who experts have projected 2-3 rounds later and we’re gonna prove to everyone how smart we are.

At some point can we just take the guy who’s the household name, all Americans, etc?

I feel like Baltimore and Pittsburgh always do, so did Cincy when they were good.

Words and phrases used to describe said drafted guy:

Green

Raw

Athletic, but struggles at the point of attack

Undersized

Slow, but "a football guy"

Needs to be developed

While not athletic or great in coverage, he doesn't miss tackles

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

24 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Words and phrases used to describe said drafted guy:

Green

Raw

Athletic, but struggles at the point of attack

Undersized

Slow, but "a football guy"

Needs to be developed

While not athletic or great in coverage, he doesn't miss tackles

 

Yeah we need more “day 1 starter.... should play for a decade..... can play all 3 downs” descriptors.

[MWil23]

6 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Yeah we need more “day 1 starter.... should play for a decade..... can play all 3 downs” descriptors.

"A former five star prospect coming out of highschool"

"A former consensus All American from _________ (blue blood school)"

"Should be an anchor in the middle on all three downs"

"Able to rush the passer AND cover tight ends"

"He's a hybrid that can play anywhere in or outside of the box"

NO JOKE man, it's a reality!

[Kiwibrown]

3 hours ago, MWil23 said:

No doubt that scheme and personnel factors in comparable to a 3-4 vs. a 4-3, I will concede that.

But, comparatively speaking, the highest off ball LB that we've drafted going back to 1998 is, and I will post ALL of them:

2020: Jacob Phillips: 3rd (97)

2019: Takitaki: 3rd (80), Mack Wilson: 5th (155)

2018: Genard Avery: 5th (180)

2016: Joe Schobert: 3rd (99), Scooby Wright: 7th (250)

2015: Hayes Pullard: 7th (219)

2014: Kirksey: 3rd (71)

2012: James-Micah Johnson: 4th (120), Emmanuel Acho: 6th (204)

2009: Kaluka Maiva: 4th (104)

2008: Beau Bell: 4th (104)

2006: D'Quell Jackson: 2nd (34), Leon Williams: 4th (110)

2005: Nick Speegle: 6th, (176)

2003: Chaun Thompson: 2nd (52)

2002: Kevin Bentley: 4th (101), Ben Taylor: 4th (111)

 

 

 

Are linebackers high in the draft a luxury pick to some extent? 

As a position group, you need, qb, oline, dline, first before you can draft a linebacker. We have never had resolution to those groups. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

21 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

Are linebackers high in the draft a luxury pick to some extent? 

As a position group, you need, qb, oline, dline, first before you can draft a linebacker. We have never had resolution to those groups. 

I mean, they’re not as important as a QB or DE, but there’s no position that’s so devalued you can ignore it completely with talented players.  There’s no position group we’ve invested less in.