The offense is a Big Problem

[lavar703]

So, I get people are down on Haskins. Honestly he has not played well the first two weeks and he needs to improve but I have no idea how he can be expected to develop in this situation? With Scherff now out or he at least appears to be out for awhile, our OL is Christian, Martin, Rouillier, Schweitzer and Moses. That’s horrible. You simply cannot expect to be able to evaluate a QB who has almost no time to throw the ball. He can’t set his feet in a pocket and throw the ball more than maybe 5 times a game which is absurd. 
 

Outside of Terry McLaurin we have nothing. I love Sims Jr but he’s a JAG on most other teams. Inman is dreadful and Gandy Golden is a fourth round rookie. The TE situation is absolutely the worst in the league and Logan Thomas just isn’t the answer. Baugh gets no separation and Sprinkle doesn’t get on the field anymore. Rivera did the team a disservice by avoiding offensive weapons like the plague in the off-season and I’m tired of hearing about it being due to culture or building a locker room. You simply cannot win if you don’t have talent and we don’t. Also, this directly affects Haskins development as well. How can he improve without the tools to do so? 
 

Scott Turner seems lost so far. The offense sputters out of the gate as routes are constantly cut off short of the sticks. Nobody gets open or the OL breaks down. It’s hard to evaluate him as well due to the lack of talent so it’s not just Haskins this is hurting. He’s trying a lot of short passes to get Haskins in a rhythm and to keep him from getting batterer but it’s allowing defenses to just tee off because they don’t have to respect the down field game. 
 

Basically what I’m saying is going into this season the way they did, not improving the offensive talent at all and in some ways weakening it was detrimental to many aspects of this football team. It puts Haskins behind the 8 ball and you can’t evaluate what Turner can do as a play caller. Right now we’re giving Haskins the Patrick Ramsey treatment. Hopefully the kid can bounce back. 

[Thaiphoon]

17 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

So, I get people are down on Haskins. Honestly he has not played well the first two weeks and he needs to improve but I have no idea how he can be expected to develop in this situation? With Scherff now out or he at least appears to be out for awhile, our OL is Christian, Martin, Rouillier, Schweitzer and Moses. That’s horrible. You simply cannot expect to be able to evaluate a QB who has almost no time to throw the ball. He can’t set his feet in a pocket and throw the ball more than maybe 5 times a game which is absurd. 
 

Outside of Terry McLaurin we have nothing. I love Sims Jr but he’s a JAG on most other teams. Inman is dreadful and Gandy Golden is a fourth round rookie. The TE situation is absolutely the worst in the league and Logan Thomas just isn’t the answer. Baugh gets no separation and Sprinkle doesn’t get on the field anymore. Rivera did the team a disservice by avoiding offensive weapons like the plague in the off-season and I’m tired of hearing about it being due to culture or building a locker room. You simply cannot win if you don’t have talent and we don’t. Also, this directly affects Haskins development as well. How can he improve without the tools to do so? 
 

Scott Turner seems lost so far. The offense sputters out of the gate as routes are constantly cut off short of the sticks. Nobody gets open or the OL breaks down. It’s hard to evaluate him as well due to the lack of talent so it’s not just Haskins this is hurting. He’s trying a lot of short passes to get Haskins in a rhythm and to keep him from getting batterer but it’s allowing defenses to just tee off because they don’t have to respect the down field game. 
 

Basically what I’m saying is going into this season the way they did, not improving the offensive talent at all and in some ways weakening it was detrimental to many aspects of this football team. It puts Haskins behind the 8 ball and you can’t evaluate what Turner can do as a play caller. Right now we’re giving Haskins the Patrick Ramsey treatment. Hopefully the kid can bounce back. 

I'm grading the kid on a curve, for exactly what you've pointed out. Hard to evaluate him (without weighting things) and allowing for the poor quality around him. 

[offbyone]

Haskins is under a lot of pressure but , I think the "patrick ramsey treatment" is a reach.  Ramsey go fricking destroyed in that spurrier offense.   Beat on. 

Haskins is missing some stuff and certainly isn't struggling with ball placement.  But I also think guys are often covered tight.  When things opened up he looked a lot better.  

I wonder about turner, but I also notice as soon as the defense backs off the offense suddenly clicks, which makes me think he might be getting limited as much as say haskins.  Of course, in this case the defense backed off because they were playing a little more prevent, not because they were scared of our offense.  We definitely have a talent gap, so we need to find the ways of getting the defense on their heels.  They might have to force some stuff early.  I think they throw some bombs early.  Hell if we are going to have 3 and outs we might as well make them a little nervous in the process.  

Not sure what we do about oline.  Maybe call Donald Penn.  Chicken before the egg situation, but like the rest of the offense if we can get the running game working it would take pressure off.

Not really sure what options there are at improving the offense other than exploring a trade for a WR.

The running backs flashed but still not very impressed.  I don't think we have broke one big run.  Something needs to change there.  

Haskins' ball placement wasn't good, but still, not sure Logan Thomas is the guy.  Those out of reach of everyone else balls are what you want to see him pull in, that is the whole point of having a guy with that much length.  Not really a good upgrade option there, but I maybe rotate sprinkle in more.  

 

[e16bball]

I really can’t blame Scott Turner any more than I blame Haskins. 

They’ve given him nothing to work with. The same terrible cast of characters that you referenced in the context of what Haskins has to work with, except on top of that, he also has Haskins — a young QB with poor mechanics and no experience in his system who basically got nothing but a “virtual offseason” to try to get up to speed. He appears to be regressing thus far, and his bad habits are being illuminated by all the poor play around him. 

The poor OL play is scuttling a lot of calls right off the jump. When a run call does work and the line blocks it up, then we’re getting poor blocking on the perimeter by TEs and WRs, so it doesn’t pop for huge chunks. When the pass protection holds up, the WRs aren’t getting any separation so Haskins has extremely tight windows to try to fit balls into. And when the line holds up and the receivers are getting open, Haskins is just flat-out missing guys.

I just don’t know enough to say much about Turner at this point. But I do know you’d have to be a bona fide genius to consistently succeed with this unit on offense. I guess he’s not that, at least not yet.

Edited September 21, 2020 by e16bball

[e16bball]

Your overall point is well-taken, of course. 

What we’re seeing so far is the only thing a reasonable fan could have expected out of this offense. You put nothing in, you can’t expect to get anything out. Some of this was avoidable — particularly Geron Christian at LT — but they just decided to press forward stubbornly with their single-minded focus on “evaluating the young players.” Well, the evaluation appears to be that many of them aren’t prepared to be NFL starters. Go figure. Maybe there should have been a backup plan of some sort.

[ripsean21]

3 hours ago, e16bball said:

Your overall point is well-taken, of course. 

What we’re seeing so far is the only thing a reasonable fan could have expected out of this offense. You put nothing in, you can’t expect to get anything out. Some of this was avoidable — particularly Geron Christian at LT — but they just decided to press forward stubbornly with their single-minded focus on “evaluating the young players.” Well, the evaluation appears to be that many of them aren’t prepared to be NFL starters. Go figure. Maybe there should have been a backup plan of some sort.

I mean we did have a LT who simply didn’t want to be here understandably. But they wanted to completely evaluate this roster and I think they chose that approach when they realized Trent wasn’t going to be here maybe going all in on Cooper wasn’t the best idea. I think they were prepared for this and their learning what they have. Their not allowing fools gold to shine but Haskins is slowly improving. Is he close heck no but your seeing someone who can keep collected and isn’t complaining about these things. He has the upstairs part and I think we will work new players in and see what they have.

For better or for worse after this year we will know what we have and what potentially develops will show. But I also think finding out who can stick as backups and who is buying in and who isn’t was the first step. Alittle conservative but this offseason will be critical to trying to really grow this roster. The draft needs to be the key focus I would work whatever we have to get as much draft capital as we can. This is another deep class at spots we have big needs. 
 

I wouldn’t have a old days Snyder FA but this would be the year I really dial into where the value of our draft is going to more then likely be and I bring in some guys that can make impacts and also draft guys that I hope push those FA’s early. I’m happy to see this group not hold their heads down they lost to a talented team. We didn’t quit we made some adjustments the little things are at least showing. We are going to lose games. But the way we’re losing when we are I can handle. We could have lost to Philly and we fought back. We lost and it was clear we were gonna lose but they kept chipping that’s something the staff is going to notice.

[Thaiphoon]

Call me crazy, but aside from improving the line, I think better TE play is more important in this offense right now than a better #2 WR. We need someone who can get the tough catches on the opposing LBs like the other teams do to us. 

Give me a guy who is (not Logan Thomas - no one is scared of him) that teams have to worry about at TE on pass routes and can block like a demon on running plays. Outside of an improved OL, I think that gives us more bang for our buck.

[ripsean21]

27 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Call me crazy, but aside from improving the line, I think better TE play is more important in this offense right now than a better #2 WR. We need someone who can get the tough catches on the opposing LBs like the other teams do to us. 

Give me a guy who is (not Logan Thomas - no one is scared of him) that teams have to worry about at TE on pass routes and can block like a demon on running plays. Outside of an improved OL, I think that gives us more bang for our buck.

Your not crazy!!!! I’ve been saying for years a game changing TE is just as important as the #1 WR. Without them two you just can’t compete late in the playoffs. TE is a huge hole on this team and luckily there are about 7 this year that all have talent. I’m going to break that position down hard this year. I was all over last years class but outside of Trautman I didn’t like much. Albert O has ability but what is his mental makeup idk.

This year man I love what I’ve already seen from guys that weren’t even on my radar in live action that are jumping off the screen. I gotta say the way these last few drafts have fallen I believe this year could be our best overall draft haul for filling PON with BPA come draft time. I mean my dream round one is micha Parsons. He make this defense that complete unit. I pick him because there is one of the deepest OL groups in memory. Just like with Chase. You have bigger needs elsewhere but we will get a high caliber OL throughout. Along with TE so you go with that dude with your top pick which makes our defense what we all want it to become. Then just go out and get value on OL and TE and the pass catchers again this year. We’re in a great spot. 
 

we lose Smiths contract after this year if we’re smart and we can really make the moves around the guys I believe are showing they earned their keep and next year we really field a unit. But I am excited to see which OL do show we can play and win with. Personally I think C is good and between Charles and the SDST kid we will have a interior guy maybe two if lucky. We will see. As much as I want Parsons though if Sewell is there I pick him only because positional impact. Ultimately I think the player Sewell becomes here is slightly less then what Parsons would. But it’s close enough that Sewell should be the pick if we are indeed that high. I think with what we are showing with in season growth we’re probably 5-11 which puts us 7-11. Could be 5 or 6 and only 4 wins but I just I think we can have a real shot at Parsons where Sewell is realistically long gone

[MikeT14]

1 hour ago, Thaiphoon said:

Call me crazy, but aside from improving the line, I think better TE play is more important in this offense right now than a better #2 WR. We need someone who can get the tough catches on the opposing LBs like the other teams do to us. 

Give me a guy who is (not Logan Thomas - no one is scared of him) that teams have to worry about at TE on pass routes and can block like a demon on running plays. Outside of an improved OL, I think that gives us more bang for our buck.

Call me bias (that's fine I get it), but Logan Thomas has somewhat EXCEEDED my expectations this season so far. He doesn't have the speed to beat guys, but I think he's had some opportunities to make plays and, aside from some drops, I think Dwayne has left him in tough spots to finish the plays too. An upgrade is needed yes, but I am very comfortable with Thomas as #2 moving forward.  

[Thaiphoon]

46 minutes ago, MikeT14 said:

Call me bias (that's fine I get it), but Logan Thomas has somewhat EXCEEDED my expectations this season so far. He doesn't have the speed to beat guys, but I think he's had some opportunities to make plays and, aside from some drops, I think Dwayne has left him in tough spots to finish the plays too. An upgrade is needed yes, but I am very comfortable with Thomas as #2 moving forward.  

I'm fine with Thomas as our TE. Just not our #1. I'd love a 2 TE set if we could get a true #1 and watch there be mismatches in the secondary.

[ovfd55]

Watched a good portion of the 9ers Jets 1st half,and can't help but think of the improvement we would have if we Had Trent and Reed,but can't blame the current regime for that as Trent didn't want to be here and can't trust Jordan's inj history.

Think the shocking thing to me through 2 games ins the lack of misdirection,Screens,and designed quick passes,I expected alot more v routes from HBs breaking inwards at line as that what 9ers got big plays on instead we ran the on wheel routes what take time to get open and we don't have time for them to develop.Our WRs either suck at pick plays or we aren't calling them to get people quick seperation on routes.The thing that gave me most hope was in 4th Dewayne and Turner seemed to remember we have Terry on the roster and ran plays to get him the ball.

[ripsean21]

23 minutes ago, ovfd55 said:

Watched a good portion of the 9ers Jets 1st half,and can't help but think of the improvement we would have if we Had Trent and Reed,but can't blame the current regime for that as Trent didn't want to be here and can't trust Jordan's inj history.

Think the shocking thing to me through 2 games ins the lack of misdirection,Screens,and designed quick passes,I expected alot more v routes from HBs breaking inwards at line as that what 9ers got big plays on instead we ran the on wheel routes what take time to get open and we don't have time for them to develop.Our WRs either suck at pick plays or we aren't calling them to get people quick seperation on routes.The thing that gave me most hope was in 4th Dewayne and Turner seemed to remember we have Terry on the roster and ran plays to get him the ball.

I think Turner has very much kept the plays to try and see what we do have instead of maybe simplifying things to just keep Dwayne confident. He’s not the only evaluation and I think to not call those types of plays would hurt us. I was happy to see them focus on Terry as well because I feel like they’ve maybe respected Patrick P and Slay more then they needed too. I get giving them guys their due but Terry should get a volume of attempts more so then I think he had through the first 7 quarters.
 

But Dwayne has shown he isn’t really going to force too many passes so I get not trying to lock in when there’s a premier guy lined up against Terry. But the fact I see Terry winning against these guys is huge because he is showing he can win against a defensive scheme even if the ball isn’t coming his way.

[MikeT14]

To the "he needs time from the line" crowd:

 

 

[ovfd55]

2 minutes ago, MikeT14 said:

To the "he needs time from the line" crowd:

 

 

Could argue that in over 2 secs he been pressure and on the move when throwing which lowers his passing numbers.Being clean for over 2 secs is better then having ball for 2 secs and getting hit as throwing

[PARROTHEAD]

23 minutes ago, ovfd55 said:

Could argue that in over 2 secs he been pressure and on the move when throwing which lowers his passing numbers.Being clean for over 2 secs is better then having ball for 2 secs and getting hit as throwing

Hes had just as many clean pockets to throw as crowded. So it partly can be put on the pressure. But even when having time to set. Working through progressions and accuracy seem to be an issue. Not that theres anyone getting open to begin with.