The offense is a Big Problem

[HTTRDynasty]

Martin 👀

[RSkinGM]

10 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Martin 👀

Well, well well.  a surprise.

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[RSkinGM]

35 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I said it earlier . He held his own against a good pass rusher . Great post .

[Thaiphoon]

4 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Looking at this again. I agree with @RSkinGM.

I count maybe two plays where he had really bad snaps. Some definite technique improvement could be done, but in all, he did well.

I wonder what @naptownskinsfan has to say

[naptownskinsfan]

3 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

Looking at this again. I agree with @RSkinGM.

I count maybe two plays where he had really bad snaps. Some definite technique improvement could be done, but in all, he did well.

I wonder what @naptownskinsfan has to say

It's interesting to look at for sure, and I have to say, I didn't get a whole lot of chances to review anything beyond the game.  

Eye test looked good.  The Cardinals really tried to let Jones and Phillips beat Christian and Martin.  Jones tossed Christian around.  Martin held his own against Phillips, despite what was going on next to him.  

[e16bball]

On 9/23/2020 at 8:58 PM, lavar703 said:

think the biggest problem I have with Rivera’s approach is he seems willing to throw a year away of Haskins development to see if guys like Geron Christian and Marcus Baugh can play football.

Bingo. I’ve been trying to find a way to say this as concisely as you did, and I’m glad you managed to state it so clearly. All offseason, it felt like there was all this concern about “blocking” our young players, as if the key to this season was going to be getting the chance to evaluate guys like Kelvin Harmon, Steven Sims, Logan Thomas, Geron Christian, Wes Martin, etc. — but now, as these guys are either unavailable (Harmon) or in the process of proving to be JAGs at best (everyone else), the offense is absolutely bereft of talent. And it’s compromising our ability to evaluate the guy who is exponentially more important to the future of the franchise than any of these nobodies. 

Through two games (I know, I know, we need to be patient and let it play out), Haskins has been one of the worst QBs in the league. Arguably the very worst. Is that because he didn’t get an offseason to learn this new offense? Is it because he didn’t get an offseason to work on his glaring technical/fundamental issues with his new coaching staff? Is it because he has one of the league’s worst OLs? Is it because he has one of the league’s worst groups of weapons? Or is it because he just isn’t very good?

I don’t know the answer to that. I can’t tell if he’s playing poorly because he’s a poor player or because no one could play well under these circumstances. And admittedly, some of these circumstances they couldn’t control. But some they could. They could have put a more competent offense around Haskins, so they could get a better sense of whether there’s a chance he can break through to the next level or whether they need to cut bait if he has another mediocre or worse season. Right now it’s all clouded by the fact that we’re stuck “evaluating” about 8 positions on offense at the same time we’re trying to make a determination on our QB. 

[offbyone]

 

On 9/23/2020 at 5:58 PM, lavar703 said:

I think the biggest problem I have with Rivera’s approach is he seems willing to throw a year away of Haskins development to see if guys like Geron Christian and Marcus Baugh can play football. 

@e16bball post brought this to my attention.  I agree but I would also add, that Rivera made a huge miscalculation in all this.  The evaluation isn't even clear.  It is hard to evaluate these guys when defenses are not scared.  The running game is hard to evaluate.  The qb is hard to evaluate.  It is hard to evaluate individual players on the line because the man next to him affects his results.  So quality evaluation isn't even happening.

 

[ripsean21]

2 hours ago, e16bball said:

Bingo. I’ve been trying to find a way to say this as concisely as you did, and I’m glad you managed to state it so clearly. All offseason, it felt like there was all this concern about “blocking” our young players, as if the key to this season was going to be getting the chance to evaluate guys like Kelvin Harmon, Steven Sims, Logan Thomas, Geron Christian, Wes Martin, etc. — but now, as these guys are either unavailable (Harmon) or in the process of proving to be JAGs at best (everyone else), the offense is absolutely bereft of talent. And it’s compromising our ability to evaluate the guy who is exponentially more important to the future of the franchise than any of these nobodies. 

Through two games (I know, I know, we need to be patient and let it play out), Haskins has been one of the worst QBs in the league. Arguably the very worst. Is that because he didn’t get an offseason to learn this new offense? Is it because he didn’t get an offseason to work on his glaring technical/fundamental issues with his new coaching staff? Is it because he has one of the league’s worst OLs? Is it because he has one of the league’s worst groups of weapons? Or is it because he just isn’t very good?

I don’t know the answer to that. I can’t tell if he’s playing poorly because he’s a poor player or because no one could play well under these circumstances. And admittedly, some of these circumstances they couldn’t control. But some they could. They could have put a more competent offense around Haskins, so they could get a better sense of whether there’s a chance he can break through to the next level or whether they need to cut bait if he has another mediocre or worse season. Right now it’s all clouded by the fact that we’re stuck “evaluating” about 8 positions on offense at the same time we’re trying to make a determination on our QB. 

But if they don’t improve as the year goes on isn’t that an evaluation? If you don’t improve in any aspect that’s a tell. I don’t think there’s a hard line saying man he has to win honestly I think 6 wins is a great season and if we get there I’d recon that Haskins showed something he can work with along with clearly getting someone who can catch a pass besides Thomas and Terry. I’d assume they start to use Gibson through the air. I think they’ve very much kept the training wheels on. With our defense we should be close with teams that aren’t the Cardinals and deep teams on both sides. But if were around 3 wins solely because he did nothing to lose them that’s an evaluation. good leaders and players with his arm can make players better. Him improving as a decision maker as the season goes on would be evaluation. He has to grow. If he doesn’t grow then you can justify going another route. But if he does then we should have the cap and assets to work this draft to really build around him. I would not go ham in FA. But I would be cool with moving guys maybe we do like but that bro g value before they ultimately leave the year before get draft picks and go hand in this class theres a lot to like in this class where we have big needs

[lavar703]

30 minutes ago, ripsean21 said:

But if they don’t improve as the year goes on isn’t that an evaluation? If you don’t improve in any aspect that’s a tell. I don’t think there’s a hard line saying man he has to win honestly I think 6 wins is a great season and if we get there I’d recon that Haskins showed something he can work with along with clearly getting someone who can catch a pass besides Thomas and Terry. I’d assume they start to use Gibson through the air. I think they’ve very much kept the training wheels on. With our defense we should be close with teams that aren’t the Cardinals and deep teams on both sides. But if were around 3 wins solely because he did nothing to lose them that’s an evaluation. good leaders and players with his arm can make players better. Him improving as a decision maker as the season goes on would be evaluation. He has to grow. If he doesn’t grow then you can justify going another route. But if he does then we should have the cap and assets to work this draft to really build around him. I would not go ham in FA. But I would be cool with moving guys maybe we do like but that bro g value before they ultimately leave the year before get draft picks and go hand in this class theres a lot to like in this class where we have big needs

Yes and no. The issue is Haskins was a high draft choice and the guys he’s been gifted are 3rd rounder or later talents. Exactly one of those players is bordering elite in Terry McLaurin and the rest are either totally unknown i.e. Gibson or just guys we know at this point aren’t very good (Christian). Sims is a decent talent but we should’ve done something at TE, WR or kept AP at RB. It seems like they went out of their way to put Haskins in a bad situation and maybe that was the idea. See if he can thrive or not but I just don’t think that’s the way to go about things. 
 

What I think the reality of the situation is we’ll be drafting a QB next year. Rivera has zero ties to Haskins and considering the situation he was okay putting him in I frankly don’t think he cares about developing him. It’s depressing and it’s unfair to Haskins. Maybe he just flat out sucks but how can you possibly tell putting him in this situation? They could’ve signed Robby Anderson, Eric Ebron or traded Trent for OJ Howard instead of letting that deal fall through. Keeping AP probably would’ve helped Gibson as well. It’s like we’re an expansion team. 

[naptownskinsfan]

15 hours ago, e16bball said:

Bingo. I’ve been trying to find a way to say this as concisely as you did, and I’m glad you managed to state it so clearly. All offseason, it felt like there was all this concern about “blocking” our young players, as if the key to this season was going to be getting the chance to evaluate guys like Kelvin Harmon, Steven Sims, Logan Thomas, Geron Christian, Wes Martin, etc. — but now, as these guys are either unavailable (Harmon) or in the process of proving to be JAGs at best (everyone else), the offense is absolutely bereft of talent. And it’s compromising our ability to evaluate the guy who is exponentially more important to the future of the franchise than any of these nobodies. 

Through two games (I know, I know, we need to be patient and let it play out), Haskins has been one of the worst QBs in the league. Arguably the very worst. Is that because he didn’t get an offseason to learn this new offense? Is it because he didn’t get an offseason to work on his glaring technical/fundamental issues with his new coaching staff? Is it because he has one of the league’s worst OLs? Is it because he has one of the league’s worst groups of weapons? Or is it because he just isn’t very good?

I don’t know the answer to that. I can’t tell if he’s playing poorly because he’s a poor player or because no one could play well under these circumstances. And admittedly, some of these circumstances they couldn’t control. But some they could. They could have put a more competent offense around Haskins, so they could get a better sense of whether there’s a chance he can break through to the next level or whether they need to cut bait if he has another mediocre or worse season. Right now it’s all clouded by the fact that we’re stuck “evaluating” about 8 positions on offense at the same time we’re trying to make a determination on our QB. 

I guess I am just tired of the mediocrity.  Both of the teams I follow most- Washington football and the Orioles- have had a nasty habit in the past 20 years of spending and doing just enough to be average, maybe above average.  I am not counting the Orioles run from 2012-16 in that, but a lot of what came before, but signing a whole lot of relief pitchers just to say we had a top 10 payroll during some of those years was not doing it for me.  It kept us out of a position to draft at the top of the draft many years.  For Washington, it was spending a bunch of money and ignoring the draft under Gibbs, and then under Gruden we had some good offensive talent, but defense and coaching was clearly lacking and we weren't bad enough to nail down some top-flight talent in the draft.  

After seeing how teams in baseball have tanked their way to high-end talent, wins and losses don't matter that much to me right now.  If being really bad this year while we evaluate the guys in house gets us another top 5 pick this year, I'm fine with it.  We need some young, game-changing talent.  We got lucky to have Jonathan Allen and Montez Sweat be in positions where top 10 talents fell to us.  But aside from that, we are woefully missing talent at multiple positions.  I don't want to see us go back to the free-spending ways of old, and I would love to have the talent pipeline that our neighbors have in Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Baltimore.  Offense is a dumpster fire, but signing some FA solutions and getting to 6 wins doesn't mean as much to me as getting a top 3-5 pick and being in a position to draft a game-changing talent like Sewell, Chase, or even one of the QBs.  

While we are going to analyze what happens on tape, they are also analyzing what is going on in the practice field and the film room.  This was the worst possible off-season for everyone in a variety of ways, especially for a QB like Haskins.  But hell, we all know he was the pick of Danny and Bruce.  If Rivera is in a position to pick a new QB and does so, then we know he has authority here.  

The only thing I liked about the Rivera hire was that the Panthers seemed to do it right by building through the draft and the trenches, and build down the middle.  Given that he was the only constant through three GMs, I thought it reasonably certain that he had some personnel say there, so you can extrapolate their building and roster decisions here.  If this is indeed the direction we are moving, I am supportive of it. 

[ripsean21]

12 hours ago, lavar703 said:

Yes and no. The issue is Haskins was a high draft choice and the guys he’s been gifted are 3rd rounder or later talents. Exactly one of those players is bordering elite in Terry McLaurin and the rest are either totally unknown i.e. Gibson or just guys we know at this point aren’t very good (Christian). Sims is a decent talent but we should’ve done something at TE, WR or kept AP at RB. It seems like they went out of their way to put Haskins in a bad situation and maybe that was the idea. See if he can thrive or not but I just don’t think that’s the way to go about things. 
 

What I think the reality of the situation is we’ll be drafting a QB next year. Rivera has zero ties to Haskins and considering the situation he was okay putting him in I frankly don’t think he cares about developing him. It’s depressing and it’s unfair to Haskins. Maybe he just flat out sucks but how can you possibly tell putting him in this situation? They could’ve signed Robby Anderson, Eric Ebron or traded Trent for OJ Howard instead of letting that deal fall through. Keeping AP probably would’ve helped Gibson as well. It’s like we’re an expansion team. 

I want Haskins to grow up quick and take this team over and elevate this roster talent and become the guy. But he has to do it. Great players make others better and that is an evaluation. Russell made Seattle amazing with his legs and Lynch. He didn’t have a Terry and if used correctly throwing passes to Gibson could elevate the offense. Dwayne has to get the ball to these guys in position to make plays so if we take a QB high it’s because he did none of those things. But if he does we maybe still aren’t winning but we will be competing with this defense. If he does it then we’re going to get him a lot of help this offseason. This is a sink or shine opportunity it’s up to him to make something out of nothing

[e16bball]

13 hours ago, lavar703 said:

What I think the reality of the situation is we’ll be drafting a QB next year.

Unless something really substantial changes from what we’ve seen in the first two games — and obviously, that’s very very possible, and I hope it happens — I agree with this. We were 31st in offense last year (ahead of only the Jets), and through two weeks we’re 31st in offense this year (ahead of only the Jets). Haskins is dead last in ESPN’s QBR, dead last in NFL Next Gen Stats’ CPOE, and very close to last in PFF’s game grading thus far from what I understand. New coaching staffs tend to move on from QBs who’ve played like that.

That’s why I can’t get excited about the idea of essentially tanking for another top 3-5 pick, and the hope that it brings another elite talent, as @naptownskinsfan made reference to. I don’t believe it will be used on someone like Sewell or Chase to help build the quality of the offense around the current QB — I think it will be used to replace him. And, given that I think we’re likely to be more of a 4-5 win team than a 2-3 win team, it won’t be the generational talent in Lawrence. It will be a guy like Fields or Lance, with more questions and more development needed, lots of upside and lots of risk.

And the hamster wheel will begin to spin anew, with another young QB expected to step in and be the savior while being provided none of the tools he needs to accomplish this feat. 

DISCLAIMER: For anyone queueing up to call me a *Haskins hater* for this post, I feel the need to announce that I hate the idea of taking another QB in the upcoming draft. But that’s what I think is on course to happen at this moment. They set up the QB to fail, and so far he’s failing. 

[TKellion]

Much rather get offensive talent besides QB in the next draft if we are not in line for the best QB coming out.Oline,TE and  WR seem like immediate needs.Get the QB in the following draft if Haskins doesnt improve with legitimate weapons around him.They will have a ton of cap space to go with the draft.

[lavar703]

2 hours ago, ripsean21 said:

I want Haskins to grow up quick and take this team over and elevate this roster talent and become the guy. But he has to do it. Great players make others better and that is an evaluation. Russell made Seattle amazing with his legs and Lynch. He didn’t have a Terry and if used correctly throwing passes to Gibson could elevate the offense. Dwayne has to get the ball to these guys in position to make plays so if we take a QB high it’s because he did none of those things. But if he does we maybe still aren’t winning but we will be competing with this defense. If he does it then we’re going to get him a lot of help this offseason. This is a sink or shine opportunity it’s up to him to make something out of nothing

Russel Wilson had Golden Tate, Sidney Rice, Doug Baldwin, Zach Miller and Marshawn Lynch. He also had Okung at LT and Max Unger at center. The situation Wilson walked into is not comparable to this one. Not to mention a generational defense giving him short fields and the ball back repeatedly. 
 

I don’t think some fans understand just how much the deck is stacked against Haskins success. Save for the DL, this may be one of the most talent deficient rosters the league has had in a long time.