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PFF Grades


HTTRDynasty

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Just now, naptownskinsfan said:

I think someone confused the grades for Moreland and Darby IMO 

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Yeah, I dunno how Darby ranks that high and Moreland doesn't. He was the 3rd highest ranked defender last week. And this week his average falls to only better than Apke?

This is why I'm doubting PFF more and more on what the hell they are watching. 

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2 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Yeah, I dunno how Darby ranks that high and Moreland doesn't. He was the 3rd highest ranked defender last week. And this week his average falls to only better than Apke?

This is why I'm doubting PFF more and more on what the hell they are watching. 

Like I said, who are they, and what are their qualifications for doing this?  

In this case, I like sausage, but also want to see how it's made, and who is making it.  

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36 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

No one is vetting who is grading players for PFF as far as their football knowledge goes.  

That’s a common complaint, but it’s not true. 
 

Each game is also graded by a second PFF analyst independent of the first, and those grades are compared by a third, Senior Analyst, who rules on any differences between the two. These grades are verified by the Pro Coach Network, a group of former and current NFL coaches with over 700 combined years of NFL coaching experience, to get them as accurate as they can be.

From there, the grades are normalized to better account for game situation; this ranges from where a player lined up to the dropback depth of the quarterback or the length of time he had the ball in his hand and everything in between. They are finally converted to a 0-100 scale and appear in our Player Grades Tool.

Season-level grades aren’t simply an average of every game-grade a player compiles over a season, but rather factor in the duration at which a player performed at that level. Achieving a grade of 90.0 in a game once is impressive, doing it (12) times in a row is more impressive.

https://texastech.rivals.com/news/explaining-pff-s-grading-system

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1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

That’s a common complaint, but it’s not true. 
 

Each game is also graded by a second PFF analyst independent of the first, and those grades are compared by a third, Senior Analyst, who rules on any differences between the two. These grades are verified by the Pro Coach Network, a group of former and current NFL coaches with over 700 combined years of NFL coaching experience, to get them as accurate as they can be.

From there, the grades are normalized to better account for game situation; this ranges from where a player lined up to the dropback depth of the quarterback or the length of time he had the ball in his hand and everything in between. They are finally converted to a 0-100 scale and appear in our Player Grades Tool.

Season-level grades aren’t simply an average of every game-grade a player compiles over a season, but rather factor in the duration at which a player performed at that level. Achieving a grade of 90.0 in a game once is impressive, doing it (12) times in a row is more impressive.

https://texastech.rivals.com/news/explaining-pff-s-grading-system

And yet, Moreau and Darby are top 15 corners but Moreland is in the 60s.

Also, I'm curious how they turn these out in less than 24 hours if they are grading all 22 players on the field for every play if it is reviewed by two separate analysts and a third senior analyst.

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42 minutes ago, Woz said:

And yet, Moreau and Darby are top 15 corners but Moreland is in the 60s.

Also, I'm curious how they turn these out in less than 24 hours if they are grading all 22 players on the field for every play if it is reviewed by two separate analysts and a third senior analyst.

Am I the only one that saw Moreland getting constantly picked on last game?  Which is to be expected, going up against two HOFers. But it was not a good game for him. 
 

And it’s really not that hard to do the initial grading. You have teams of people grading 60 minutes of film over 24 hours. Not that impressive of an accomplishment honestly. 
 

Also, they adjust the grades throughout the week based on follow-up reviews, which usually lead to slight changes at most. For example, the former Bengals OL coach went through every PFF mark down in grades of his OL a couple seasons ago, of which there were about 600, and he only disagreed with 12 of them. 

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10 hours ago, Woz said:

And yet, Moreau and Darby are top 15 corners but Moreland is in the 60s.

Also, I'm curious how they turn these out in less than 24 hours if they are grading all 22 players on the field for every play if it is reviewed by two separate analysts and a third senior analyst.

This is why I'm now scratching my head at PFF's "Rankings". I'm sorry. From watching both games there's literally zero way he pans out (over both games) to be wayyyyyy lower than Darby and Moreau. 

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9 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Am I the only one that saw Moreland getting constantly picked on last game?  Which is to be expected, going up against two HOFers. But it was not a good game for him. 
 

And it’s really not that hard to do the initial grading. You have teams of people grading 60 minutes of film over 24 hours. Not that impressive of an accomplishment honestly. 
 

Also, they adjust the grades throughout the week based on follow-up reviews, which usually lead to slight changes at most. For example, the former Bengals OL coach went through every PFF mark down in grades of his OL a couple seasons ago, of which there were about 600, and he only disagreed with 12 of them. 

You sure did. They definitely tested him. When you have tall WRs, both potential HOFers against a small CB, you had better be throwing his way. And yet, Hop's TD came against Collins and was fairly quiet the rest of the game when he was guarded by Jimmy. He had some missed opportunities, to be sure. But since he was going against two HOF level WRs, I think he graded out okay IMHO. Certainly better than the other DBs. And since he was graded out the 3rd best defensive player after the first game, and now only better than Apke (graded over 2 games)? Something's not right in that calculation. That would mean he would've had a worse game than Apke in Week 2 to have him drop so far. And that just doesn't pass the eye test for me.

I'm interested, because it seems that the biggest measurement for PFF is catches allowed. But that is a misleading stat. I'd rather have the guy give up a 2 or 3 yard catch (many times saving the first like he did in the 4Q when they eventually went for it on 4th down) than the TD or a long 40 yard pass to put the other team into FG range. Catches are important, don't get me wrong. But as the primary determinant of a ranking, they don't mean much to me given that a screen is a catch. A 2 yard curl is a catch. I'll give those up all game long. 

All this to say, that I think he could've had a better game, but I agree with you that the 2 HOFers were going to get theirs regardless of the DB., but I'm still wanting to see the Game splits on rankings and how he dropped from 3rd best to 2nd worst in the span of the Arizona game.

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10 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Am I the only one that saw Moreland getting constantly picked on last game?  Which is to be expected, going up against two HOFers. But it was not a good game for him. 
 

And it’s really not that hard to do the initial grading. You have teams of people grading 60 minutes of film over 24 hours. Not that impressive of an accomplishment honestly. 
 

Also, they adjust the grades throughout the week based on follow-up reviews, which usually lead to slight changes at most. For example, the former Bengals OL coach went through every PFF mark down in grades of his OL a couple seasons ago, of which there were about 600, and he only disagreed with 12 of them. 

He gave up I think 4 of his 5 or 6 catches when lined up 10 or more off the line all those catches were for 10 -13 yard gains. So yes he had a volume of passes thrown at the WR he was lined up against but PFF can’t rank a DB simply off they are not actually breaking down what the defenders logical spot or responsibility is in a zone look. So yes if you base it on the fact he allowed 4or 5 catches on 7 zone defensive alignments yes he did bad. When more then likely they were in a cover 3 zone as his responsibility isn’t even the man in front of him yes he gave up some catches but also made the stops which is a big job for a guy his size against the guys running the route at him Hop and Fitz. 
 

Darby did look better this week then last because last week he was lost. Moreau looked about the same he is better being physical off the line. But the best cover CB and it’s not close is Moreland. Moreland in press coverage against Hop was a beautiful sight if you can rewatch focus on that matchup in that alignment because you’d say he looks like a first rounder and not a 6th. Also as Thai said before outside he’s at his best. Other then the volume of passes in off zone coverage man he was out there playing ball against the guys he was against

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8 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

You sure did. They definitely tested him. When you have tall WRs, both potential HOFers against a small CB, you had better be throwing his way. And yet, Hop's TD came against Collins and was fairly quiet the rest of the game when he was guarded by Jimmy. He had some missed opportunities, to be sure. But since he was going against two HOF level WRs, I think he graded out okay IMHO. Certainly better than the other DBs. And since he was graded out the 3rd best defensive player after the first game, and now only better than Apke (graded over 2 games)? Something's not right in that calculation. That would mean he would've had a worse game than Apke in Week 2 to have him drop so far. And that just doesn't pass the eye test for me.

I'm interested, because it seems that the biggest measurement for PFF is catches allowed. But that is a misleading stat. I'd rather have the guy give up a 2 or 3 yard catch (many times saving the first like he did in the 4Q when they eventually went for it on 4th down) than the TD or a long 40 yard pass to put the other team into FG range. Catches are important, don't get me wrong. But as the primary determinant of a ranking, they don't mean much to me given that a screen is a catch. A 2 yard curl is a catch. I'll give those up all game long. 

All this to say, that I think he could've had a better game, but I agree with you that the 2 HOFers were going to get theirs regardless of the DB., but I'm still wanting to see the Game splits on rankings and how he dropped from 3rd best to 2nd worst in the span of the Arizona game.

Yeah, I don't think he should have been downgraded that drastically either.  They allow you to see the grades on a game by game basis, but you need a premium subscription, which I'm not gonna pay for.

1941920847_ScreenShot2020-09-22at5_04_11

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@Thaiphoon

But taking a look at Pro Football Reference, here is how the 3 CBs stack up in their advanced metrics tables:

Fabian Moreau

1938224976_ScreenShot2020-09-22at5_08_42

Ronald Darby

1104580853_ScreenShot2020-09-22at5_08_51

Jimmy Moreland

1593886848_ScreenShot2020-09-22at5_08_35

 

Looks like they all performed worse in the second game than the first, judging by their passer ratings allowed.

As it specifically relates to Jimmy, the fact that he allowed 11 completions at an 85% rate probably weighs pretty heavily in the PFF grading, even though it was only at 6 yards per completion.  I'm also pretty sure the 2 missed tackles didn't help.

 

Edited by HTTRDynasty
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42 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

@Thaiphoon

But taking a look at Pro Football Reference, here is how the 3 CBs stack up in their advanced metrics tables:

Fabian Moreau

1938224976_ScreenShot2020-09-22at5_08_42

Ronald Darby

1104580853_ScreenShot2020-09-22at5_08_51

Jimmy Moreland

1593886848_ScreenShot2020-09-22at5_08_35

 

Looks like they all performed worse in the second game than the first, judging by their passer ratings allowed.

As it specifically relates to Jimmy, the fact that he allowed 11 completions at an 85% rate probably weighs pretty heavily in the PFF grading, even though it was only at 6 yards per completion.  I'm also pretty sure the 2 missed tackles didn't help.

 

Yeah, makes sense, I guess. I mean I figured that Hop and Fitz would be getting a ton of balls thrown his way given the height mismatch. The 2 missed tackles definitely didn't help. He's a pretty willing, and sure, tackler so that was not characteristic of his play.

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1 minute ago, Thaiphoon said:

Yeah, makes sense, I guess. I mean I figured that Hop and Fitz would be getting a ton of balls thrown his way given the height mismatch. The 2 missed tackles definitely didn't help. He's a pretty willing, and sure, tackler so that was not characteristic of his play.

Agreed.  

Teams seem to be picking on him early, which is to be expected given his height and draft pedigree.  But I think Jimmy has held his own, especially given his competition so far.  I would feel comfortable with him as our starting CB going forward based on what I've seen so far.

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On 9/22/2020 at 11:12 AM, Thaiphoon said:

But as the primary determinant of a ranking, they don't mean much to me given that a screen is a catch. A 2 yard curl is a catch. I'll give those up all game long. 

Provided that your defense prevents significant YAC, yes. If the receiver turns a 2 yard curl into a 8 yard gain, that doesn't help one bit.

The open field tackling seems a bit better? But I wonder if that's just me looking for silver linings.

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On 9/22/2020 at 8:14 PM, HTTRDynasty said:

@Thaiphoon

But taking a look at Pro Football Reference, here is how the 3 CBs stack up in their advanced metrics tables:

Fabian Moreau

1938224976_ScreenShot2020-09-22at5_08_42

Ronald Darby

1104580853_ScreenShot2020-09-22at5_08_51

Jimmy Moreland

1593886848_ScreenShot2020-09-22at5_08_35

 

Looks like they all performed worse in the second game than the first, judging by their passer ratings allowed.

As it specifically relates to Jimmy, the fact that he allowed 11 completions at an 85% rate probably weighs pretty heavily in the PFF grading, even though it was only at 6 yards per completion.  I'm also pretty sure the 2 missed tackles didn't help.

 

Which is odd, since both Philadelphia and Arizona are seemingly targeting Darby on deep balls with high regularity based on the DADOT (average depth of defender on target, regardless of completion success) of over 20+. Moreland was targeted 13 times, but only at an average depth of 3.5 yards. Yes, the 50 YAC yards needs to come down, but I still don't see how that translates to such a wide disparity.

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37 minutes ago, Woz said:

Provided that your defense prevents significant YAC, yes. If the receiver turns a 2 yard curl into a 8 yard gain, that doesn't help one bit.

The open field tackling seems a bit better? But I wonder if that's just me looking for silver linings.

I've noticed the tackling too.  Disciplined teams focusing on the fundamentals like Rivera does make those kind of plays.  

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