Week two Aints... Good, bad, ugly

[ronjon1990]

5 hours ago, agarcia34 said:

Jacobs such a great leader for such a young player. Love how he told the rookie guard time to be a man. 
 

I would trade Mack every time over and over for Jacobs. 

Idk if I'd go that far. Jacobs is great, but Murray and Lynch were also productive in our O. Jacobs level? No. But productive. I think we could have plugged another starting level RB into the offense and been alright. 

Heck, since the Jacobs pick, here's a list of the guys we could've had: Miles Sanders (2.53), Darrell Henderson (3.70), David Montgomery (3.73), Devin Singletary (3.74), Alexander Mattison (3.102), Benny Snell Jr (4.122), Tony Pollard (4.128). It's not all of the RBs, but we've seen all of these guys enough to safely say I think all of them could've been 1000 yd rushers behind our O-line. Don't get me wrong, I love Jacobs now and don't want to let him go. I don't ever like letting proven talent go because it's so hard to replace. I think we could've been in a similar situation with another RB taken much later though, and possibly even taken Jacobs later. RBs just weren't prized targets in the 2019 Draft, as we can see.

The FO made the right pick with him if he was who they wanted. That pick certainly panned out. But I wouldn't say he was the only player that could have his production on this team thus far. 

We've been absolutely putrid on D since Mack left. And we're STILL trying to replace his impact, especially in the front 7. The only player we have on the D that comes close is Abram, but we can't just keep him blitzing and playing close to the LOS every single play. 

For me, it's still Mack > what we wound up getting for him when you factor in who we could have gotten with our original picks while keeping him. I hated the 2019 Draft for that reason. Yea, Jacobs and Abram arw studs. I still wholeheartedly believe we didn't need 3 first round picks to wind up with Ferrell, Jacobs, and Abram though. Moot point overall I guess. But that's where I'm at with it.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by ronjon1990

[drfrey13]

4 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Meh. In 2016 we ranked dead last in sacks despite having Mack on the edge. We also ranked 26th in yards allowed and 20th in points allowed. Carr led us to 7 4th quarter comebacks and was a front runner to be MVP before he got hurt. 

You can not honestly tell me you are going to place the defensive shortcomings on Mack's shoulders.  Also of those 7 comeback drives Carr had how many times did he leave more than enough time for the opposing team to drive back down the field and win?  The defense had to hold most of those games.  They also had to overcome KNJ.  There was a reason Mack was defensive player of the year that year.

[NYRaider]

3 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

You can not honestly tell me you are going to place the defensive shortcomings on Mack's shoulders.  Also of those 7 comeback drives Carr had how many times did he leave more than enough time for the opposing team to drive back down the field and win?  The defense had to hold most of those games.  They also had to overcome KNJ.  There was a reason Mack was defensive player of the year that year.

But there's no way that you can say our success that season was more so because of Mack than Carr. We were 10-1 in games that we scored 27+ points and 2-3 in the games that we didn't. Our offense was the reason we won 12 games, with Carr being the biggest and most important factor in that. 

[drfrey13]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

But there's no way that you can say our success that season was more so because of Mack than Carr. We were 10-1 in games that we scored 27+ points and 2-3 in the games that we didn't. Our offense was the reason we won 12 games, with Carr being the biggest and most important factor in that. 

Without Mack that defense gives up a lot more points and Carr sees the field a lot less.  We also would be close to 0 in turnover differential.  There were more QBs that could have duplicated Carr than DEs that would have duplicated Mack.  This is just my opinion and we win very few games if either is not there.  I just think Mack was more important and had to overcome poor coaching and almost zero talent around him.  

LDE	Jihad Ward	22	Rook	13	0.0 sacks, 0 interceptions, 1 fumble recovered	Oakland Raiders / 2nd / 44th pick / 2016
LDT	Stacy McGee	26	3	9	2.5 sacks, 0 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered	Oakland Raiders / 6th / 205th pick / 2013
RDT	Dan Williams	29	6	11	0.5 sacks, 0 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered	Arizona Cardinals / 1st / 26th pick / 2010
RDE	Khalil Mack*+	25	2	16	11.0 sacks, 1 interception, 3 fumbles recovered	Oakland Raiders / 1st / 5th pick / 2014
LLB	Bruce Irvin	29	4	16	7.0 sacks, 0 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered	Seattle Seahawks / 1st / 15th pick / 2012
MLB	Perry Riley	28	6	11		Washington Redskins / 4th / 103rd pick / 2010
RLB	Malcolm Smith	27	5	14	0.0 sacks, 1 interception, 1 fumble recovered	Seattle Seahawks / 7th / 242nd pick / 2011
LCB	David Amerson	25	3	15	0.0 sacks, 2 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered	Washington Redskins / 2nd / 51st pick / 2013
RCB	Sean Smith	29	7	15	0.0 sacks, 2 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered	Miami Dolphins / 2nd / 61st pick / 2009
SS	Karl Joseph	23	Rook	9	0.0 sacks, 1 interception, 1 fumble recovered	Oakland Raiders / 1st / 14th pick / 2016
FS	Reggie Nelson*	33	9	16	0.0 sacks, 5 interceptions, 2 fumbles recovered	Jacksonville Jaguars / 1st / 21st pick / 2007

 

You tell how many of those players you would have replaced if you were GM?  We would have been last in points and yards allowed without Mack.

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, drfrey13 said:

Without Mack that defense gives up a lot more points and Carr sees the field a lot less.  We also would be close to 0 in turnover differential.  There were more QBs that could have duplicated Carr than DEs that would have duplicated Mack.  This is just my opinion and we win very few games if either is not there.  I just think Mack was more important and had to overcome poor coaching and almost zero talent around him.  

He overcame zero talent around him and we still had literally the worst pass rush in the league and one of the worst defenses in the league overall. As I said before we were 10-1 when we scored over 27 points and we were 2-3 when we didn't. Mack was impactful for sure but Carr was the driving force for our team success that year. Carr's play declined the following season and we fell from 7th in scoring offense to 23rd. The defense was actually slightly better in 2017, Mack produced at the same level, and we had a better pass rush overall. So why is that we went 6-10 in 2017 and 12-4 in 2016? Since Mack was the most important piece on that 2016 team and produced at the same level in 2017 on a better defense, why didn't we replicate the same success? 

[Darbsk]

10 hours ago, agarcia34 said:

Jacobs such a great leader for such a young player. Love how he told the rookie guard time to be a man. 
 

I would trade Mack every time over and over for Jacobs. 

 

9 hours ago, agarcia34 said:

I wouldn’t call Mack a once in a generation type player. He’s elite without a doubt. With Gruden I would call RB a elite position for his offense and without a RB like Jacobs. This offense is nothing. Just my two cents 

But RBs are easier to find and much, much cheaper to sign in FA than an elite DE. Love Jacobs but his position is much easier to fill so despite being superb I'd always go with the DE. 

[Darbsk]

6 hours ago, G said:

Still could of drafted Jacobs and kept Mack. RB's weren't highly valued that year but he's been worth the #4 we used on Ferrell no doubt. Team MVP

Mack was able to create havoc as the only player a coach even mentioned. The TEAM sucked on D but Mack and Carr we're on point so it didn't matter.

Exactly, Mack excelled despite the lack of talent around him. The pass rush in 2018 was a prime example, without Mack it was downright embarrassing, among the worst ever. Crosby, Hurst, Hankins, Key would all be much better and effective right now with Mack being the one schemed around and taking the attention of OCs.

The Cooper trade I understand and think made sense fir both teams but Mack I will never agree with. Its a moot point of course but in a perfect world trade back from 4 and we could have had Jacobs (who I love), Abram (who has really grown on me) plus another guy like Metcalf or Sweat or Brown. Oh well, we can all play the hindsight game I guess 😁😁😁

[drfrey13]

13 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Exactly, Mack excelled despite the lack of talent around him. The pass rush in 2018 was a prime example, without Mack it was downright embarrassing, among the worst ever. Crosby, Hurst, Hankins, Key would all be much better and effective right now with Mack being the one schemed around and taking the attention of OCs.

The Cooper trade I understand and think made sense fir both teams but Mack I will never agree with. Its a moot point of course but in a perfect world trade back from 4 and we could have had Jacobs (who I love), Abram (who has really grown on me) plus another guy like Metcalf or Sweat or Brown. Oh well, we can all play the hindsight game I guess 😁😁😁

I would say we are playing the hindsight game but the are some in here who have called this, except who was picked, since the trade happened.  I was angry that we signed Carr before we thought about Mack.  We should have extended him as soon as we had a chance.  Would have been a few million cheaper per year and our defense would be so much better if we traded out Ferrell for Mack.  To make the money work we do not make other high priced signings.  Not many of those have worked out for us lately anyways.  Carr might actually perform better in 2018 and 2019.  Now I'm playing the hindsight game.

[Humble_Beast]

On 9/23/2020 at 10:47 PM, ronjon1990 said:

Idk if I'd go that far. Jacobs is great, but Murray and Lynch were also productive in our O. Jacobs level? No. But productive. I think we could have plugged another starting level RB into the offense and been alright. 

Heck, since the Jacobs pick, here's a list of the guys we could've had: Miles Sanders (2.53), Darrell Henderson (3.70), David Montgomery (3.73), Devin Singletary (3.74), Alexander Mattison (3.102), Benny Snell Jr (4.122), Tony Pollard (4.128). It's not all of the RBs, but we've seen all of these guys enough to safely say I think all of them could've been 1000 yd rushers behind our O-line. Don't get me wrong, I love Jacobs now and don't want to let him go. I don't ever like letting proven talent go because it's so hard to replace. I think we could've been in a similar situation with another RB taken much later though, and possibly even taken Jacobs later. RBs just weren't prized targets in the 2019 Draft, as we can see.

The FO made the right pick with him if he was who they wanted. That pick certainly panned out. But I wouldn't say he was the only player that could have his production on this team thus far. 

We've been absolutely putrid on D since Mack left. And we're STILL trying to replace his impact, especially in the front 7. The only player we have on the D that comes close is Abram, but we can't just keep him blitzing and playing close to the LOS every single play. 

For me, it's still Mack > what we wound up getting for him when you factor in who we could have gotten with our original picks while keeping him. I hated the 2019 Draft for that reason. Yea, Jacobs and Abram arw studs. I still wholeheartedly believe we didn't need 3 first round picks to wind up with Ferrell, Jacobs, and Abram though. Moot point overall I guess. But that's where I'm at with it.

 

 

to be honest would could have won the mack trade. we just need Ferrell, Arnette, Abram to be the real deal. We already wasted the cap space on Williams, Joyner. Probably wouldn't have drafted Ferrell if we had Mack. Jacobs was from the Cooper deal if I'm not mistaken