Trade Targets?

[vegas492]

17 hours ago, Green19 said:

But I also think there is argument to be made if the smiths and Clark return to last year’s glory this defense will be good enough to win a championship...

If my aunt had nuts, she'd be my uncle.

Sadly, I do not feel like you do.  It's not about the players, it is about the scheme and mentality.  We aren't outhitting or out scheming anyone.  Wish I felt differently.

[skibrett15]

I do think the ILBs and off ball people are getting too free of a pass here

[Green19]

1 hour ago, vegas492 said:

If my aunt had nuts, she'd be my uncle.

Sadly, I do not feel like you do.  It's not about the players, it is about the scheme and mentality.  We aren't outhitting or out scheming anyone.  Wish I felt differently.

I guess my idea is if the smiths and Clark start to consistently generate pressure like last year... the numbers and the feel of the defense will be different for most.

Last year GB was one of the best pressure defenses... I think I saw a stat saying they are currently the worst right now. Pressure will cause offensive mistakes and turnovers.

It’s just hard to know why they went from being so good at it, to so bad. And to everyone’s point maybe Pettine needs to scheme and blitz more to jump start them.

On the plus... they force many 3 and outs and they don’t get beat deep.

[vegas492]

17 minutes ago, Green19 said:

I guess my idea is if the smiths and Clark start to consistently generate pressure like last year... the numbers and the feel of the defense will be different for most.

Last year GB was one of the best pressure defenses... I think I saw a stat saying they are currently the worst right now. Pressure will cause offensive mistakes and turnovers.

It’s just hard to know why they went from being so good at it, to so bad. And to everyone’s point maybe Pettine needs to scheme and blitz more to jump start them.

On the plus... they force many 3 and outs and they don’t get beat deep.

That's too many "ifs" for something to really work out.  And it isn't the Smiths, it is the guy calling the defense that is the issue.

Could also be COVID.  This has been a strange year.  Offenses seemed to be ahead of the defenses early.  From the little "other" NFL games I've watched, I feel like the defenses are starting to catch up.  Haven't felt like ours is, though.

Regarding how it went from so good to so bad....my personal opinion is attitude.  They had an attitude last year.  The Bears and Vikings game last year were clear examples where we outhit and outhustled the other team.  It was so much fun to watch.

This year?  I don't see that same intensity.  

[Refugee]

21 minutes ago, Green19 said:

It’s just hard to know why they went from being so good at it, to so bad. And to everyone’s point maybe Pettine needs to scheme and blitz more to jump start them.

O coordinators have more tape to scheme against what we were doing last year, mainly seeing we can't set a decent edge and play overly aggressive there.  I can't say if that's player or scheme but it has to be corrected

Another huge difference is the caliber of QB we faced last year. Last week and this week we should look great, but let's see when we play some vets who don't get rattled with a little pressure and trust their game plan.

[Mazrimiv]

How much more time needs to pass before Gary can officially be labeled a bust?  I wanted to believe, but he's flashed very little to date.  As far as that goes, I'm not convinced Savage is much better.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Mazrimiv

[PACKRULE]

8 minutes ago, Mazrimiv said:

How much more time needs to pass before Gary can officially be labeled a bust?  I wanted to believe, but he's flashed very little to date.  As far as that goes, I'm not convinced Savage is much better.

More than this...........not like anyone else on this Elite Unit is playing at a probowl level. The only and i mean only exception is Alexander. No front 7 guys are playing well which i put all on coaching as most others do.

 

[Green19]

1 hour ago, vegas492 said:

That's too many "ifs" for something to really work out.  And it isn't the Smiths, it is the guy calling the defense that is the issue.

Could also be COVID.  This has been a strange year.  Offenses seemed to be ahead of the defenses early.  From the little "other" NFL games I've watched, I feel like the defenses are starting to catch up.  Haven't felt like ours is, though.

Regarding how it went from so good to so bad....my personal opinion is attitude.  They had an attitude last year.  The Bears and Vikings game last year were clear examples where we outhit and outhustled the other team.  It was so much fun to watch.

This year?  I don't see that same intensity.  

So would you say Z and specifically Preston have been every bit as good as last year? 

this seemed to be a chicken or egg argument. Who is to blame? I think it’s likely both. Pettine isn’t helping his guys but it could be that he trust them from last season to get the job done... and they haven’t.

His first year pressure wasn’t an issue when he had fackrell as his main guy. Last year he was given the smiths so he didn’t blitz. I think this year he is waiting and trusting the smiths and Gary to round into shape.

And attitude might be something... been saying for weeks now that Z isn’t his normal energetic self. It’s really obvious in press availability.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Green19

[Joe]

@Green19 I think @vegas492 has given us the be-all-end-all argument here and hits on everything correctly; and I don't say that because I agree. 

Look, the fact is that pressures are all fine and dandy. You can have the #1 pass defense in the leagues with 3 or 4 bonafide EDGE guys who can do it all, it's what happens between those players that's going to make your defense a nightmare. I look at how Baltimore and Pittsburgh have consistently put out excellent defenses year in and year out and it's because they focus on developing their IDL and neither of them have traditionally had that Aaron Donald or Kenny Clark type who you always have to keep an eye on the entire game. We don't do that and we haven't done that in years. That starts with the DC and if we developed our DL the way we've developed our OL we would be undefeated right now.

[vegas492]

1 hour ago, Mazrimiv said:

How much more time needs to pass before Gary can officially be labeled a bust?  I wanted to believe, but he's flashed very little to date.  As far as that goes, I'm not convinced Savage is much better.

Let's see, he's on a 4 year deal with a 5'th year option.

Gotta give them both another year and a half.

Early results are not promising on either one yet.  But, there is reason to hope, as they have both flashed.  Just isn't consistent.

[vegas492]

38 minutes ago, Green19 said:

So would you say Z and specifically Preston have been every bit as good as last year? 

this seemed to be a chicken or egg argument. Who is to blame? I think it’s likely both. Pettine isn’t helping his guys but it could be that he trust them from last season to get the job done... and they haven’t.

His first year pressure wasn’t an issue when he had fackrell as his main guy. Last year he was given the smiths so he didn’t blitz. I think this year he is waiting and trusting the smiths and Gary to round into shape.

And attitude might be something... been saying for weeks now that Z isn’t his normal energetic self. It’s really obvious in press availability.

Fackrell had darned few pressures.  Look it up.  His sack to pressure ratio was insane that one year and ultimately unsustainable.  Let's not pretend like he pressured the quarterback often.  He did it infrequently, but when it happened, the QB ended up on the ground.

But to your point...that year Pettine did scheme up pressure.  And I think we knew that was the plan.  And it was said over and over how he watched some different players to fit his scheme on the edge.  Which we went out and got.  And they produced.  This year?  I don't know what changed.  But something did.  To me it looks like Pettine doesn't trust his secondary.  But that is absurd to me given what we have for players back there.  But it seems like everything is set up to protect against the big play and be ultra conservative.  And that is killing the defensive intensity and mentality.

That or we are really underestimating the intangibles that Blake Martinez brought to the defensive side of the ball.

Edited November 10, 2020 by vegas492

[Green19]

13 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Fackrell had darned few pressures.  Look it up.  His sack to pressure ratio was insane that one year and ultimately unsustainable.  Let's not pretend like he pressured the quarterback often.  He did it infrequently, but when it happened, the QB ended up on the ground.

But to your point...that year Pettine did scheme up pressure.  And I think we knew that was the plan.  And it was said over and over how he watched some different players to fit his scheme on the edge.  Which we went out and got.  And they produced.  This year?  I don't know what changed.  But something did.  To me it looks like Pettine doesn't trust his secondary.  But that is absurd to me given what we have for players back there.  But it seems like everything is set up to protect against the big play and be ultra conservative.  And that is killing the defensive intensity and mentality.

That or we are really underestimating the intangibles that Blake Martinez brought to the defensive side of the ball.

Ah. I think we arent getting the production out of the big names, Z/Preston/Clark specifically.

I think last year they played similar, in not trying to get beat deep. pettine always talks about he focus on the pass because that’s the quickest way to lose. I think he always game plan to protect the secondary... regardless, don’t think that has changed.

The difference is the production in the front seven, mostly pressure. I mean run defense will be what it is. This team is built to get a lead on offense and have the defense rush the passer. They aren’t do the latter.

[vegas492]

1 minute ago, Green19 said:

Ah. I think we arent getting the production out of the big names, Z/Preston/Clark specifically.

I think last year they played similar, in not trying to get beat deep. pettine always talks about he focus on the pass because that’s the quickest way to lose. I think he always game plan to protect the secondary... regardless, don’t think that has changed.

The difference is the production in the front seven, mostly pressure. I mean run defense will be what it is. This team is built to get a lead on offense and have the defense rush the passer. They aren’t do the latter.

I'd have to go look at games last year to see the secondary alignment now versus then.  And frankly?  I'm not doing that.

If I remember correctly, we didn't really play this far off the receivers this often.  Savage wasn't that deep, that often.  Heck, Savage was in the middle of the field 10 yards off the LOS against the Bears and Vikes in those games.  He was flashing big time talent in there.

And it's one thing to protect your secondary, it's another thing to be in a pseudo prevent for most of the game.

I agree about the difference on the DL.  I don't feel like we've gotten anything out of Clark yet.  Especially as compared to last year.  Injury has a lot to do with that.

[Les Punting]

8 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

But to your point...that year Pettine did scheme up pressure.  And I think we knew that was the plan.  And it was said over and over how he watched some different players to fit his scheme on the edge.  Which we went out and got.  And they produced.  This year?  I don't know what changed.  But something did.  To me it looks like Pettine doesn't trust his secondary.  But that is absurd to me given what we have for players back there.  But it seems like everything is set up to protect against the big play and be ultra conservative.  And that is killing the defensive intensity.

You've got that right, Pettine doesn't seem to trust his secondary. Should he? To be realistic, GB has one top CB (Alexander), one solid safety (Amos) and what else? Which other players are proficient enough in coverage to encourage more aggression? King was adequate but he's missed the last 4 games. The next man up has been Jackson, who doesn't inspire any confidence with his unpolished game. He's a guest. If I'm an opposing OC and GB starts consistently bringing pressure I'd target Jackson 20 times and make him famous. 

When King gets back in the lineup we'll likely see more pressure. Until then, a conservative approach seems justified.

[Green19]

5 hours ago, Joe said:

@Green19 I think @vegas492 has given us the be-all-end-all argument here and hits on everything correctly; and I don't say that because I agree. 

Look, the fact is that pressures are all fine and dandy. You can have the #1 pass defense in the leagues with 3 or 4 bonafide EDGE guys who can do it all, it's what happens between those players that's going to make your defense a nightmare. I look at how Baltimore and Pittsburgh have consistently put out excellent defenses year in and year out and it's because they focus on developing their IDL and neither of them have traditionally had that Aaron Donald or Kenny Clark type who you always have to keep an eye on the entire game. We don't do that and we haven't done that in years. That starts with the DC and if we developed our DL the way we've developed our OL we would be undefeated right now.

The DC that is only in his 3rd year? In his 2nd year with his 2nd HC regime? Compared to Pitt and Balt that are like the longest tenured coaching staffs? Plus with a year with no offseason due to covid?

Look I’m not happy with the defense in general either, but Pettine hasn’t reached Caper’s level yet where he has a decade of avg to poor defense.

Also who says they aren’t developing? I look at the contract they gave Lowry, clearly at the time they felt he was ascending/developing. Is it Pettine fault that hasn’t happened? Or was it a miss on the evaluation of the player by the coaching staff and front office? Or is it just straight Lowry’s fault for being bad? Clark has clearly developed under Pettine. I would say Keke has too for a second year guy. Dline takes time to develop. It’s rare guys just come in as rookies and dominate. More so when all the talent is late rounders or undrafted guys sans Clark and Adams.

My argument on pass rushers comes from listening to Pettine in press conferences. You, Vegas, and everyone on this board can have a certain philosophy for how to play and build a defense. Those philosophies aren’t being implemented though, Pettine’s is. Everyone goes crazy over how Pettine doesn’t play base... yet he has talked about what he is most focused on, not getting beat deep via the pass. He has stated passing gets you beat faster then a team running it down your throat. He clearly cares more about passing defense than run defense, and shows it in how he goes about his job.

Again, you and others can disagree and think Pettine is a moron for having that view. But it’s clear this team wants to play a certain way on defense. And the bigger issue this year is it’s not doing what it’s built for... applying pressure. Which was my point. When this team starts to heat up on getting after the QB I think everyone will feel better about the defense.

Until 1 of the 5 teams that are built to be a dominate run team in the league, eats this defense alive.

Its a matchup league, GB matches well with 85% of the league... the other 15% not so much. Last year GB was unfortunately matched up against a bad team for them in the nfc championship. This year it doesn’t seem like GB will have to worry about that until the super bowl, if they make it... as most of the bad match ups are in the AFC for the packers.