vegas492 Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 17 hours ago, Les Punting said: You've got that right, Pettine doesn't seem to trust his secondary. Should he? To be realistic, GB has one top CB (Alexander), one solid safety (Amos) and what else? Which other players are proficient enough in coverage to encourage more aggression? King was adequate but he's missed the last 4 games. The next man up has been Jackson, who doesn't inspire any confidence with his unpolished game. He's a guest. If I'm an opposing OC and GB starts consistently bringing pressure I'd target Jackson 20 times and make him famous. When King gets back in the lineup we'll likely see more pressure. Until then, a conservative approach seems justified. True. But we were conservative in the secondary even with King back there. If you can't make it work with a high second round pick at one corner, a first round pick at the other corner, a highly paid safety and a first round pick at the other safety, well, you will never make any secondary work. If you want to cover up for Jackson, it's easy to do. You can let a safety or linebacker shade that side and offer underneath help, or over the top help. Jaire doesn't need much help, and Sullivan is proving he doesn't need a lot either. And at the end of the day, we are 6-2. So I call this a First World NFL problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 13 hours ago, Green19 said: My argument on pass rushers comes from listening to Pettine in press conferences. You, Vegas, and everyone on this board can have a certain philosophy for how to play and build a defense. Those philosophies aren’t being implemented though, Pettine’s is. Everyone goes crazy over how Pettine doesn’t play base... yet he has talked about what he is most focused on, not getting beat deep via the pass. He has stated passing gets you beat faster then a team running it down your throat. He clearly cares more about passing defense than run defense, and shows it in how he goes about his job. Again, you and others can disagree and think Pettine is a moron for having that view. But it’s clear this team wants to play a certain way on defense. And the bigger issue this year is it’s not doing what it’s built for... applying pressure. Which was my point. When this team starts to heat up on getting after the QB I think everyone will feel better about the defense. You bring up valid points. Here are their counterarguments. Is there a difference between beaten occasionally on a big play versus being constantly beaten on short plays? I'd say there is. When you are constantly losing plays, it wears on a defense. Run plays are physical and take quite a toll on the DL and the EDGE rushers. And let's not pretend like we routinely keep short plays from becoming big plays. That is an issue. The real difference is that if you run a pressure scheme, you may give up a big play, you may also make a big play. We've made darned few big defensive plays. It looks even worse if you remove that varsity vs. jayvee scrimmage we had last week. And when you run a conservative scheme, you need to tackle well and keep short plays from becoming large plays, and that is not what we've done. No, it is not clear that the TEAM wants to play a certain way on defense. PETTINE wants to them to play a certain way. You can't tell me that the secondary WANTS to play that far off and give up easy completions. You can't tell me that Preston wants to drop as much as he does on passing plays. You can't tell me that Z wouldn't love an overload blitz that may allow him to come free, or only have to beat one guy. You can't tell me that every pass rusher wouldn't love to have a secondary taking away the quick early looks and make the QB hold the ball a second longer so they have a chance to get home. Defense is as much about mentality and physicality as it is anything else. We play a soft defense. And our defense is soft. No good defensive player wants to be soft. But that is exactly what we are. We aren't going to "heat up" on the QB with what we run. The QB is free to check down and get easy completions time after time. There hasn't been many stunts run. Only a few blitzes. Seems like Pettine only brings those things to the table when he has a 3 score lead and the game is getting late in the second half. And it's worked to win these regular season games. But just wait and see what a good team with a veteran QB does to us when it counts most. Playoffs. Or, I'm guessing we will get a preview of that against Rivers and the Colts. That old man is going to have forever in the pocket with many easy high percentage throws right in front of his face. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green19 Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, vegas492 said: You bring up valid points. Here are their counterarguments. Is there a difference between beaten occasionally on a big play versus being constantly beaten on short plays? I'd say there is. When you are constantly losing plays, it wears on a defense. Run plays are physical and take quite a toll on the DL and the EDGE rushers. And let's not pretend like we routinely keep short plays from becoming big plays. That is an issue. Again, this is a philosophy issue. I’m not saying you’re wrong or that I don’t even agree with you. My point is Pettine and probably the packers in general disagree. The argument likely is... they are very different. Getting regularly beat by big plays is a death sentence to a football team. They have the philosophy of if you are going to score you need to go 10+ plays each drive as this is a hard thing to do consistently ... and they are playing the odds of the opposing team either making a mistake or them making a play. The real difference is that if you run a pressure scheme, you may give up a big play, you may also make a big play. We've made darned few big defensive plays. It looks even worse if you remove that varsity vs. jayvee scrimmage we had last week. And when you run a conservative scheme, you need to tackle well and keep short plays from becoming large plays, and that is not what we've done.I don’t know if Pettine wants to run a pressure scheme though. Again my point is I think he just wants to rush four and have them get to the QB. Look at the investments: Z, Preston, Clark and Gary. By the looks of it he wants to do the ol Seahawk defense, and by that I mean getting pressure with the guys up front without doing too much to aid them and drop 7 into coverage. Now he dresses it up with tricking the QB and oline on which 4 he rushes. But the concept is very basic. Which is why my argument is the guys I mentioned need to play better and Pettine is likely waiting on this. No, it is not clear that the TEAM wants to play a certain way on defense. PETTINE wants to them to play a certain way. You can't tell me that the secondary WANTS to play that far off and give up easy completions. You can't tell me that Preston wants to drop as much as he does on passing plays. You can't tell me that Z wouldn't love an overload blitz that may allow him to come free, or only have to beat one guy. You can't tell me that every pass rusher wouldn't love to have a secondary taking away the quick early looks and make the QB hold the ball a second longer so they have a chance to get home.Again youre discussing individual wants. Pettine runs the defense. My point in saying ,this defense clearly has a certain way it wants to play, is illustrating Pettine has a plan and the players are executing it... sometimes well, other times not so well. I bring that up because at time this board acts like he doesn’t... when in fact it’s just a plan they don’t agree with. Defense is as much about mentality and physicality as it is anything else. We play a soft defense. And our defense is soft. No good defensive player wants to be soft. But that is exactly what we are.Not disagreeing with your view on the current defense, but it is your view. I don’t know if that is shared by the team and specifically the defense. And again this view comes from the lack of being a dominant run defense. Everyone only wants to define this team and specifically this defense using just the 49er games and now the Vikings game. Yet we forget this defense was a part of them going 13-3 last year and now 6-2. And something that doesn’t get discussed too often is... the offense’s role in how the defense plays and looks. Just look at Seattle, let Russ cook right? It’s forcing that defense on the field more and more. And it’s forcing Russ to gamble and he is turning it over more and more, which puts the defense is worse spots. Just like you say this defense has a hard time against good to great offenses... this offense poops the bed against a lot of good to great defenses. It’s a team game and it’s about complimentary football. And given the more premier talent is on the offensive side, more is on them in my opinion. Specifically the QB. We aren't going to "heat up" on the QB with what we run. The QB is free to check down and get easy completions time after time. There hasn't been many stunts run. Only a few blitzes. Seems like Pettine only brings those things to the table when he has a 3 score lead and the game is getting late in the second half. And it's worked to win these regular season games. But just wait and see what a good team with a veteran QB does to us when it counts most. Playoffs. Or, I'm guessing we will get a preview of that against Rivers and the Colts. That old man is going to have forever in the pocket with many easy high percentage throws right in front of his face.This seems very dismissive overall. Again my argument is it seems by how he is playing it Pettine is banking on talent. He is banking on Z and Preston and Clark and Gary to heat up. Win their matchups etc. Now I don’t know when he breaks glass in case of emergency on a new plan if they never show up. But your points read very defeatist. For the most part this is the same defense as last year. Z and Preston had career years (and maybe that’s the issue, those are one offs and not the consistent standard). Clark was dominant, we haven’t seen that really this year. My point is if we do... people will feel better about this defense because they will be at least making plays. Look at the italics texts for my comments. Edited November 11, 2020 by Green19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 20 hours ago, Green19 said: Look at the italics texts for my comments. Again, this is a philosophy issue. I’m not saying you’re wrong or that I don’t even agree with you. My point is Pettine and probably the packers in general disagree. The argument likely is... they are very different. Getting regularly beat by big plays is a death sentence to a football team. They have the philosophy of if you are going to score you need to go 10+ plays each drive as this is a hard thing to do consistently ... and they are playing the odds of the opposing team either making a mistake or them making a play.--Green19 Our defense has shown repeatedly that it is not hard to consistently go 10+ plays against them. Especially when you allow short plays to become long plays because of shoddy tackling. I'd prefer that they allow the secondary to make plays on long balls, or make the offense make great plays to beat the defense as opposed to allowing teams to run at will and hit screens that go for long touchdowns. I get what Pettine's scheme is. It's just wrong, though. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over hoping for different results. It's insane that we keep running this kind of scheme. Again youre discussing individual wants. Pettine runs the defense. My point in saying ,this defense clearly has a certain way it wants to play, is illustrating Pettine has a plan and the players are executing it... sometimes well, other times not so well. I bring that up because at time this board acts like he doesn’t... when in fact it’s just a plan they don’t agree with.--Green19 And my point is, the players are not buying into the scheme. No good defensive player wants to play this way. Release the hounds and let's see what they can do. This isn't about what the Packers/Pettine ARE doing, it is about what they SHOULD do. This right now is not a defense that can win a Championship. But, it has the talent to be just that. Let the talent play. Not disagreeing with your view on the current defense, but it is your view. I don’t know if that is shared by the team and specifically the defense. And again this view comes from the lack of being a dominant run defense. Everyone only wants to define this team and specifically this defense using just the 49er games and now the Vikings game. Yet we forget this defense was a part of them going 13-3 last year and now 6-2. And something that doesn’t get discussed too often is... the offense’s role in how the defense plays and looks. Just look at Seattle, let Russ cook right? It’s forcing that defense on the field more and more. And it’s forcing Russ to gamble and he is turning it over more and more, which puts the defense is worse spots.--Green19 If you think this is the same defense, mentality wise and physicality wise as last year, I suggest you re-watch the games last year. Especially the Bears/Vikings game when we mauled their o-lines. Or, just look at the pass pressure rate of last year compared to this year. We are dead last in pressures. Which is very different than last year. Seattle would be unstoppable on defense if they had our guys. Our defense would look the same if we had their guys. This seems very dismissive overall. Again my argument is it seems by how he is playing it Pettine is banking on talent. He is banking on Z and Preston and Clark and Gary to heat up. Win their matchups etc. Now I don’t know when he breaks glass in case of emergency on a new plan if they never show up. But your points read very defeatist. For the most part this is the same defense as last year. Z and Preston had career years (and maybe that’s the issue, those are one offs and not the consistent standard). Clark was dominant, we haven’t seen that really this year. My point is if we do... people will feel better about this defense because they will be at least making plays.---Green19 I'm not being dismissive. I'm being a realist. This defense makes darned few plays over 8 games. If Pettine wants to "bank on talent", let the secondary off their leash and get aggressive. Make the QB actually hold a ball for a split second longer. That is how you "free up" Z, P and Kenny. Personally I'll feel better about the defense when I see our high draft picks and highly paid free agents being put into positions to make plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green19 Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, vegas492 said: Personally I'll feel better about the defense when I see our high draft picks and highly paid free agents being put into positions to make plays. I guess I’d ask for for specific examples of how they aren’t being put in position to make plays... pass the normal “ they play too far off and Preston drops too much in coverage.” If there is a film break down you have seen, where they discuss everyone’s role on the play... I’d love to see it. Because if the coaching staff is doing that then you’re right. I just think it’s more complex than that. And unless you know what the defense is trying to do on a given play it’s tough to draw hard conclusions. I have on the other hand seen players not contain, crash down too much, miss their gap, etc... when specifically discussing run defense. And those things are on everyone not just Pettine. If on a given play Z makes the gamble to do as you say... make a play and crashes down, that could be Cook for 40yds because he didn’t “do his job”. Noticeably I saw a break down online where Barnes and Savage had to come and fill 2 gaps but because they were both late to get over and read the play... it left Barnes to have to guess which hole Dalvin cook was going to pick. Needless to say Cook and Barnes slow played it until Barnes was in no position to make any play on him. Now if both guys had been better at reading the play and their fits... I get the frustration with the defense. And you’re right it’s not like it was last year. But, and I might be not following you argument well, you make it seem it’s like Pettine has schemed it up differently and playing a different style. My read is it’s still the same defense. Issue is this is what this defense looks like when Z, Preston and Clark aren’t playing well. Which goes back to my original post. I think the issue is the play of those 3 guys specifically. More so then depth IDL guys or injuries or whatever. Now I agree Pettine should and could do something to help them... but again my read is that it seems Pettine is the type of dude to be like “no worries guys I trust you, this defense will go the way you guys go and I trust you’ll get it on track.” So he is waiting for last years defense to show up. Edited November 12, 2020 by Green19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Green19 said: I guess I’d ask for for specific examples of how they aren’t being put in position to make plays... pass the normal “ they play too far off and Preston drops too much in coverage.” I guess I'd say for you to go watch the games this year. And without getting into specifics, use the eyeball test. Count how many plays Savage and/or Amos is within 10 yards of the ball at the snap, or when a pass is dumped down. Then count how many times Redmond and/or Greene is near the LOS at the snap, or when the ball is dumped off. If you are going to draft a rookie safety high, with Savage's gifts, get him up near the action. If you are going to pay Amos that much, get him up there more. Let's not rely on a JAG named Redmond up there. Then...look how far off our corners play, and note down and distance. Those are the easy ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Punting Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 On 11/11/2020 at 6:33 AM, vegas492 said: True. But we were conservative in the secondary even with King back there. If you can't make it work with a high second round pick at one corner, a first round pick at the other corner, a highly paid safety and a first round pick at the other safety, well, you will never make any secondary work. This is an interesting discussion that ultimately boils down to the talent level in the secondary. Despite their draft pedigree, I believe two of the starters, King and Savage, are both flawed players that need to be protected. King, despite his plus tools and years of experience, has never been more than a middle of the road starter. He has strengths but also some key weaknesses. I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving him on an island too often against competent passing attacks. Savage has different issues, specifically his tackling. It stinks. He lacks striking power and has sloppy technique, limitations that were obvious in his college tape and remain obvious in his pro tape. Hitting and tackling is basically half the job description at safety. Selecting a player with those limitations, in the middle of the 1st round no less, was a glaring waste of draft capital, Gute's biggest draft blunder to date. More complete prospects were available in the 4th round. Bringing consistent pressure when one of your safeties can't be trusted to come up and tackle underneath routes is problematic. The front four isn't getting it done, so the impulse to bring more pressure is understandable, but the very real limitations in the secondary have to temper that impulse. The passivity from Pettine seems to be an acknowledgment of those personnel shortcomings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green19 Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 hour ago, vegas492 said: I guess I'd say for you to go watch the games this year. And without getting into specifics, use the eyeball test. Count how many plays Savage and/or Amos is within 10 yards of the ball at the snap, or when a pass is dumped down. Then count how many times Redmond and/or Greene is near the LOS at the snap, or when the ball is dumped off. If you are going to draft a rookie safety high, with Savage's gifts, get him up near the action. If you are going to pay Amos that much, get him up there more. Let's not rely on a JAG named Redmond up there. Then...look how far off our corners play, and note down and distance. Those are the easy ones. Fair enough... also just want to say I have been enjoying the back and forth discussion with you Vegas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighCalebR Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 All rookie team to complete bust in less than a year. Wild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 7 hours ago, Green19 said: I guess I’d ask for for specific examples of how they aren’t being put in position to make plays... pass the normal “ they play too far off and Preston drops too much in coverage.” If there is a film break down you have seen, where they discuss everyone’s role on the play... I’d love to see it. Because if the coaching staff is doing that then you’re right. Do you want to pick some plays to look at? I generally go through the biggest plays of each game and check things out. For example against the Vikings, their biggest plays came on a 3rd and 9, a 3rd and 6, and another 3rd and 6. We brought 4 guys on the first two and 3 guys on the latter. Against the 49ers two of the our 3 biggest plays came against the exact same setup, and on the 3rd one, Barnes just got caught peaking with his eyes in the backfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 18 hours ago, Les Punting said: This is an interesting discussion that ultimately boils down to the talent level in the secondary. Despite their draft pedigree, I believe two of the starters, King and Savage, are both flawed players that need to be protected. King, despite his plus tools and years of experience, has never been more than a middle of the road starter. He has strengths but also some key weaknesses. I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving him on an island too often against competent passing attacks. Savage has different issues, specifically his tackling. It stinks. He lacks striking power and has sloppy technique, limitations that were obvious in his college tape and remain obvious in his pro tape. Hitting and tackling is basically half the job description at safety. Selecting a player with those limitations, in the middle of the 1st round no less, was a glaring waste of draft capital, Gute's biggest draft blunder to date. More complete prospects were available in the 4th round. Bringing consistent pressure when one of your safeties can't be trusted to come up and tackle underneath routes is problematic. The front four isn't getting it done, so the impulse to bring more pressure is understandable, but the very real limitations in the secondary have to temper that impulse. The passivity from Pettine seems to be an acknowledgment of those personnel shortcomings. Interesting points. And valid in my book. I'd disagree about King. I've got no issue letting him jam more, because we still have guys behind him to cover him up deep. And he has the size to do it. Savage is a much better athlete that Redmond, that's why I'd like him "up" more in the defense. Anyone can simply drop back and play space, especially when corners are that far off to begin with. Guess I feel like Savage, the athlete, needs to be put in a position where that ability can take over more. But you could be right that he doesn't tackle good enough, or read things good enough yet. But still I feel like anything is an upgrade from Redmond. Overall, I don't feel like the secondary really has limitations, except for the scheme they are being asked to run. I think if you took our secondary and put it in Seattle, they'd be pretty dominant. But, that is just me, probably being a little bit of a homer to our guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 18 hours ago, Green19 said: Fair enough... also just want to say I have been enjoying the back and forth discussion with you Vegas. Same here. I'd peg you are kind of a glass is half full thing regarding the defense. Doing what they are asked and it is fine. And I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I"m more of a glass half empty regarding the defense. Because what I see is a defense that cannot win two big games to end the season. But I do see an offense that can. And defense rules the playoffs. And it pains me because I feel like we have the talent to be a defense that can win those last two games, we just lack a DC that can scheme it together. And that really frustrates me because I defended Pettine at the end of last season. I remember being very proud of the goalline stand against Carolina and McCaffrey. I remember loving watching us play defense against the Bears and Vikings twice. There were other games along the way where our defense made a final stand and won games. There was reason for optimism. And that all disappeared this year. Add to that the lack of development/production from Gary and Savage and it is very disappointing. Offense improved by leaps and bounds over last year. Defense regressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 12 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Do you want to pick some plays to look at? I generally go through the biggest plays of each game and check things out. For example against the Vikings, their biggest plays came on a 3rd and 9, a 3rd and 6, and another 3rd and 6. We brought 4 guys on the first two and 3 guys on the latter. Against the 49ers two of the our 3 biggest plays came against the exact same setup, and on the 3rd one, Barnes just got caught peaking with his eyes in the backfield And THANK YOU for taking the time to do that. I always look forward to your posts concerning those things. Must take enough time to pull that together. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatJerkDave Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 I don't have numbers, so I may be wrong. But does it seem like this team creates a lot of 3 and outs as well? It feels to me, that if we give up a first down, we are in for a long drive that results in a score. But their stops seem to come quick. I don't recall many instances of drive starts at the 20, drive ends at the 45 for this defense. Just the feel that I get from watching. I could be dead wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatJerkDave Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 19 hours ago, Les Punting said: King, despite his plus tools and years of experience, has never been more than a middle of the road starter. He has strengths but also some key weaknesses. I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving him on an island too often against competent passing attacks. I agree about Savage, and the defensive front not getting the job done. I disagree about Kevin King. When he is on the field, and it is not all that often, he is a plus player. But, and it is a big but, he has only played in about 60% of possible games in his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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