diehardlionfan Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 minute ago, LionArkie said: If Caldwell was the light...God help us all! lol. He was the lone bright spot in 50 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said: He was the lone bright spot in 50 years. That's kind of like me streaking through the city and people saying "that's the best looking naked man running through town". Edited October 13, 2020 by LionArkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehardlionfan Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, LionArkie said: That's kind of like me streaking through the city and people saying that's the best looking naked man running through town. Truth, stranger than fiction! 🤠Caldwell represents the high water mark for the Lions. (Such as it is.) If anyone would’ve told me 50 years ago that I wouldn’t see the Lions in the league championship I wouldn’t have believed them.  1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnivolcm Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 25 minutes ago, LionArkie said: If Caldwell was the light...God help us all! lol. See, his light was so blinding it frightens @LionArkie to this day! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020  17 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said: Truth, stranger than fiction! 🤠Caldwell represents the high water mark for the Lions. (Such as it is.) If anyone would’ve told me 50 years ago that I wouldn’t see the Lions in the league championship I wouldn’t have believed them.  While Caldwell is the high water mark for Lions coaches in W's/L's, there is some revisionist history going on as well. - His defenses were terrible for the bulk of his tenure after Suh left - His running game was in the high 20's and 30's during his tenure - 4th Quarter Comeback Wins/Game Winning Drives: 2014 - 5 2015 - 3 2016 - 8 2017 - 4 Total of 20 with Caldwell vs 16 in pre/post-Caldwell Average win over this time frame was 4.5 points. 3 games by 1 point 7 games by 3 points 2 games by 4 points 5 games by 5 - 7 points 2 games by 10+ points More than half of Caldwell's 36 wins in Detroit were come from behind, 4th quarter Matthew Stafford heroics and we squeezed it out. More than half of those games were a late touchdown to just inch over and get the W or a Matt Prater kick to break a tie. For all of his success, Jim Caldwell is not the head coach of the Lions for a reason and it isn't just about Bob Quinn wanting to get his buddy in town. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:  While Caldwell is the high water mark for Lions coaches in W's/L's, there is some revisionist history going on as well. - His defenses were terrible for the bulk of his tenure after Suh left - His running game was in the high 20's and 30's during his tenure - 4th Quarter Comeback Wins/Game Winning Drives: 2014 - 5 2015 - 3 2016 - 8 2017 - 4 Total of 20 with Caldwell vs 16 in pre/post-Caldwell Average win over this time frame was 4.5 points. 3 games by 1 point 7 games by 3 points 2 games by 4 points 5 games by 5 - 7 points 2 games by 10+ points More than half of Caldwell's 36 wins in Detroit were come from behind, 4th quarter Matthew Stafford heroics and we squeezed it out. More than half of those games were a late touchdown to just inch over and get the W or a Matt Prater kick to break a tie. For all of his success, Jim Caldwell is not the head coach of the Lions for a reason and it isn't just about Bob Quinn wanting to get his buddy in town. I was no Caldwell fan at all, and I do agree about the revisionist history. However, I will say the same argument is being made by those who are arguing if the Lions make the playoffs now under MP as being good enough. Both were not going to cut it. I think that much has been proven. Edited October 13, 2020 by LionArkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, LionArkie said: I was no Caldwell fan at all, and I do agree about the revisionist history. However, I will say the same argument is being made by those who are arguing if the Lions make the playoffs now under MP as being good enough. Both were not going to cut it. I think that much has been proven. If Patricia does make the playoffs (in an expanded year), it's only going to buy him another off-season to turn things around. It would be a step in the right direction but it wouldn't really prove anything. We had that one year (which Orlovsky actually referenced as a positive) where the team started off 1-7 and then went 6-2 to finish off the season 7-9. There's no way that Patricia deserves a chance to go 1-7 IMO but if he is able to have a bounce back on this season and sneak the team into the playoffs then he does deserve a chance to continue to move things forward and see if he can move that into a division title, etc. Unless Patricia can show consistency, he will be fighting an uphill battle while sitting on an ever increasing hot seat. Whether he would be let go a week from today, end of this year or in future years, Patricia is going to be fired unless he can show he can bring stability and winning to this organization. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnivolcm Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 I don't think it is revisionist history. At the time of Caldwell's firing I said I didn't want him to be fired. I think he had a weak roster and he got the most he could more often than not. I think the GMs were the weak link while Caldwell was here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnivolcm Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:  While Caldwell is the high water mark for Lions coaches in W's/L's, there is some revisionist history going on as well. - His defenses were terrible for the bulk of his tenure after Suh left - His running game was in the high 20's and 30's during his tenure - 4th Quarter Comeback Wins/Game Winning Drives: 2014 - 5 2015 - 3 2016 - 8 2017 - 4 Total of 20 with Caldwell vs 16 in pre/post-Caldwell Average win over this time frame was 4.5 points. 3 games by 1 point 7 games by 3 points 2 games by 4 points 5 games by 5 - 7 points 2 games by 10+ points More than half of Caldwell's 36 wins in Detroit were come from behind, 4th quarter Matthew Stafford heroics and we squeezed it out. More than half of those games were a late touchdown to just inch over and get the W or a Matt Prater kick to break a tie. For all of his success, Jim Caldwell is not the head coach of the Lions for a reason and it isn't just about Bob Quinn wanting to get his buddy in town. I never thought I'd see someone saying winning close games in the NFL was a bad thing, but here we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said: I don't think it is revisionist history. At the time of Caldwell's firing I said I didn't want him to be fired. I think he had a weak roster and he got the most he could more often than not. I think the GMs were the weak link while Caldwell was here. Ok, maybe you liked him, but I think most on this board were not opposed to his firing. He couldn't win the big games and I felt like he was never going to do so. Was he better than what is here now, absolutely. Did most feel like he was going to be a championship caliber coach...no they did not. And i think that's where the "revisionist history" comment is coming in and is where I agree with it. I will definitely grant you the GM was the bigger issue here in Detroit. However in Indy, he took the best team to the sb and lost and was out coached by Sean Payton. The next year he was 10-6, then 2-14. He was riding Dungy's coat tails. At best, he was going to be the next Wayne Fontes here in Detroit. If you want a wild card to the playoffs, Caldwell is your man and at least you stand a chance. If you wanted more, then you wanted him gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnivolcm Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 2 hours ago, LionArkie said: Ok, maybe you liked him, but I think most on this board were not opposed to his firing. He couldn't win the big games and I felt like he was never going to do so. Was he better than what is here now, absolutely. Did most feel like he was going to be a championship caliber coach...no they did not. And i think that's where the "revisionist history" comment is coming in and is where I agree with it. I will definitely grant you the GM was the bigger issue here in Detroit. However in Indy, he took the best team to the sb and lost and was out coached by Sean Payton. The next year he was 10-6, then 2-14. He was riding Dungy's coat tails. At best, he was going to be the next Wayne Fontes here in Detroit. If you want a wild card to the playoffs, Caldwell is your man and at least you stand a chance. If you wanted more, then you wanted him gone.  It's always going to be tough to win big games when you're hamstrung with a poor roster. I thought most of this board were wrong in wanting Caldwell fired and I think the gift of hindsight has shown just that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted October 14, 2020 Author Share Posted October 14, 2020 3 hours ago, Nnivolcm said: I never thought I'd see someone saying winning close games in the NFL was a bad thing, but here we are. Year after year of bad defenses, zero running game while winning purely on Stafford's arm. Caldwell had a history of lacklustre rushing attacks so you can't just blame the GM for not bringing him players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted October 14, 2020 Author Share Posted October 14, 2020 3 hours ago, LionArkie said: Ok, maybe you liked him, but I think most on this board were not opposed to his firing. He couldn't win the big games and I felt like he was never going to do so. Was he better than what is here now, absolutely. Did most feel like he was going to be a championship caliber coach...no they did not. And i think that's where the "revisionist history" comment is coming in and is where I agree with it. I will definitely grant you the GM was the bigger issue here in Detroit. However in Indy, he took the best team to the sb and lost and was out coached by Sean Payton. The next year he was 10-6, then 2-14. He was riding Dungy's coat tails. At best, he was going to be the next Wayne Fontes here in Detroit. If you want a wild card to the playoffs, Caldwell is your man and at least you stand a chance. If you wanted more, then you wanted him gone. Which was exactly the justification behind "9-7 isn't good enough". I remember a few of us had said that it might not work with NE coaches and their history. However there was no chance to improve upon that with Caldwell at the helm. Unfortunately for us that gamble has appeared to backfire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnivolcm Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 35 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: Year after year of bad defenses, zero running game while winning purely on Stafford's arm. Caldwell had a history of lacklustre rushing attacks so you can't just blame the GM for not bringing him players. When those issues existed, and were usually worse, before and after Caldwell, it makes sense he wasn't the cause of them. Caldwell got the most out of a bad roster. Something no other Lions coach has been able to replicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehardlionfan Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Karnage84 said:  While Caldwell is the high water mark for Lions coaches in W's/L's, there is some revisionist history going on as well. - His defenses were terrible for the bulk of his tenure after Suh left - His running game was in the high 20's and 30's during his tenure - 4th Quarter Comeback Wins/Game Winning Drives: 2014 - 5 2015 - 3 2016 - 8 2017 - 4 Total of 20 with Caldwell vs 16 in pre/post-Caldwell Average win over this time frame was 4.5 points. 3 games by 1 point 7 games by 3 points 2 games by 4 points 5 games by 5 - 7 points 2 games by 10+ points More than half of Caldwell's 36 wins in Detroit were come from behind, 4th quarter Matthew Stafford heroics and we squeezed it out. More than half of those games were a late touchdown to just inch over and get the W or a Matt Prater kick to break a tie. For all of his success, Jim Caldwell is not the head coach of the Lions for a reason and it isn't just about Bob Quinn wanting to get his buddy in town. You know. You can use stats for a variety of reasons. Bottom line regardless of your attempt to discredit him he won football games far more frequently than his replacement. He also won more games than he lost which is an organizational weakness and unheard of territory for the dynamic duo. You discredit him because a field goal kicker makes a late game winning kick? You discredit him for the QB doing his job successfully? Well I guess I’m just weird because late game wins sure beat blown leads and losses. We can agree he’s not the coach for a reason. The reason is Quinn made a terrible mistake. And, yes, he did want his buddy in Detroit. He brought in the Patriot way  in his coach, his free agency signings etc. I don’t think Caldwell was the long term answer but he got better results than others. If you’re going to fire the coach you better get it right and Quinn didn’t. Edited October 14, 2020 by diehardlionfan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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