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Carson Wentz and the QB Position


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Just now, Nabbs4u said:

Wentz can run the RPO in his sleep and well! Problem is your most likely going to get him injured which us why they rarely do it as it is intended.

Wentz is an Athlete but a oft injured one!!

honestly carson running the ball is the best thing he has going for himself right now.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Really looked like we were past this, that weeks 1-3 were a fluke and 2020 was just an imperfect QB trying to do to much in a poor situation, but at 28 with his great tools, was still likely our answer at QB with some improvement... but now this, and it feels like we are back to square one. 4 TOs, including 2 really, really, bad INTs vs the league's worst D that only forced 3 TOs prior. Eagles were home, with the most weapons they've had all year, and he just wasn't seeing the field and was making poor decisions all night. 

 

The only context in which this kind of play would be understandable, let alone acceptable, is from a rookie QB. How did a QB who has looked as bad as Carson has for half of 2020 look so good in 2017, or hell, in 2019? Honestly, baffling to me. Supporting cast can make a big difference, but this is something else, can't say I remember anything like it. 

 

What we'll actually do is pretty clear, ride him out for remainder of 2020. If his 4th TO didn't get him benched tonight, then it is pretty clear the coaches have no plan of benching Carson. My guess is he will have the job to start 2021 but be on a shorter leash and be benched by week 4 if he had a repeat start to the year as he had this year (unless he is a disaster in camp). 

 

 

I just wish there was some sort of explanation for why he is so much worse in 2020 than he was in 2019. When he was fresh off a major injury and had an equally depleted cast (better OL, worse weapons). Does he just not care about football?

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41 minutes ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

Really looked like we were past this, that weeks 1-3 were a fluke and 2020 was just an imperfect QB trying to do to much in a poor situation, but at 28 with his great tools, was still likely our answer at QB with some improvement... but now this, and it feels like we are back to square one. 4 TOs, including 2 really, really, bad INTs vs the league's worst D that only forced 3 TOs prior. Eagles were home, with the most weapons they've had all year, and he just wasn't seeing the field and was making poor decisions all night. 

 

The only context in which this kind of play would be understandable, let alone acceptable, is from a rookie QB. How did a QB who has looked as bad as Carson has for half of 2020 look so good in 2017, or hell, in 2019? Honestly, baffling to me. Supporting cast can make a big difference, but this is something else, can't say I remember anything like it. 

 

What we'll actually do is pretty clear, ride him out for remainder of 2020. If his 4th TO didn't get him benched tonight, then it is pretty clear the coaches have no plan of benching Carson. My guess is he will have the job to start 2021 but be on a shorter leash and be benched by week 4 if he had a repeat start to the year as he had this year (unless he is a disaster in camp). 

 

 

I just wish there was some sort of explanation for why he is so much worse in 2020 than he was in 2019. When he was fresh off a major injury and had an equally depleted cast (better OL, worse weapons). Does he just not care about football?

Did he even play well after week 3? I think he just set the bar so low the first few weeks that it was an improvement but still overall, not good QB play. He flashed but still turned the ball over a ton and made ridiculously bad plays. I have defender Wentz for years but I just can't do it anymore. He had excuses in the past and people will still make the supporting cast excuse but it doesn't play this year. The oline hasn't been awful and at times like most of tonight has given him time to throw. The WRs have actually played pretty well overall. Most problems this year have been directly attributable to Wentz. 

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51 minutes ago, EAGLES3658 said:

The oline hasn't been awful and at times like most of tonight has given him time to throw. The WRs have actually played pretty well overall. Most problems this year have been directly attributable to Wentz. 

In what world can you believe this to be true? Did you not see the stat they posted during the game about Wentz being pressured? Not the sack stat which was Rediculous too because several are on him, but pressured? That's directly related to the revolving door that is the 2020 Eagles OL. 

WR's have actually played pretty well? Outside of Fulgham who came out of nowhere, who? Continuity on Offense has always been key for a QB. Those that dont have it, typically struggle. Those that do, typically don't. 

The fact everyone is making Wentz out as the end all be all to our offensive struggles and woes is a joke. The only two constants on Offense for 8 weeks now has been Jason Kelce and Carson Wentz. Every other position has been thrown into turmoil in some form or fashion during that span.

It's not about making excuses for Wentz's poor play but understanding this is not a recipe for success. Especially with a HC so obsessed with proving his genius to the world, he forgets the obvious or what is actually working. 

TO's, Penalties,  Drops, missed tackles, blown coverages, missed FG's that's not all on Wentz, sorry. Plenty of 💩 to spread around.

 

Edited by Nabbs4u
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48 minutes ago, EAGLES3658 said:

Did he even play well after week 3? I think he just set the bar so low the first few weeks that it was an improvement but still overall, not good QB play. He flashed but still turned the ball over a ton and made ridiculously bad plays. I have defender Wentz for years but I just can't do it anymore. He had excuses in the past and people will still make the supporting cast excuse but it doesn't play this year. The oline hasn't been awful and at times like most of tonight has given him time to throw. The WRs have actually played pretty well overall. Most problems this year have been directly attributable to Wentz. 

You’re right he was never really good this year, every game has had the boneheaded play somewhere, but weeks 5-7 he was at least looking like an NFL QB. Overmatched vs 2 of league’s best defenses but still making some plays despite offense missing nearly every starter, and then vs Giants just a hot & cold act, but there was at least hot...

 

I think the idea he has a poor supporting cast still plays, it just doesn’t excuse THIS level of play, as opposed to 2019 level play, which I think people are erroneously lumping all as “post 2017 Carson”. 2018/19 he was disappointing compared to his 2017 self and struggled at times, but ultimately I do think he was a top 12ish QB. Numbers were not great because of poor cast. 2020 is just a different story. He’s as bad as his numbers show for most part, and those numbers are magnitudes worse than they were in 18/19.

 

Wentz being bad, talent around him being bad, and coaching being bad are not mutually exclusive events. Unfortunately I think we suffer from all 3 (although the talent deficiency is byproduct of injuries, and is trending upwards). 

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10 minutes ago, Nabbs4u said:

In what world can you believe this to be true? Did you not see the stat they posted during the game about Wentz being pressured? Not the sack stat which was Rediculous too because several are on him, but pressured? That's directly related to the revolving door that is the 2020 Eagles OL. 

WR's have actually played pretty well? Outside of Fulgham who came out of nowhere, who? Continuity on Offense has always been key for a QB. Those that dont have it, typically struggle. Those that do, typically don't. 

The fact everyone is making Wentz out as the end all be all to our offensive struggles and woes is a joke. The only two constants on Offense for 8 weeks now has been Jason Kelce and Carson Wentz. Every other position has been thrown into turmoil in some form or fashion during that span.

It's not about making excuses for Wentz's poor play but understanding this is not a recipe for success. Especially with a HC so obsessed with proving his genius to the world, he forgets the obvious or what is actually working. 

TO's, Penalties,  Drops, missed tackles, blown coverages, missed FG's that's not all on Wentz, sorry. Plenty of 💩 to spread around.

 

100% the whole team has been trash, but Carson has been a part of the problem, and that’s a big deal as a $30M franchise QB. Not the same as say a guard struggling, a position where starting caliber guys are commonly found in mid-rounds and studs can be paid less than $10M/year.

 

I’m not defending the OL play, certainly not a good pass pro unit, but also not the worst like numbers show. It’s still a “pressure” when Wentz sits in clean pocket for 4 seconds unable to find anyone. It’s still a pressure when he prematurely flees pocket and has to throw away when 2nd level defender comes crashing down. That all plays into your point of continuity which I agree is key and makes everyone look worse.

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5 minutes ago, Nabbs4u said:

In what world can you believe this to be true? Did you not see the stat they posted during the game about Wentz being pressured? Not the sack stat which was Rediculous too because several are on him, but pressured? That's directly related to the revolving door that is the 2020 Eagles OL. 

WR's have actually played pretty well? Outside of Fulgham who came out of nowhere, who? Continuity on Offense has always been key for a QB. Those that dont have it, typically struggle. Those that do, typically don't. 

The fact everyone is making Wentz out as the end all be all to our offensive struggles and woes is a joke. The only two constants on Offense for 8 weeks now has been Jason Kelce and Carson Wentz. Every other position has been thrown into turmoil in some form or fashion during that span.

It's not about making excuses for Wentz's poor play but understanding this is not a recipe for success. Especially with a HC so obsessed with proving his genius to the world, he forgets the obvious or what is actually working. 

TO's, Penalties,  Drops, missed tackles, blown coverages, missed FG's that's not all on Wentz, sorry. Plenty of 💩 to spread around.

 

How many sacks have been his fault due to holding the ball too long? How many were avoidable? Quite a few. I'm not saying the o-line has been good. But there have been plenty of stretches where the o-line has given him time to throw and he makes the same boneheaded mistakes. 

Once again, the WRs haven't been great but I feel that they have been reliable this season. There aren't blatant drops every game that destroy the game like last season.

The fact is, objectively, is that Wentz has been the main reason they have lost or been in bad situations in most of the games this season. Tonight was a great example since they were playing against a historically bad defense. Lets look at his turnovers:

Turnover 1: Had all day to get rid of the ball and just throw it away. Not only does he not throw it away, but he lets a defender close in from at least 10 yards away and doesn't even tuck the ball away and protect it... Awful turnover, no one to blame but himself. These are the type of turnovers he has been making his entire career. We are in year 5 all in the same system, doyou really think this problem will be corrected if it hasn't been at this point?

Turnover 2: Blitz, gotta get rid of it quickly. There are two WIDE open Eagles receivers in the middle of the field. Gotta get the ball out there and its an easy 1st. Not only does he take the sack but he fumbles too. That one is on Wentz.

Turnover 3: Wentz had all day to throw. He had Scott on the side line he could throw to or he could take the easy yards in front of him and run it since no one was close. Instead, he throws off target into double coverage and gets picked. All on Wentz there.

Turnover 4: Had a 1 on 1 match up with Hightower having inside leverage. Ball has to be thrown to the right goal post so Hightower can run away from the defender and try to make a play. What does Wentz do? Throws it to the left goal post where Hightower has to run through the defender to try to make a play on the ball...interception. Wentz is at fault again.

 

There is also the fact that the o-line got manhandle in the 2nd half of the week 1 game against Washington. That was probably about a third of the sacks he has taken this year in one game. Wentz was not to blame in the 2nd half when the pocket was collapsing constantly. He could do nothing there. However, you can make the argument that the only reason they were in that situation in the second half is because Wentz put them there with boneheaded plays. The o-line has certainly gotten better since then. Wentz has made way too many bad plays that were solely his fault to keep blaming the rest of the team. 

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So after sitting on it, I'm definitely still not at the point where I want to move Wentz and don't think I will be in 2020. Don’t misconstrue that as defending his 2020 play. He’s been one of the league’s worst QBs, no way around it. However, considering off field factors such as his contract, I just think all we can do is hope this year is some sort of fluke, and that as a sub 30 year old QB he indeed improves w/ some coaching changes, or any changes. Now should we have hope he improve enough that he is once again an MVP frontrunner or will get another contract after this one? No, because at that point we're leaning a little more towards delusion than optimism. The fact is we’re tied to him through 2021, might as well hope he rights the ship between now and then (after 2021 season we can cut him and only take $24M in dead cap). Jalen will still be here if it doesn’t work out, for those who think he is the future. The only argument against this mindset that I’d get on board with is trading him, but I really don't see how it's realistic to think anybody would trade for Carson right now, as you still take on a hefty $20M/year contract.

Of course if you think Carson was trash in 2018/19, then 2020 as the last straw and reason to bench him ASAP makes sense, but as I've said in this thread I thought he was top 12ish those seasons, around 26 games worth of play, which is we're then weighing vs these 8-16 games of 2020. I guess it also comes down to a more “philosophical” question of can a QB have an awful year and still be a good QB? Can an awful season be looked past? Don't think there is concrete answer there.

Just a bad situation we have found ourselves in with what we thought was our QBOTF suddenly playing bizarrely poor. All we can do is hope. Ultimately I just don’t think benching him for Hurts serves a meaningful purpose at this juncture (would be a different story if Wentz was holding us back from deep run), which is why I’m in favor of riding it out even if gets embarrassingly bad (like tonight). I'd be lying if when watching a game where it is clear even the staff is afraid of Carson and what he might do I was not praying for Hurts, just for the spark, just for the what-if, but when taking a step back, assessing the situation, it's just not the right move. Not yet, anyway.

 

tl;dr- Travis Fulgham is a top 8 WR in the NFL and I'd love to see his production if he was playing w/ a good QB.

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I really hope Doug considers stepping away from playcalling this week.

Its clearly not working out great this year. Just try something else. Because a lot of this is on Carson, but the offense can be so fundamentally flawed at times.

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50 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

I really hope Doug considers stepping away from playcalling this week.

Its clearly not working out great this year. Just try something else. Because a lot of this is on Carson, but the offense can be so fundamentally flawed at times.

Who would call plays? If you say Marty the Moron as an upgrade, your Mod badge is revoked.

Edited by Nabbs4u
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