Let's do this....Wilson vs Mahomes

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

45 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Either you're reading something very wrong, or something you're looking at is very wrong. Wilson threw more passes last year than Mahomes did. He certainly didn't throw 150 less. Best I can think is you're somehow mixing up Wilson's 2019 stats and his 2020 ones? Because he does have 150 less attempts so far this year than Mahomes had last year, but he also has double the INTs Mahomes had all of last year. So I have no idea what you're talking about here.

I'm just gonna stop posting before 8am because I was looking at Wilson's completions vs. Mahomes' attempts smdh

[patriotsheatyan]

On 9/28/2020 at 9:17 PM, patriotsheatyan said:

Noticing what? Nothing is new. Wilson has had stretches with 10+ TDs before. You and the media promote the idea of that Wilson is a front runner for MVP during that stretch every year. Then he fades, an actual elite QB steps up and wins MVP with Wilson’s supporters forced to sit down and get ready for next years “It’s his turn” campaign. 

And they have made their annual disappearance. 

[animaltested]

I blame this stupid thread for Cursed Russ

[evilflamingo]

4 hours ago, patriotsheatyan said:

And they have made their annual disappearance. 

Well put. We've seen this story a few times now. The amazing (not really but I don't want to be mean) thing is that people keep falling for it. It's been proven time and time again that Seattle needs its run game to drive them and have consistently found themselves on the losing side when Russel is asked to air it out. 

"SCANDALAOOUSSZZ!! nOT a sINgglE MVP vVotez!!!" Rinse and repeat for next year. 

[animaltested]

10 hours ago, evilflamingo said:

Well put. We've seen this story a few times now. The amazing (not really but I don't want to be mean) thing is that people keep falling for it. It's been proven time and time again that Seattle needs its run game to drive them and have consistently found themselves on the losing side when Russel is asked to air it out. 

"SCANDALAOOUSSZZ!! nOT a sINgglE MVP vVotez!!!" Rinse and repeat for next year. 

But thats not really true.

Seattle's run game has been in a serious decline since 2016. Yet, Seattle's offense has been in the top 10 in efficiency over the last 3 years. Russell's higher usage in the passing game has been the one thing keeping this team afloat post LOB, and why Seattle has had a 29-15 record since 2017. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by animaltested

[evilflamingo]

13 hours ago, animaltested said:

But thats not really true.

Seattle's run game has been in a serious decline since 2016. Yet, Seattle's offense has been in the top 10 in efficiency over the last 3 years. Russell's higher usage in the passing game has been the one thing keeping this team afloat post LOB, and why Seattle has had a 29-15 record since 2017. 

Serious decline? 

In 2018 they led the league in rushing. Last year they were 4th. In 2017 they struggled (rank #23) and guess what, they didn't make the playoffs. 

There is also the uncomfortable stat that Seattle are 3-12 in their last 15 games where Wilson has made 37+ attempts (above the league average). That to me is an indication that Seattle are unlikely to win a shootout with Russel under center, especially if their run game isn't working. 

[Archimedes]

2 hours ago, evilflamingo said:

Serious decline? 

In 2018 they led the league in rushing. Last year they were 4th. In 2017 they struggled (rank #23) and guess what, they didn't make the playoffs. 

There is also the uncomfortable stat that Seattle are 3-12 in their last 15 games where Wilson has made 37+ attempts (above the league average). That to me is an indication that Seattle are unlikely to win a shootout with Russel under center, especially if their run game isn't working. 

Yeah, when I started seeing some of the Russ supporters claim that “Carroll was holding Russ back!” 🙄, I did some background checking on Russ’s stats and realized just how dependent he is on the running game. From a game to game and season to season trend, Russ’s efficiency starts to creep down when he has to put the ball in the air a lot and doesn’t have an elite running game to lean on.

[Saint_James]

Quote

That to me is an indication that Seattle are unlikely to win a shootout with Russel under center, especially if their run game isn't working. 

Wow you don't say?  I mean Seattle only has the historically worst defense we've ever seen (coming from a Saints fan, that says a lot).   Of course Wilson has to air it out, he's constantly playing from behind.  Their defense cannot keep ANY lead, no matter how large or small.   Seriously I'm not exaggerating, at this pace they will be the worst defense in the history of the NFL bar none. 

Teams matter.  Why don't you go back and see what happens when they've given this man a good team to work with?  Oh look, they won a Super Bowl and lost another thanks to the worst playcalling choke of all time, but I digress. 

What's with all these absurd hot-takes.  You wanna crown a guy after 3 seasons?

 

 

[Saint_James]

8 minutes ago, Archimedes said:

Yeah, when I started seeing some of the Russ supporters claim that “Carroll was holding Russ back!” 🙄, I did some background checking on Russ’s stats and realized just how dependent he is on the running game. From a game to game and season to season trend, Russ’s efficiency starts to creep down when he has to put the ball in the air a lot and doesn’t have an elite running game to lean on.

Are you JUST looking at run game or have you correlated a bad defense as a slight against Russel?   Just asking...

[ET80]

25 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

What's with all these absurd hot-takes.  You wanna crown a guy after 3 seasons?

Have you seen those three seasons?

- Season 1: MVP, 5,000/50+ TDs

- Season 2: Misses four games, still top 10 in major statistical categories, SB victory, SB MVP.

- Season 3: Currently sitting on a 3,800 yards with a 31/2 TD: INT ratio with four games left, and an early favorite to win another MVP (and possibly SB).

What more do you want? Seriously? 

[Saint_James]

2 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Have you seen those three seasons?

- Season 1: MVP, 5,000/50+ TDs

- Season 2: Misses four games, still top 10 in major statistical categories, SB victory, SB MVP.

- Season 3: Currently sitting on a 3,800 yards with a 31/2 TD: INT ratio with four games left, and an early favorite to win another MVP (and possibly SB).

What more do you want? Seriously? 

Have you seen Russel Wilson's?   This list was compiled right before Mahomes got his start:
 

- Wilson is the first QB in NFL history with a passer rating of over 95.0 in each of his first three seasons.

- Wilson has 24 games with a passer rating of 100+ in his first three seasons...more than any other QB in NFL history. Flacco, Marino, and Palmer are tied for second with 19.

- Wilson leads all QB’s in the NFL over the last 3 years with 10- 4th quarter comebacks and 15- game-winning drives. No other QB in NFL history has ever done this in their first 3 years.

- He is one of only five players with at least 20 touchdown passes in each of first three seasons.

- Wilson is the first and only QB in the Super Bowl era to have average yards per attempt of 7.6 or better in each of his first three seasons.

- Wilson’s career yards per passing attempt of 7.9 is fourth-best of all QB’s since 1951.

- Wilson is ranked #1 in career postseason yards per attempt. His career average of 9.01 (min. 200 pass attempts) is the highest in NFL history.

- Wilson is the only QB in NFL history to appear in two SB's in his first three seasons.

- Wilson holds the record for most passing yards in a playoff game by a rookie QB with 385 yards. The old record was set in 1937 by Sammy Baugh with 335 yards...that record stood for 75 years.

- Wilson is ranked at #2 in all-time career passer rating (min. 1200 attempts) with a 98.6. Only Aaron Rodgers has a higher career passer rating.

- Wilson's passer rating of 98.6 for a player’s first 3 years is the best in NFL history.

- Including postseason, Wilson's passer rating of 98.5 for a player's first three years is the best in NFL history.

- Wilson's postseason passer rating of 97.8 in his first three years is the best in NFL history.

- Wilson’s career postseason passer rating of 97.8 (min. 200 attempts) is the 5th best in NFL history.

- Wilson's TD% of 5.8% in his first three years is the 2nd highest in NFL history; only Dan Marino is higher with 6.9%.

- Wilson's INT% of 2.1% in his first three years is the lowest of any QB in NFL history.

- Wilson is ranked #2 all-time with a career TD to INT ratio of 2.77 (min. 1200 attempts) behind only Rodgers.

- Wilson is ranked #3 all-time with a career INT rate of only 2.1%, behind only Rodgers and Brady.

- Wilson is the first and only QB in NFL history to throw for 300+ yards and run for 100+ yards (313 & 106) in the same game...against the Rams on 10-19-14.

- Only one QB in NFL history had more than one season with more than 20 TD passes and 10 or fewer interceptions in his first three seasons: Wilson, who has had three such seasons.

- His 72 touchdowns are the seventh-most ever through a player’s first three seasons.

- Including the postseason, Wilson has 84 passing TD's in his first three seasons, 4th-most in NFL history.

- Including the postseason, Wilson has 97 passing and rushing TD's in his first three seasons, 3rd-most in NFL history.

- Wilson is ranked #12 all-time for most passing yards by a QB in his first three years with 9950 yards.

- Including the postseason, Wilson is ranked #5 all-time for passing yards by a QB in his first three years with 11770 yards.

- Wilson is ranked #5 all-time for most total yards (passing + rushing) by a QB in his first three years with 11827 yards.

- Including the postseason, Wilson is ranked #2 all-time for most total yards (passing and rushing) by a QB in his first three years with 13902 yards.

- Wilson has the 2nd highest career yards per attempt in SB history with 9.85 yards, behind only Terry Bradshaw.

- Wilson has the 3rd highest career passer rating in SB history with a 117.39, behind only Joe Montana and Jim Plunkett.

- Wilson has the 6th highest career completion % in SB history with 65.22%.

- Wilson has the 4th highest yards per attempt in a SB game with 11.76 yards in SB49.

- Wilson's 1,877 rushing yards is second-most by a QB in the modern era through three seasons behind Cam Newton's 2,032 yards.

- Including the postseason, Wilson has the most rushing yards for a QB in NFL history in his first three seasons with 2132 yards.

- Wilson led all NFL rushers in 2014 with an average of 7.2 yards per carry.

- Wilson has a record of having had a lead at some point in 56 straight games since 2012...the old record was 45 games...Also, in those 56 games, Wilson has never lost an NFL game by more than 9 points.

- Wilson has won 36 games in his first 3 seasons; three more than any other QB in NFL history.- Including the postseason, Wilson has won 42 games in his first three seasons; 6 more than any other QB in NFL history.

 

 

Wilson had a historic start in the NFL in an era where you could still hit a quarterback and play actual pass defense.  I fully expect Mahomes to shatter all records if he stays health, but man how everyone runs to the new shiny toy is a bit nuts.  Put some respect on this mans name.  He did more, with far less, in a much harder era than Mahomes is playing in. 

[JohnCena]

I want to see what Mahomes can do when he doesn't have a super offense. But yeah right now he's the best QB in the league and it ain't even close. Rodgers is lighting it up this year but you won't see Mahomes have a game like Rodgers had against Tampa Bay, and in the past 3 years Mahomes is by far better than everyone else it's not even close. I mean 107 touchdowns to only 20 picks and he's missed 4 games sheesh. Dude will most likely end shattering every QB record, but I do think it's also easier for QBs now I mean look at rookie qbs these days almost all rookies are a hit these days you don't see anyone failing. That being said no one is playing close to Mahomes then again, guys like Burrow, Herbert, Deshaun, etc also don't have Andy Reid that O-Line and those weapons at their disposal. I think we'll see more of this as the years go on, more and more 40-45+ touchdown seasons will likely happen in the future the way the game is right now so for me the GOAT will always be Brady unless Mahomes can somehow go and win 6+ rings. 

As for Russ he just needs to be more thoroughly consistent he can't just fall off in the middle of the season like this. I think Brady's character said it best on GridIronHeights of all things lmao -- Russ is this generations Brees, great QB but someone's always better. 🤷‍♂️

Edited December 8, 2020 by JohnCena

[ET80]

26 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

 I fully expect Mahomes to shatter all records if he stays healthy...

This is all you needed to say. What Wilson did was historic... but it's about to become irrelevant, Mahomes will now hold onto these benchmarks.

There's enough evidence that Mahomes is projecting MUCH higher than Wilson at this respective point, so why not "buy low" on it right now? Is it really that odd, given what we've seen? Unless you're trying to project some sort of injury... Mahomes is the guy.

[Saint_James]

28 minutes ago, ET80 said:

This is all you needed to say. What Wilson did was historic... but it's about to become irrelevant, Mahomes will now hold onto these benchmarks.

There's enough evidence that Mahomes is projecting MUCH higher than Wilson at this respective point, so why not "buy low" on it right now? Is it really that odd, given what we've seen? Unless you're trying to project some sort of injury... Mahomes is the guy.

 

"Irrelevant" ??

That's quite a word to use about the guy.  Why even have this discussion if we're going to take that approach?  I thought we were trying to compare QB's, not just say that best stats are all that matter?

I'm trying to be objective and compare team strength, degree of difficulty, and other factors.   I have no personal love for Russel Wilson but I'm not going to throw him into the trash bin so easily either.   The OP said take everything into consideration, am I wrong to try that?

Put Wilson on the Chiefs team right now and he doesn't thrive?  I think he thrives.  The Seahawks are 8-4 with the worst defense in the history of the NFL, ever.   Only historically great quarterbacks of our time like Russel Wilson, Aaron Rodgers, and Drew Brees can manufacture wins while carrying defenses, so that MUST be taken into account. 

[Archimedes]

52 minutes ago, JohnCena said:

I want to see what Mahomes can do when he doesn't have a super offense. But yeah right now he's the best QB in the league and it ain't even close. Rodgers is lighting it up this year but you won't see Mahomes have a game like Rodgers had against Tampa Bay, and in the past 3 years Mahomes is by far better than everyone else it's not even close. I mean 107 touchdowns to only 20 picks and he's missed 4 games sheesh. Dude will most likely end shattering every QB record, but I do think it's also easier for QBs now I mean look at rookie qbs these days almost all rookies are a hit these days you don't see anyone failing. That being said no one is playing close to Mahomes then again, guys like Burrow, Herbert, Deshaun, etc also don't have Andy Reid that O-Line and those weapons at their disposal. I think we'll see more of this as the years go on, more and more 40-45+ touchdown seasons will likely happen in the future the way the game is right now so for me the GOAT will always be Brady unless Mahomes can somehow go and win 6+ rings. 

As for Russ he just needs to be more thoroughly consistent he can't just fall off in the middle of the season like this. I think Brady's character said it best on GridIronHeights of all things lmao -- Russ is this generations Brees, great QB but someone's always better. 🤷‍♂️

I’m not trying to be snarky to you because you gave Mahomes 

 

1 hour ago, Saint_James said:

Have you seen Russel Wilson's?   This list was compiled right before Mahomes got his start:
 

- Wilson is the first QB in NFL history with a passer rating of over 95.0 in each of his first three seasons.

- Wilson has 24 games with a passer rating of 100+ in his first three seasons...more than any other QB in NFL history. Flacco, Marino, and Palmer are tied for second with 19.

- Wilson leads all QB’s in the NFL over the last 3 years with 10- 4th quarter comebacks and 15- game-winning drives. No other QB in NFL history has ever done this in their first 3 years.

- He is one of only five players with at least 20 touchdown passes in each of first three seasons.

- Wilson is the first and only QB in the Super Bowl era to have average yards per attempt of 7.6 or better in each of his first three seasons.

- Wilson’s career yards per passing attempt of 7.9 is fourth-best of all QB’s since 1951.

- Wilson is ranked #1 in career postseason yards per attempt. His career average of 9.01 (min. 200 pass attempts) is the highest in NFL history.

- Wilson is the only QB in NFL history to appear in two SB's in his first three seasons.

- Wilson holds the record for most passing yards in a playoff game by a rookie QB with 385 yards. The old record was set in 1937 by Sammy Baugh with 335 yards...that record stood for 75 years.

- Wilson is ranked at #2 in all-time career passer rating (min. 1200 attempts) with a 98.6. Only Aaron Rodgers has a higher career passer rating.

- Wilson's passer rating of 98.6 for a player’s first 3 years is the best in NFL history.

- Including postseason, Wilson's passer rating of 98.5 for a player's first three years is the best in NFL history.

- Wilson's postseason passer rating of 97.8 in his first three years is the best in NFL history.

- Wilson’s career postseason passer rating of 97.8 (min. 200 attempts) is the 5th best in NFL history.

- Wilson's TD% of 5.8% in his first three years is the 2nd highest in NFL history; only Dan Marino is higher with 6.9%.

- Wilson's INT% of 2.1% in his first three years is the lowest of any QB in NFL history.

- Wilson is ranked #2 all-time with a career TD to INT ratio of 2.77 (min. 1200 attempts) behind only Rodgers.

- Wilson is ranked #3 all-time with a career INT rate of only 2.1%, behind only Rodgers and Brady.

- Wilson is the first and only QB in NFL history to throw for 300+ yards and run for 100+ yards (313 & 106) in the same game...against the Rams on 10-19-14.

- Only one QB in NFL history had more than one season with more than 20 TD passes and 10 or fewer interceptions in his first three seasons: Wilson, who has had three such seasons.

- His 72 touchdowns are the seventh-most ever through a player’s first three seasons.

- Including the postseason, Wilson has 84 passing TD's in his first three seasons, 4th-most in NFL history.

- Including the postseason, Wilson has 97 passing and rushing TD's in his first three seasons, 3rd-most in NFL history.

- Wilson is ranked #12 all-time for most passing yards by a QB in his first three years with 9950 yards.

- Including the postseason, Wilson is ranked #5 all-time for passing yards by a QB in his first three years with 11770 yards.

- Wilson is ranked #5 all-time for most total yards (passing + rushing) by a QB in his first three years with 11827 yards.

- Including the postseason, Wilson is ranked #2 all-time for most total yards (passing and rushing) by a QB in his first three years with 13902 yards.

- Wilson has the 2nd highest career yards per attempt in SB history with 9.85 yards, behind only Terry Bradshaw.

- Wilson has the 3rd highest career passer rating in SB history with a 117.39, behind only Joe Montana and Jim Plunkett.

- Wilson has the 6th highest career completion % in SB history with 65.22%.

- Wilson has the 4th highest yards per attempt in a SB game with 11.76 yards in SB49.

- Wilson's 1,877 rushing yards is second-most by a QB in the modern era through three seasons behind Cam Newton's 2,032 yards.

- Including the postseason, Wilson has the most rushing yards for a QB in NFL history in his first three seasons with 2132 yards.

- Wilson led all NFL rushers in 2014 with an average of 7.2 yards per carry.

- Wilson has a record of having had a lead at some point in 56 straight games since 2012...the old record was 45 games...Also, in those 56 games, Wilson has never lost an NFL game by more than 9 points.

- Wilson has won 36 games in his first 3 seasons; three more than any other QB in NFL history.- Including the postseason, Wilson has won 42 games in his first three seasons; 6 more than any other QB in NFL history.

 

 

Wilson had a historic start in the NFL in an era where you could still hit a quarterback and play actual pass defense.  I fully expect Mahomes to shatter all records if he stays health, but man how everyone runs to the new shiny toy is a bit nuts.  Put some respect on this mans name.  He did more, with far less, in a much harder era than Mahomes is playing in. 

For starters, 2012-2017 was not a markedly harder defensive era than the current one. Moreover, their careers have overlapped the last 3 seasons, this is the prime of Russ’s career, whereas Mahomes has yet to actually enter his physical prime, and Mahomes has consistently put up better numbers.

Last but not least, when Russ started his career, he was good, but he didn’t bust in the door as a generational talent. This seems to be a recurring myth that’s been getting spouted quite a bunch lately.