Is Alvin Kamara the best Running Back in the NFL? (Part 2)

[SmittyBacall]

5 hours ago, ET80 said:

Would you prefer knife in the back or bludgeoned by a hammer?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion - and I really value yours, you're one of the best posters here - so I'm curious to this stance. Why do you think this?

First of all, what an honor it is to receive that complement. Likewise, ET. I’ll try to answer as best I can, right or wrong. Let me also say I have no statistical evidence to back this particular argument up. This is completely based on watching as many games as I can, so take that as you will.

In hindsight, my comment was a bit click-baity. To clarify, I think Henry is a very good back, even a great back, but overrated in the sense that I do not think he is regarded as the leagues best back, which I see often argued. I believe that for a few reasons...

First, he’s not a plus-receiving option. Can he catch a screen or screen pass? Sure. Can he create consistent separation lined up out wide? No. In a passing league, regardless of what offense he’s involved in, that counts for something and diminishes his value. If we’re going to try to be as objective as possible making these rankings, all RB responsibilities should be considered (rushing, receiving, blocking). Henry falls short there for me.

Secondly, and I’ll probably get lambasted for this, and maybe I’m off base, but I think his production is more dependent on competent blocking than other backs in this coversation, and he struggles to create his own yards at or before the first level - this does not mean I think Henry is a by product of his OL (I’ll try to explain), though it certainly helps his numbers. Henry is truly dominant at the second level, and once he gets going his size/speed combo and stiff-arm is incredibly difficult to contain and he can take it the distance from almost anywhere, but the caveat here is he needs space to create that head of steam. I don’t often see him making guys miss early or behind the line of scrimmage and creating positive yardage when there is nothing there. I value the traits of backs like Kamara, Barkley, Mixon, etc. who can do more with less (that’s not to say those RBs are necessarily better, they just have that trait). The Titans run-blocking doesn’t get much credit, but they should, because they pave some massive lanes for Henry and were especially dominant during last years surprise playoff run. Point being, stick Kamara behind a bad line and I think he’d be more successful than a back like Henry in the same situation. If you can do more with less, I value that more.

Overall, I inherently don’t like these rankings threads because there is no set definition of what constitutes one player being “better”, and they change too frequently year to year based on who’s producing the most at the moment. Not to mention differences between the top tier players at most positions are negligible and mostly preference-based anyway, I don’t really go for ranking players by anything more specific than tiers. If someone had Henry at 1 it wouldn’t keep me up at night, but it’s also not who I would choose based on my own criteria. Personally, I see Kamara and McCaffery as the leagues best backs on Tier 1, with guys like Henry, Chubb, Zeke, Barkley etc. battling it out on the 2nd Tier. 

Go ahead, shoot me.

[GSUeagles14]

2 hours ago, Tk3 said:

Honestly.. I don't even know why we debate players who are so different sometimes

We're borderline not even arguing who the better player is, as much as what playstyle we prefer

It's like Tyreke Hill vs DK Metcalf, only even more pronounced. There are some who will never put a 5'10" guy in the same category as an equally effective 6'5" guy, and some will say the reverse if a guy can't run under 4.3

It almost isn't even worth trying and just agreeing that right now Henry and Kamara are the best of their respective archetypes

the bolded just isnt true. I dont think anyone has said Henry is the best because they dont value pass catching, @ET80 can correct me if im wrong but I believe his stance is that Henry is such an animal running the ball he doesnt care that he doesnt play a huge part in the pass game. And even the example about wr's is off. Hopkins is neither of those example but some view him as the best. Ifs ok to rank guys, its ok for your preferred option ot be 3rd instead fo first. I dont get the point of saying lets not rank anyone, everyones great. CMC still exists so your statement that Kamara is the best at his style is puzzling as well. Whether you have Henry, CMC or Cook as the best i really struggle to see an argument outside of those 3.

[-Hope-]

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

Secondly, and I’ll probably get lambasted for this, and maybe I’m off base, but I think his production is more dependent on competent blocking than other backs in this coversation, and he struggles to create his own yards at or before the first level - this does not mean I think Henry is a by product of his OL (I’ll try to explain), though it certainly helps his numbers. Henry is truly dominant at the second level, and once he gets going his size/speed combo and stiff-arm is incredibly difficult to contain and he can take it the distance from almost anywhere, but the caveat here is he needs space to create that head of steam. I don’t often see him making guys miss early or behind the line of scrimmage and creating positive yardage when there is nothing there. I value the traits of backs like Kamara, Barkley, Mixon, etc. who can do more with less (that’s not to say those RBs are necessarily better, they just have that trait). The Titans run-blocking doesn’t get much credit, but they should, because they pave some massive lanes for Henry and were especially dominant during last years surprise playoff run. Point being, stick Kamara behind a bad line and I think he’d be more successful than a back like Henry in the same situation. If you can do more with less, I value that more.

Overall, I inherently don’t like these rankings threads because there is no set definition of what constitutes one player being “better”, and they change too frequently year to year based on who’s producing the most at the moment. Not to mention differences between the top tier players at most positions are negligible and mostly preference-based anyway, I don’t really go for ranking players by anything more specific than tiers. If someone had Henry at 1 it wouldn’t keep me up at night, but it’s also not who I would choose based on my own criteria. Personally, I see Kamara and McCaffery as the leagues best backs on Tier 1, with guys like Henry, Chubb, Zeke, Barkley etc. battling it out on the 2nd Tier. 

Go ahead, shoot me.

i mean, i'm a titans and henry fan and even i don't think you're totally off base with this. the simple fact is that if you get to henry very early before he gets going, you're probably gonna have a good day. however, that's difficult not only due to tennessee's offensive line but also henry's vision and aptitude at executing in a zone scheme. he's a decisive runner who has become extremely good at pressing gaps and making quick decisions in a way that makes it ambiguous which hole he's going to hit, which stalls defenders just enough to prevent them from shooting gaps. the overtime run vs. baltimore this year is a great example of that. i will also contest the idea that he can't create something out of nothing- as matt judon and a whole carousel of 260+ lb defensive lineman can attest, he bounces off or stiff-arms big men right at the LOS with reasonable regularity and can turn those into huge plays where i suspect most other backs would go down. but you are correct that in situations where he has to shake someone behind the LOS or similar, that's not a good bet. ironically, i think you're almost better off getting a fast LB or a DB into the backfield than a D-lineman, as he might power through them but it's much less likely that he's going to shake them off if they go low before he can get up to speed.

the thing, though, is that if you get him that hole, even one that you wouldn't think he'd be able to get through, he's going to do more with it than perhaps any other back in the league. that's the trade-off. so i don't think your reasoning is wrong, but personally i'd put him in tier 1 off that strength alone simply because it's dominant to a pretty ridiculous extent. but then, i've got my two-tone blue shades on.

[ttitansfan4life]

There’s people out there that still think there are running backs better than King Henry? Yikes

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

First, he’s not a plus-receiving option. Can he catch a screen or screen pass? Sure. Can he create consistent separation lined up out wide? No. In a passing league, regardless of what offense he’s involved in, that counts for something and diminishes his value. If we’re going to try to be as objective as possible making these rankings, all RB responsibilities should be considered (rushing, receiving, blocking). Henry falls short there for me.

Secondly, and I’ll probably get lambasted for this, and maybe I’m off base, but I think his production is more dependent on competent blocking than other backs in this coversation, and he struggles to create his own yards at or before the first level - this does not mean I think Henry is a by product of his OL (I’ll try to explain), though it certainly helps his numbers. 

Go ahead, shoot me.

On the first point: I will absolutely not argue that Henry is on the level of Kamara or McCaffrey as a receiver, because that's a dumb argument.  I will say that Henry's ability as a pass catcher are underrated.  He doesn't get the ball thrown to him often because the Titans really just don't need to do that.  The underneath game is pretty much made irrelevant by Henry getting 5.8 yards a carry against stacked boxes.  He can catch, but why bother using him as a receiver when you don't need to?  AJ Brown still needs the ball sometimes.

As for that being of equal value, I'll push back against that idea hard.  I know people that think receivers don't really matter that much because you need a QB that can utilize them and an OL that can protect that QB long enough for them to utilize them.  That applies to pass catching RBs as well.  That's one reason I have Henry over Kamara: put Kamara on a team with a ****ty QB, and his production probably plummets.  Henry doesn't need that.

On the second point: you're not 100% wrong.  The Titans have a good run blocking OL.  But they've also been playing their third string left tackle most of this season, lost Conklin after last season (who played very badly in 2018) and had to live through the Nate Davis growing pains in 2019 and the Roger Saffold growing pains in 2018.  Through all of that turnover, Henry has been a beast.

I do sincerely think that Henry would thrive, even with a bad OL.  He wouldn't be the league's leading rusher, but he'd be the Saquon Barkley type: an obvious talent that the fanbase would be screaming to get help for.

And I know I'm a Titans fan and biased, but I'm also a Vols fan, and have been for longer than I've been a Titans fan.  I love Kamara too, but in my (hopefully, mostly) unbiased opinion, Henry is better.

[SmittyBacall]

2 hours ago, -Hope- said:

i mean, i'm a titans and henry fan and even i don't think you're totally off base with this. the simple fact is that if you get to henry very early before he gets going, you're probably gonna have a good day. however, that's difficult not only due to tennessee's offensive line but also henry's vision and aptitude at executing in a zone scheme. he's a decisive runner who has become extremely good at pressing gaps and making quick decisions in a way that makes it ambiguous which hole he's going to hit, which stalls defenders just enough to prevent them from shooting gaps. the overtime run vs. baltimore this year is a great example of that. i will also contest the idea that he can't create something out of nothing- as matt judon and a whole carousel of 260+ lb defensive lineman can attest, he bounces off or stiff-arms big men right at the LOS with reasonable regularity and can turn those into huge plays where i suspect most other backs would go down. but you are correct that in situations where he has to shake someone behind the LOS or similar, that's not a good bet. ironically, i think you're almost better off getting a fast LB or a DB into the backfield than a D-lineman, as he might power through them but it's much less likely that he's going to shake them off if they go low before he can get up to speed.

the thing, though, is that if you get him that hole, even one that you wouldn't think he'd be able to get through, he's going to do more with it than perhaps any other back in the league. that's the trade-off. so i don't think your reasoning is wrong, but personally i'd put him in tier 1 off that strength alone simply because it's dominant to a pretty ridiculous extent. but then, i've got my two-tone blue shades on.

Certainly can’t disagree with any of this. Just to add to this, I will say in terms of gaining positive yardage in tough situations, he’s much better at creating laterally outside the tackles more so than inside. On the outside he’s got the speed to get to the edge and the vine-like arms to keep tacklers at bay. But inside he doesn’t have the momentum and he’s a tall target for form tackling. 

[GSUeagles14]

21 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

Certainly can’t disagree with any of this. Just to add to this, I will say in terms of gaining positive yardage in tough situations, he’s much better at creating laterally outside the tackles more so than inside. On the outside he’s got the speed to get to the edge and the vine-like arms to keep tacklers at bay. But inside he doesn’t have the momentum and he’s a tall target for form tackling. 

While what you said is true, even a perfect forum tackle doesnt always work when a guy is as big and physically strong as henry is. hes listed at 240, id say hes 10 lbs heavier than that but even if we take google at its word, hes 20 lbs heavier than a lot of linebackers these days.

[tyler735]

 

[Bearerofnews]

Henry is the best rb in the league.

 

/discussion.

[GamedayGuru]

On 11/30/2020 at 6:39 PM, Yin-Yang said:

The point wasn’t to compare their total touches, the point is showing the massive discrepancy you’ll see when looking at yards per carry and yards per catch. Receivers and receiving backs virtually always have higher YPAs than running backs. Putting the two together and saying “shrug, yards are yards” is ignorant or deceptive.

Guys like riddick and white aren’t the same caliber runner as Kamara is, so your point is invalid. 

[Jakuvious]

6 rushing TDs in one game is more of a team and situational accomplishment, than it is an individual record.

I'm going to leave now.

[tyler735]

Checks the record book...Nope, looks like it has Kamara listed not situational/team record listed.

[bucsfan333]

Derrick Henry is just shy of 1,700 yards with two games left and he still has a legitimate shot at rushing for 2,000 yards this season.

[Tk3]

I stand by my opinion that Henry is the best traditional runningback, and Kamara is the best receiving back, and that its okay to rank them both as if they are different positions

If one guy rushes 350-400 times and barely catches the ball, its a different class of player than one who rushes 200+ times and is targeted 100+ times

It's weird that in 2020 we still classify them both as running backs.. One is a running back and one is like.. a flex player or something and we need to be more comfortable calling them different things

[Forge]

39 minutes ago, bucsfan333 said:

Derrick Henry is just shy of 1,700 yards with two games left and he still has a legitimate shot at rushing for 2,000 yards this season.

And those games are against green bay and houston. Hot damn.