Week 4: WFT (1-2) vs. Ravens (2-1) 1 PM on CBS

[MikeT14]

10 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Not directed at you at all. I know you’re reasonable and open to the idea that Dwayne could develop, you just want to see him do it. Others, don’t seem to want to give him the chance.

There’s no doubt he has to do it again, it’s a week to week league.

No, but in all honestly, through 4 games, I went in with a very open mind, and it soured quickly over the 4 weeks. I, also of course, would rather him play the whole season. I don't need to see Kyle Allen. 

There's been good, there's been bad, there's been very bad. You're right, the last thing we saw was "good". Keep it up kid.

[Woz]

On 10/6/2020 at 10:59 AM, turtle28 said:

There’s also the fact that this is the only season in team history where they seem to actually be doing a true rebuild - going with being amongst the youngest - or the youngest - teams in the league. 

Well, this statement did not age well. 😅🤣

On 10/6/2020 at 10:59 AM, turtle28 said:

I find it crazy that people in this board and even Washington fans in general have been clamoring for them to just tear it all down and rebuild from scratch since 2010 and even before and we haven’t done it - not even Shanahan really did it - and now we are and people now don’t have the patience to do actually do it? What?

To be fair, the coaching staff doesn't seem to have the patience for this either.

On 10/6/2020 at 10:59 AM, turtle28 said:

Don’t forget Gibbs inherited a veteran QB ready to go in Theisman and then won his next Super Bowl with a veteran in Doug Williams and his final Super Bowl with a younger veteran but still a veteran that they had been developing for 5 years or so in Rypien who didn’t start until he was in his late 20s, he developed for years behind Schroeder and Doug Williams before he got his chance.

Also don't forget that all of that happened pre-free agency when teams could effectively park a QB for 3-4 years and the player had no say in the matter.

On 10/6/2020 at 10:59 AM, turtle28 said:

Yes, yes I know Lavar, we won’t trade Ryan Kerrigan, but we all know why that is, that’s bc Dan Snyder won’t let Rivera do it and, there’s still a chance we do trade Kerrigan this month but I doubt we do, Snyder wants him to retire in Washington, whether that’s next year or after a shorter contract that he signs here to stay a few more years.

Yesterday, I might have nodded along with this. Today, though? I'm not sure I would agree with this now.

For better or ill, Rivera has made this his team. We'll see if this gamble truly pays off (my thoughts on that will be moved over to the other thread).

[Woz]

On 10/6/2020 at 11:25 AM, PARROTHEAD said:

But... But... But Jamarcus had 11 good plays out of 68. And the Oline held up perfect 4 times. I even saw a linebacker make a tackle and a Non Mclauren WR make a catch. So theres potential. We just need to nurture it along. Then add draft picks and pick up some FAs. Thats all it takes. Other teams will be mystified at such a sure fire plan and fall to the wayside as we march to the Super Bowl.

Or so Im  told anyway. 🙄

Be careful what you wish for ... you might just get it.

[Woz]

On 10/6/2020 at 12:00 PM, Troublez said:

There is potential. I have found comfort in Rivera's approach. I was clamoring for Dwayne's starting status during the Brown's game but I have since regained my composure.  Rivera is rebuilding -  my advice, just graduate from a 6 pack to 18 pack on Sundays. Then take it all in with a goofy smile on your face. About all we can do this season.

What say you now, @Troublez? (this is me honestly asking, no snark intended)

[Troublez]

1 hour ago, Woz said:

What say you now, @Troublez? (this is me honestly asking, no snark intended)

I am unsure what to say - honestly, I watched the press conference and Rivera seemed disingenuous with his replies. Some of which, did not really answer the question.... just redundantly stated this is the direction the team is headed (with little to no support, a wait and see approach). In short, his decision today was polar opposite what he has been preaching. 

But I can't fault him for making this decision. I watch the games / tape.... Haskins mechanics are terrible. Also, to me this likely has a lot to do with his inability to grow, own up to mistakes and etc. Haskins appears to be, at times, making excuses and not showing an ability to objectively identify problems in his game. If I was calling the shots - nothing would infuriate me more. Haskins demeanor annoys me in this regard.

Tl;dr - This all seems bizarre but I trust Coach. He owes the TEAM the best approach to win games. Also - upgrading from an 18 pack to a 30 rack for game days here on out.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Troublez

[turtle28]

Damn! If we had just started Kyle Allen at FS - I mean QB - we would’ve won this game!

That can’t be what the coaching staff is thinking!

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by turtle28

[pf9]

The rivalry between the Washington Football Team and the city of Baltimore has largely been dominated by the latter city, which has had three NFL teams since 1950.

Washington won both games against the first Colts, and two of the first three against the second Colts.for an overall 4-1 start against Baltimore teams. For the remainder of the second Colts' existence in Baltimore, they were the more popular team of the two, and this reflected in the on-field results. 14 of the last 17 Baltimore-Washington games involving the second Colts were won by the Colts.

The Colts and WFT experienced concurrent success through much of the 1970s, but by the turn of the 1980s the Colts were in decline, and Washington hired Joe Gibbs around that time. Between 1982 and 1991, Washington won three Super Bowls, while the Colts relocated to Indianapolis in 1984.

Washington's 1991 championship season was also the peak they had since the merger, going 14-2 that season. They regressed to 9-7 the next year but still made the playoffs, however they have not won 11 or more games in a season since 1991. Following the first retirement of Gibbs, Washington has only had three 10-win seasons (all of which resulted in playoff appearances), 2 playoff appearances as a 9-7 team, 3 other 7-loss seasons, 2 playoff game wins, and only twice finishing over .500 in back to back seasons (with only one playoff appearance between those four seasons), they have not had consecutive playoff seasons since 1990-92, nor a first round bye since 1991.

In contrast, the Ravens, established in 1996, have only had four losing seasons since first finishing .500 in 1999. They have made 12 playoff appearances including two Super Bowl wins, establishing themselves as the more popular and successful NFL team of the BaltWash corridor.

I feel that if Washington is to return to its former glory, they need to trade up to a high draft spot next year and pick a good QB prospect. They did have a 2-win streak against the Ravens in 2012 and 2016, their first multi-game win streak over a Baltimore team since the 1950s. Overall, Washington now stands at 3-4 against the Ravens, and 10-19 against Baltimore teams in general.

I am serious about needing to trade up to a high draft slot next year, especially if by some miracle they win the NFC East, which would nominally put them in the bottom 14 in the first round.

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, pf9 said:

The rivalry between the Washington Football Team and the city of Baltimore has largely been dominated by the latter city, which has had three NFL teams since 1950.

Washington won both games against the first Colts, and two of the first three against the second Colts.for an overall 4-1 start against Baltimore teams. For the remainder of the second Colts' existence in Baltimore, they were the more popular team of the two, and this reflected in the on-field results. 14 of the last 17 Baltimore-Washington games involving the second Colts were won by the Colts.

The Colts and WFT experienced concurrent success through much of the 1970s, but by the turn of the 1980s the Colts were in decline, and Washington hired Joe Gibbs around that time. Between 1982 and 1991, Washington won three Super Bowls, while the Colts relocated to Indianapolis in 1984.

Washington's 1991 championship season was also the peak they had since the merger, going 14-2 that season. They regressed to 9-7 the next year but still made the playoffs, however they have not won 11 or more games in a season since 1991. Following the first retirement of Gibbs, Washington has only had three 10-win seasons (all of which resulted in playoff appearances), 2 playoff appearances as a 9-7 team, 3 other 7-loss seasons, 2 playoff game wins, and only twice finishing over .500 in back to back seasons (with only one playoff appearance between those four seasons), they have not had consecutive playoff seasons since 1990-92, nor a first round bye since 1991.

In contrast, the Ravens, established in 1996, have only had four losing seasons since first finishing .500 in 1999. They have made 12 playoff appearances including two Super Bowl wins, establishing themselves as the more popular and successful NFL team of the BaltWash corridor.

I feel that if Washington is to return to its former glory, they need to trade up to a high draft spot next year and pick a good QB prospect. They did have a 2-win streak against the Ravens in 2012 and 2016, their first multi-game win streak over a Baltimore team since the 1950s. Overall, Washington now stands at 3-4 against the Ravens, and 10-19 against Baltimore teams in general.

I am serious about needing to trade up to a high draft slot next year, especially if by some miracle they win the NFC East, which would nominally put them in the bottom 14 in the first round.

To take who? Justin Fields? Zach Wilson? Both who are good QB prospects but don’t seem to be near elite QB prospects. I’m very leery of making a huge trade up for any player as it seems it doesn’t work out more often than not. I’d rather not put all my eggs in one basket.

Nice historical post though, I loved it. But, guess what, the Baltimore Ravens didn’t trade up for Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Jamal Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Joe Flacco or Lamar Jackson or anyone that I can remember tbh.

I wouldn’t trade up very high for a QB or anyone. A few spots to get your guy if you think someone is going to grab them but giving up 2 firsts again for one player is a big No for me.

Edited December 29, 2020 by turtle28

[Woz]

[e16bball]

2 hours ago, turtle28 said:

But, guess what, the Baltimore Ravens didn’t trade up for Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Jamal Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Joe Flacco or Lamar Jackson or anyone that I can remember tbh.

They did trade up to get Lamar. They also traded up for Flacco. And they also traded up for Haloti Ngata (a little at least), as well as a couple other guys who didn’t pan out.

The Ravens are one of the best teams at understanding where the value is and finding their way in the draft order to those pockets of surplus value. They trade up, they (even more frequently) trade down, they used to trade out of the 1st or 2nd round entirely to get future picks. That latter method is what landed them the picks they used on Ray Lewis and Jamal Lewis, for example.

The point is, as it always is, you have to be able to determine whether you can get more potential value from moving up for more quality or moving down for more quantity as compared to just staying put. More often than not, no worthwhile trade will materialize — but I find the idea that you shouldn’t ever trade up or trade down, and just always sit at your largely randomly assigned pick, to be really bizarre. That’s certainly not the Ravens’ approach, and anything they do, we should probably consider adopting.

[MikeT14]

C'mon @pf9 don't bump old threads like this. Your point is probably thread worthy on it's own merit. Or in another thread we have. 

[turtle28]

8 hours ago, e16bball said:

They did trade up to get Lamar. They also traded up for Flacco. And they also traded up for Haloti Ngata (a little at least), as well as a couple other guys who didn’t pan out.

The Ravens are one of the best teams at understanding where the value is and finding their way in the draft order to those pockets of surplus value. They trade up, they (even more frequently) trade down, they used to trade out of the 1st or 2nd round entirely to get future picks. That latter method is what landed them the picks they used on Ray Lewis and Jamal Lewis, for example.

The point is, as it always is, you have to be able to determine whether you can get more potential value from moving up for more quality or moving down for more quantity as compared to just staying put. More often than not, no worthwhile trade will materialize — but I find the idea that you shouldn’t ever trade up or trade down, and just always sit at your largely randomly assigned pick, to be really bizarre. That’s certainly not the Ravens’ approach, and anything they do, we should probably consider adopting.

I didn’t realize they traded up for those guys, but even since they did they didn’t do what @pf9 is suggesting and trade up as much as 17 spots giving up this years 2nd and next years 1st and our 2022 first round pick or a good player or some kind of combination of that.

I can definitely understand moving up or back 5-10 spots or so in the draft to get the guy you want or trade back if there’s like 10 guys you have graded about the same, what I don’t want to see is us putting 3 or 4 huge eggs in one basket again like we did in 2012.

Everyone knows RG3 getting hurt and not panning out set our franchise back years, even with Kirk becoming a good starting QB bc we missed out on 4 other possible starters. 
 

We just can’t do that again IMO. 
 

If we hadn’t traded up we could’ve taken: Tanehill at 6 (who I think the Shanahan’s liked a lot and I remember @footy_29 liking) or we could’ve taken Gilmore, Kuechly, Poe, Fletcher Cox or Brockers to bolster our defensive front 7.

2012 second round we could’ve taken: Janoris Jenkins, Alshon Jeffery, Cordy Glenn, Bobby Wagner, LaVonte David, Casey Hayward, Zach Brown, Mychal Kendricks, Coby Fleener, Dwayne Allen or Trumaine Johnson, etc

2013 first round we could’ve taken:

DeAndre Hopkins, Trufant, Xavier Rhodes, Alec Ogeltree, Travis Frederick, Zach Ertz, Darius Slay, Giovani Bernard, Robert Woods, Kawaan Short, Le’Veon Bell, Kevin Minter, Jonathan Hankins, etc

 

2014 first round we could’ve taken:

Khalil Mack, Sammy Watkins, Mike Evans, Jake Matthew’s, Anthony Barr, O’Dell Beckham, Aaron Donald, Taylor Lewan, Kyle Fuller, Zach Martin, Ryan Shazier, CJ Mosley, etc.

So yeah, I’m not a fan of trading up too high from where we end up being and losing future 1st round and 2nd round picks. I’d rather take the BPA when we draft. 

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, MikeT14 said:

C'mon @pf9 don't bump old threads like this. Your point is probably thread worthy on it's own merit. Or in another thread we have. 

I don’t think he knows really, he’s not around very much. Really odd that he hasn’t posted much and then choose to go back all the way to this thread but I guess it’s about Baltimore vs Washington and that’s why.

Still, definitely could use its own thread. Can you make his post it’s own thread?

I think it’d be a good discussion.

[MikeT14]

10 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

I don’t think he knows really, he’s not around very much. Really odd that he hasn’t posted much and then choose to go back all the way to this thread but I guess it’s about Baltimore vs Washington and that’s why.

Still, definitely could use its own thread. Can you make his post it’s own thread?

I think it’d be a good discussion.

He's around a lot of subforums. 

I don't have that power in this forum, but if nap or Thai want to they can.

[e16bball]

2 hours ago, turtle28 said:

I can definitely understand moving up or back 5-10 spots or so in the draft to get the guy you want or trade back if there’s like 10 guys you have graded about the same, what I don’t want to see is us putting 3 or 4 huge eggs in one basket again like we did in 2012.

I’m good with this. At least not for the likes of Fields, Wilson, Lance, Trask, Jones, etc. If you’re making such a mega trade-up, it absolutely has to be for a guy with a combination of unusually high ceiling and unusually high certainty of reaching it. There is a player who might fit that criteria, but his next team won’t be silly enough to let him get away. We definitely can’t make the mistake we did in 2012, failing to secure the generational talent and making the same high-investment move to get the next best guy, who happens to be much more of a project. 

But as you said, smaller trade-ups — like those where you might move 5-10 spots for the cost of another pick — can work out well. Won’t belabor the point too much, but imagine if we had fallen in love with Patrick Mahomes or Deshaun Watson in 2017. We could have traded up to 10 or 12, as the Chiefs and Texans did, probably just by offering 17 and our 2nd round pick. We would then have been trading Jonathan Allen and Ryan Anderson for a superstar QB. I love Jon Allen, but our DL would still be great and we’d be probably the hottest team in the league if those QBs had panned out here as they did there.

In the end, it all comes down to the quality of your evaluation (which is why it kills me that they’re going to risk losing Kyle Smith). If you correctly evaluated the players available, the move you make will look smart. If the QB you trade up for is a Mahomes, there’s almost no price tag too high and you’ll look like a genius for moving up. If the QB is a Griffin, a Haskins, or even a Cousins — well, then you don’t look quite so sharp.

You can never be certain, which is why I agree that you should almost never make a life like the RG3 deal. But you do have to be bold and trust your read.