Week 4 GDT: Saints (1-2) at Lions (1-2)

[LionArkie]

5 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

It is but you have to build on something. We're far from even being in that position. If Detroit is winning 10-6 year after year and winning close games time after time.. I'll gladly take it over this series of blown double digit leads. 

Fair enough. I still think this same line of thinking was not afforded to Caldwell.  Now, I get BQ wanted his guy so it is a little different, but...screw it...I'm just jaded right now.  I want him to go.

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I agree that it looks that way right now. (Because it does.) If we rattle off a handful of wins against equal or lesser teams, it might look differently.

I'm with @LionArkie on the 5 year plan and timeline. It's not even the L's last year that are the tipping point for me. We struggled running the ball and somehow wound up with AP this year. The defense has consistently been a colander and we haven't been able to stop the run or get to the QB. The DL is getting pushed back even on passing plays. 

There is nothing from other parts of the team last year that we have seen on the field to hang our hat on and be optimistic that we'll see a different result on the field. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

8 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

I'm with @LionArkie on the 5 year plan and timeline. It's not even the L's last year that are the tipping point for me. We struggled running the ball and somehow wound up with AP this year. The defense has consistently been a colander and we haven't been able to stop the run or get to the QB. The DL is getting pushed back even on passing plays. 

There is nothing from other parts of the team last year that we have seen on the field to hang our hat on and be optimistic that we'll see a different result on the field. 

See, that's the part that confuses me. We've invested a significant amount of cap and picks on the OLine. I supported those decisions. We have two 2nd round RBs: Swift wasn't my pick, but I "got it". Why are we still struggling to run the ball with anyone not named Adrian Peterson?

The defensive struggles are also a concern. I remember Patricia's first year, and how the defense struggled... until we traded for Snacks. Boom. Everything changed.

There's a lot that I don't get about what's happening right now, but it doesn't mean I pull the plug and start over... again. We just finished the first quarter of the season. I don't think you give up after the first quarter.

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

See, that's the part that confuses me. We've invested a significant amount of cap and picks on the OLine. I supported those decisions. We have two 2nd round RBs: Swift wasn't my pick, but I "got it". Why are we still struggling to run the ball with anyone not named Adrian Peterson?

The defensive struggles are also a concern. I remember Patricia's first year, and how the defense struggled... until we traded for Snacks. Boom. Everything changed.

There's a lot that I don't get about what's happening right now, but it doesn't mean I pull the plug and start over... again. We just finished the first quarter of the season. I don't think you give up after the first quarter.

This is where I must fit right in between you and @Nnivolcm. He wanted Quintricia gone before this season, which I thought was pulling the plug too early. They now have had 3 off-seasons to build the team in the way that they have wanted to. We're seeing a consistent theme year after year with the issues at hand - a defense that can't stop the run, we can't run the ball and we're blowing double digit leads at a historical level. If we were starting to progress and move forward positively with wins over the Bears, Cardinals and Saints then I would be willing to move on and forget what happened with Slay, the 6-10 and 3-13 seasons, the defensive struggles, etc. Since that isn't the case then I do bring that stuff into the equation because it is and has been consistent during his tenure. We can't chalk it up to growing into the position, coming in late after a long post-season run or not having 'his guys' on the roster. 

What we're doing isn't working. We have a decent sample size from this year to see whether prior year issues have been resolved. Unfortunately we are going to be staring down another rebuild unless the Fords use the BS covid/no off-season excuse. 

[LionArkie]

46 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

See, that's the part that confuses me. We've invested a significant amount of cap and picks on the OLine. I supported those decisions. We have two 2nd round RBs: Swift wasn't my pick, but I "got it". Why are we still struggling to run the ball with anyone not named Adrian Peterson?

The defensive struggles are also a concern. I remember Patricia's first year, and how the defense struggled... until we traded for Snacks. Boom. Everything changed.

There's a lot that I don't get about what's happening right now, but it doesn't mean I pull the plug and start over... again. We just finished the first quarter of the season. I don't think you give up after the first quarter.

This is where I think BQ is the issue.  IF BQ would have built this team from the front to back, I think MP might have a chance at winning. We saw what he could do with someone who could control the middle of the dline. That defense looked pretty good.  I also think BQ's obsession with taking backups and making them starters is  another issue. On the other hand, are all the NE cast offs BQ is bringing in due to MP not being able to relate to anyone else in the league?  I don't know which is the bigger issue BQ or MP and I want to know right now.  I don't want to find out next year. I believe MP's fate is sealed, so now I want to know about BQ.

[Nnivolcm]

7 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

What is the benefit of keeping Patricia for the remainder of the season? What is the plus side to keeping him until the end of the year?

His incompetence increases the draft capital for the next regime to hopefully get their rebuild going faster. 

[Karnage84]

9 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

His incompetence increases the draft capital for the next regime to hopefully get their rebuild going faster. 

What benefit would it have to ownership and/or the current players on the roster? Also, while it might increase their first round pick it would mitigate mid-season trades that could net extra draft capital. 

If you're ownership, firing Patricia earlier would feel more beneficial to me.

1) You are still assessing Bob Quinn. Has he been a part of the issue or has he provided the talent and the coaching staff hasn't developed them and/or the scheme has been a hindrance;

2) sending a message to fans and other members of the organization that losing is not accepted. I know you are of the feeling that message could/should have been delivered before this season. I'm of the belief that was pre-mature, even knowing where we're at right now. It tells the players that they are competing for roster spots under a new HC and/or GM. 

3) You can start your search process early. Even if you can't evaluate the prospects up close and in interviews, you can watch the games and create the short list. There are a few teams that are probably going to start on this process: New York Jets and Houston Texans!?

[diehardlionfan]

20 hours ago, Louis Friend said:

I thought it was unnecessary. I truly wonder what went through Patricias mind other than trying to shave points. 

He explained later that they went for it knowing they had another opportunity if they scored again.

 

[diehardlionfan]

As far as I’m concerned Quinn has to go as well.

We have two second round running backs yet our run game is dependent upon a late, reasonable cost,  free agent signing.

Lots of capital invested in the oline but the team can’t run the ball and Stafford gets hit far to often. Big signing of Halapoulivaati.

Using patchwork free agent signings on the defensive line has proven a failure.

Hockenson looks to be progressing, but a TE at number 8 with glaring holes at positions of far more importance is a mistake. 

Which players would you keep and which would you be looking to improve on this roster? Look honestly and think which guys are getting it done?

 

[Nnivolcm]

12 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

What benefit would it have to ownership and/or the current players on the roster? Also, while it might increase their first round pick it would mitigate mid-season trades that could net extra draft capital. 

If you're ownership, firing Patricia earlier would feel more beneficial to me.

1) You are still assessing Bob Quinn. Has he been a part of the issue or has he provided the talent and the coaching staff hasn't developed them and/or the scheme has been a hindrance;

2) sending a message to fans and other members of the organization that losing is not accepted. I know you are of the feeling that message could/should have been delivered before this season. I'm of the belief that was pre-mature, even knowing where we're at right now. It tells the players that they are competing for roster spots under a new HC and/or GM. 

3) You can start your search process early. Even if you can't evaluate the prospects up close and in interviews, you can watch the games and create the short list. There are a few teams that are probably going to start on this process: New York Jets and Houston Texans!?

Ownership would benefit because there would be better draft capital for the next regime to speed up the rebuild.

I don't see keeping Patricia until the end of the season or firing Patricia now having an impact on the current players on the roster. This roster doesn't really have a star that I'm worried about keeping happy. It's a pretty uninspiring group they've assembled. Stafford and KG would probably be the hardest to replace and we've already wasted much of Stafford's window with Quintricia and they are dragging their feet locking down KG. 

1. I think Quinn hitched his wagon to Patricia and now he has to go as Patricia goes. It would be beyond stupid for the Lions to fire Patricia and let Quinn continue as GM. The Lions have a history of doing the beyond stupid thing so it'll probably be what happens. 

2. they sent a message to fans and other members of the organization already. They told us all they were ok with being terrible when they publicly endorsed Quintricia for 2020, but not for 2021.

3. They can start the search process early with Quintricia staying on. I hope they've already been doing what you're saying they can start doing when they're gone. 

[Sllim Pickens]

21 hours ago, LionArkie said:

This is where I think BQ is the issue.  IF BQ would have built this team from the front to back, I think MP might have a chance at winning. We saw what he could do with someone who could control the middle of the dline. That defense looked pretty good.  I also think BQ's obsession with taking backups and making them starters is  another issue. On the other hand, are all the NE cast offs BQ is bringing in due to MP not being able to relate to anyone else in the league?  I don't know which is the bigger issue BQ or MP and I want to know right now.  I don't want to find out next year. I believe MP's fate is sealed, so now I want to know about BQ.

I think Quinn is the bigger issue, but MP is still a big issue.  The talent level has dropped across the board since Quinn got here and the records have proven that.  We once again are rostering about 25 players who would make another teams roster and we have maybe 10 players that would start on other rosters. His grabbing back ups to be starters doesnt work unless you have Wilfork and Seymour on the D Line.  Oh and Bill Belichik.  Over drafting guys who fit the scheme because of their size and ignoring their lack of skill has led us to having one of the worst LB cores in the league with a 1st and 2nd round pick both fighting to be the worst MLB in the league.  Drafting yet another TE in the top 10 has led to having an ok TE group but an awful D Line.  The philosophy is jacked, the player evaluations are jacked.  He has brought us Kenny Golladay and Frank Ragnow.  Other than that his draft picks have been quite atrocious.  Quinn has worked hard at getting rid of talent and replacing it with "system guys" and unfortunately the only one who can make that system work is in NE. 

 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

2 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I think Quinn is the bigger issue, but MP is still a big issue.  The talent level has dropped across the board since Quinn got here and the records have proven that.  We once again are rostering about 25 players who would make another teams roster and we have maybe 10 players that would start on other rosters. His grabbing back ups to be starters doesnt work unless you have Wilfork and Seymour on the D Line.  Oh and Bill Belichik.  Over drafting guys who fit the scheme because of their size and ignoring their lack of skill has led us to having one of the worst LB cores in the league with a 1st and 2nd round pick both fighting to be the worst MLB in the league.  Drafting yet another TE in the top 10 has led to having an ok TE group but an awful D Line.  The philosophy is jacked, the player evaluations are jacked.  He has brought us Kenny Golladay and Frank Ragnow.  Other than that his draft picks have been quite atrocious.  Quinn has worked hard at getting rid of talent and replacing it with "system guys" and unfortunately the only one who can make that system work is in NE. 

 

I... completely agree.

[LionArkie]

1 hour ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I think Quinn is the bigger issue, but MP is still a big issue.  The talent level has dropped across the board since Quinn got here and the records have proven that.  We once again are rostering about 25 players who would make another teams roster and we have maybe 10 players that would start on other rosters. His grabbing back ups to be starters doesnt work unless you have Wilfork and Seymour on the D Line.  Oh and Bill Belichik.  Over drafting guys who fit the scheme because of their size and ignoring their lack of skill has led us to having one of the worst LB cores in the league with a 1st and 2nd round pick both fighting to be the worst MLB in the league.  Drafting yet another TE in the top 10 has led to having an ok TE group but an awful D Line.  The philosophy is jacked, the player evaluations are jacked.  He has brought us Kenny Golladay and Frank Ragnow.  Other than that his draft picks have been quite atrocious.  Quinn has worked hard at getting rid of talent and replacing it with "system guys" and unfortunately the only one who can make that system work is in NE. 

 

Don't disagree one bit.  I just want it proven to be the case.

I believe this also means the next fo will have a big mess to clean up and it extends the rebuild time.

Edited October 6, 2020 by LionArkie

[Sllim Pickens]

17 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Don't disagree one bit.  I just want it proven to be the case.

I believe this also means the next fo will have a big mess to clean up and it extends the rebuild time.

I dont think it will easily be proven.  The only way it is disproven is if a new HC comes in and turns around all of these duds.  I think its fair to say that Golden Tate, Darius Slay, Kyle Van Noy, Quandre Diggs are all having significantly better season than players in those same positions here.  And the compensation for Tate is retired, Slay we cut one of the picks we got and he ended up on Philly, the other is a backup DE, Pat O'Connor was drafted with the pick for Van Noy and is not in the league anymore, and the pick for Diggs turned into Cephus.  We have lost a lot more talent than that, but those are trades I remember.  And none of them benefited us or made us better (other than Snacks helped for 8 games one year but we still had a crappy record). 

[LionArkie]

4 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I dont think it will easily be proven.  The only way it is disproven is if a new HC comes in and turns around all of these duds.  I think its fair to say that Golden Tate, Darius Slay, Kyle Van Noy, Quandre Diggs are all having significantly better season than players in those same positions here.  And the compensation for Tate is retired, Slay we cut one of the picks we got and he ended up on Philly, the other is a backup DE, Pat O'Connor was drafted with the pick for Van Noy and is not in the league anymore, and the pick for Diggs turned into Cephus.  We have lost a lot more talent than that, but those are trades I remember.  And none of them benefited us or made us better (other than Snacks helped for 8 games one year but we still had a crappy record). 

For me, proven looks like this.
BQ - "I gave MP a good roster, he didn't make it happen"

Fords - "Fire MP and put in a different coach then and prove to me it was MP"

BQ fires MP, puts interim in place to prove it was MP and not the roster. He can't say it was the system because he already used that excuse with caldwell and it was BQ and MP's system.

Interim coach either wins or loses.  If he wins, then maybe BQ is good to go (I still want him gone). If the coach loses, BQ failed to prove he gave an effective roster and we start over in 2021.