The Tom Brady Thread

[Saint_James]

2 minutes ago, Archimedes said:

Would you like to know what else is common sense? That a 43 year old quarterback has declining arm strength. 
 

So this bit of anecdotal and completely subjective evidence is what we’re supposed to go on as far as Brady’s declining arm strength? You’ll be going with that?

You’re welcome to disagree, but you’re still wrong.

How is that less anecdotal than "one former QB said something so I'll repeat it" ???

You said you wanted a rational discussion, doesn't seem like it.   There are definitely ways to quantify this, and none of the facts are in your favor.  Velocity can be measured, passes can be timed.  Can you please show me any quantifiable evidence that says Tom Brady doesn't have the arm strength to execute the Tampa Bay offense?   Last year he was clocked throwing a football at 61MPH.   Now I suppose you could say he's lost some strength in a year, but the idea that he's suddenly a "noodle arm"?  Nahh, not buying that.

I'm not claiming his 43 year old arm hasn't lost ANY strength at all.  I'm saying people are simply taking the easy way out and using that as an excuse for his inconsistent and poor play it seems.

Also declaring the other person "wrong" outright isn't going to produce a rational or constructive conversation on the Internet.  We're both using opinion as well as anecdotal evidence here as much as anything.  What makes you so certain you have all the facts?  You haven't bothered to produce much in the way of that frankly. 

 

[Jlowe22]

46 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

 

That's.....specious logic at best.  "Accuracy" can mean many things.  Tom was specifically other-throwing guys against the Rams on very deep passes.   That speaks to ample arm strength, just common sense. 

There are much better ways to quantify arm strength than a 45 yard go-route as well.  Specifically the "deep-out" route which is more generally used to gauge a QB's arm as it requires high velocity out to the sidelines out to 20'ish yards.   Did you watch him in that Giants game?  I thought he took Scottie Miller's hands off with that one pass. 

Arians said it best:  He hits those deep passes in practice, the arm is fine.  The only difference is Brady KNOWS he won't be hit in practice.   I agree with you about his decision making, I do not agree that arm strength is the issue here. 

 

To be clear, I'm not even saying that Brady's arm strength is declining.  The truth is I don't know, I haven't studied his throws, and there wasn't a lot of this type of offense to compare him with in New England.

What I am saying, is that it could be declining, and it wouldn't necessarily mean he can't make the throws, it can manifest as poor accuracy on those throws.  Not all the time, but consistency would suffer.  

As far as it being an excuse, well I don't really care about that.  You can make whatever excuses you want for Brady's poor play, I don't care.  Arm strength is somewhat low on the totem pole for things that matter to begin with.

[Saint_James]

12 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

To be clear, I'm not even saying that Brady's arm strength is declining.  The truth is I don't know, I haven't studied his throws, and there wasn't a lot of this type of offense to compare him with in New England.

What I am saying, is that it could be declining, and it wouldn't necessarily mean he can't make the throws, it can manifest as poor accuracy on those throws.  Not all the time, but consistency would suffer.  

As far as it being an excuse, well I don't really care about that.  You can make whatever excuses you want for Brady's poor play, I don't care.  Arm strength is somewhat low on the totem pole for things that matter to begin with.

 

I think you're right.  The important thing to me isn't why he's failing, I'm just satisfied that he IS.   That's enough for me.

 

[lancerman]

On 11/25/2020 at 9:56 AM, Saint_James said:

When Drew Brees misses a deep ball, it's always horribly underthrown.  We've known for years Drew's arm is declining.

I'm seeing Tom Brady overthrow guys by 5 or 10 yards on deep shots.   And that's arm strength declining??   I feel I'm being completely rational.   It's just what you guys are saying doesn't make sense. 

Brady isn't doing anything he hasn't done physically over the last 3 years. It's scheme. The Bucs have an exceptional predictable and lazy scheme and it's deep and downfield all the time.

[rfournier103]

I guess Tom was too smart to know that the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Almost every man has a horrible boss at some point in his life, but he couldn’t put up with Coach Bill for two more years? 
 

Brady is finally getting paid and has all the offensive weapons he wants. He was an unrestricted free agent and could go to any team that would have him, but this is where he ended up. 
 

On the other hand, I’m glad he finally got paid and has the respect he so richly deserves. Long overdue. 

[Hunter2_1]

How can Brady's arm strength be an issue when the evidence is literally right there that it is still a strong enough arm (wasn't a rocket anyway). Go to the second DPI call - a 30 yard frozen rope. If you have a weak arm you can't throw that. F c'mon man!

The issues lie elsewhere

[ILoveTheVikings]

Tom: 7-4, 25 touchdowns to 9 interceptions

He made the wrong decision, the grass isn't always greener!

Bill: 4-6

He was more important then Tom!

 

Can we at least ask for some consistency when bashing Tom and praising Bill?

All evidence points towards Bill not being able to win without Tom.

Edited November 28, 2020 by ILoveTheVikings

[Hunter2_1]

4 minutes ago, ILoveTheVikings said:

Tom: 7-4, 25 touchdowns to 9 interceptions

He made the wrong decision, the grass isn't always greener!

Bill: 4-6

He was more important then Tom!

 

Can we at least ask for some consistency when bashing Tom and praising Bill?

All evidence points towards Bill not being able to win without Tom.

As with most things there is nuance, and it is nuance that prick sports fans ignore.

 

For example, Brady goes from GOAT to washed up on a weekly basis. The reality is....he's come into his first ever new system, with a coaching staff that prefers a style that doesn't necessarily suit him, with no pre season, but he does have good weapons, he does still have his processing unit of a brain - and he's decent! Not top 5, not bottom 5, he's been pretty good overall considering.

 

With Bill, again, where's the nuance? This is a season where he's had the most opt-outs out of everyone including 3 or 4 key players, where there's been hardly any practice (he's on record saying how important practice is), with a new QB who is the antithesis of his previous one, but there has been some truly head scratching moments. The drafting is catching up with him, he's deliberately holding some players out....it's been strange.

 

They are both somewhere in the middle.  But no, we can't have that on sports forums...

[RUGmen]

47 minutes ago, ILoveTheVikings said:

Tom: 7-4, 25 touchdowns to 9 interceptions

He made the wrong decision, the grass isn't always greener!

Bill: 4-6

He was more important then Tom!

 

Can we at least ask for some consistency when bashing Tom and praising Bill?

All evidence points towards Bill not being able to win without Tom.

I wouldn’t lean one way to either for important to the success. I think both are the respective GOATs. 
 

If you told me me to choose between who would have the better chance of winning SBs..BB with an average QB or Brady with an average HC, I would lean more towards Brady. Simply due to this season as proof. For all the heat Brady is getting right now, the Bucs are still 7-4 and he’s on pace for 36TDs and 13INTs. New system/team and COVID, I would say not too shabby. The same case can be made for the Pats as well. New QB, opt out, etc, HOWEVER, to me, this all dates back to those who claimed BB was the sole reason for Brady’s success. For years, we heard you can plug a garbage can under center in NE and they wouldn’t skip a beat, has simply been debunked.

Edited November 28, 2020 by RUGmen

[Xenos]

On 11/25/2020 at 8:12 AM, Saint_James said:

 

Where else would the blame lie though?  It's not the plays, it's not the offense, it's certainly not the roster of talent they've given the guy.   At the end of the day the quarterback is ultimately who has to execute the offense. 

 

Technically it does fall on the coach and the offense to adapt to the players. After all, that’s what Arians said he would do for Brady as a Buc. You don’t need to go vertical all the time. That’s one of the things I hated about Arians’ offense. He’s like Norv Turner in that regards. Sean Payton’s ability to adapt to Brees’ declining arm strength is an excellent example of what to do.

[ILoveTheVikings]

2 hours ago, RUGmen said:

I wouldn’t lean one way to either for important to the success. I think both are the respective GOATs. 
 

If you told me me to choose between who would have the better chance of winning SBs..BB with an average QB or Brady with an average HC, I would lean more towards Brady. Simply due to this season as proof. For all the heat Brady is getting right now, the Bucs are still 7-4 and he’s on pace for 36TDs and 13INTs. New system/team and COVID, I would say not too shabby. The same case can be made for the Pats as well. New QB, opt out, etc, HOWEVER, to me, this all dates back to those who claimed BB was the sole reason for Brady’s success. For years, we heard you can plug a garbage can under center in NE and they wouldn’t skip a beat, has simply been debunked.

This is precisely what is driving my black and white posting in this thread. Both BB and Brady needed each other to essentially be the GOATs as a coach and QB but Tom was the more important part of that duo and I don't even see a logical argument otherwise. 

Tom is freaking 43 and we are talking about as if he was in/near his prime. For QB years he is basically a geriatric patient in a hospital bed and yet is still dominating.

[Saint_James]

43 minutes ago, ILoveTheVikings said:

This is precisely what is driving my black and white posting in this thread. Both BB and Brady needed each other to essentially be the GOATs as a coach and QB but Tom was the more important part of that duo and I don't even see a logical argument otherwise. 

Tom is freaking 43 and we are talking about as if he was in/near his prime. For QB years he is basically a geriatric patient in a hospital bed and yet is still dominating.

 

The year Brady blew his knee out in the opener Bellicheck went 11-5 with Matt friggin Cassel at QB.  They set the NFL record for fewest penalties and if it was any other year in the AFC but that one, they would have went to the playoffs.   Matt Cassel thriving in that system is proof the system IS the Patriots, not Tom Brady. 

 

There's lot's of logical arguments to state Tom was not the more important part to the Pat's success.  You surely can't use this season to draw any conclusions, seeing as how nearly every good player for the Patriots decided to opt-out this season.   Totally out of the coaches control but it sure affects what's on the field.

[Saint_James]

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

Technically it does fall on the coach and the offense to adapt to the players. After all, that’s what Arians said he would do for Brady as a Buc. You don’t need to go vertical all the time. That’s one of the things I hated about Arians’ offense. He’s like Norv Turner in that regards. Sean Payton’s ability to adapt to Brees’ declining arm strength is an excellent example of what to do.

If we were talking about any other QB, I would give you that point.

But some of us have been sick of having this so-called "GOAT" obnoxiously elevated to the point of godhood for the past 20 years.  I'm told he's the most transcendent QB to ever pick up a football.  Capable of singlehandedly elevating bad coaches and bad receivers and bad franchises and through just the power of his personality and magnetic aura to cause Lombardi's to fall from the sky like rain.

But when he struggles he suddenly DOES need good players.  He suddenly does need good coaching.  He suddenly DOES need a franchise with a good culture.  See the problem some of us are having with this?

So no, I will not offer any excuses for Tom Brady.   He and all his sycophants online and in national media made this bed, now they can lie in it and be silent as we watch in fascination as his legacy implodes before our very eyes with each refused handshake, each bonehead interception, and every time he forgets what down it is or even basic rules like not throwing a pass twice on the same play. 

[ILoveTheVikings]

15 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

 

The year Brady blew his knee out in the opener Bellicheck went 11-5 with Matt friggin Cassel at QB.  They set the NFL record for fewest penalties and if it was any other year in the AFC but that one, they would have went to the playoffs.   Matt Cassel thriving in that system is proof the system IS the Patriots, not Tom Brady. 

 

There's lot's of logical arguments to state Tom was not the more important part to the Pat's success.  You surely can't use this season to draw any conclusions, seeing as how nearly every good player for the Patriots decided to opt-out this season.   Totally out of the coaches control but it sure affects what's on the field.

That Patriots team was stacked beyond belief. They were 16-0 the previous year and your argument is that Cassell prevented the entire team falling apart? Cassell was a game manager whose entire job was to let a 16-0 team do it's job while he stood idly by and try not to mess up.

 

[Saint_James]

4 hours ago, ILoveTheVikings said:

All evidence points towards Bill not being able to win without Tom.

All the evidence???  His quarterback got infected with a virus that can kill you, missed games, then came back obviously not 100%.   He has gillions of dollars in salary cap sitting at home because they decided to opt-out for the whole season.   And for the first time in history under Bellicheck, there are other teams in the AFC East playing competitive football for a change.

And you're asking for consistency....okay but you sound pretty biased against Bill.   Tom went to a LOADED team, where stars didn't opt out, who had a dominating defense until they ran into the Saints recently.   I need to see your evidence because I believe if you put Bill Bellicheck in the charge of Tampa Bay they could very well be undefeated right now.  

Edited November 28, 2020 by Saint_James