The Tom Brady Thread

[Saint_James]

57 minutes ago, Starless said:

Because you used the term "unbiased analysis" to describe what is objectively false. 

You wouldn't have to attack my motives if you felt I had no argument.   I'm not calling you guys Brady homers and this and that.   Let's stick to football ok?

[Apparition]

7 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

You wouldn't have to attack my motives if you felt I had no argument.  

Who's attacking your motives? I'm not attributing malice to you, I'm saying you're objectively wrong and your framing is dumb. 

[Saint_James]

1 minute ago, Starless said:

Who's attacking your motives? I'm not attributing malice to you, I'm saying you're objectively wrong and your framing is dumb. 

Ah well, you'll get over it 🙂

 

[lancerman]

16 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

 

Manning had all that AND the physical gifts.   So why doesn't he get any respect?  Is it just because 6>2 and nothing more?

Also don't you feel like the cheating scandals, which WERE proven and did happen, call into question this storybook legacy?  Not saying I'm a super moral guy, but the way everyone just wants to dismiss them in order to hype the man up - it's just sad to me. 

“Proven” 

“NFL admits in court they don’t have direct evidence” 

The fact that your starting point is to remove all his accolades which is literally the goal every person who plays his position tries to achieve is just hilarious and shows you aren’t arguing from a genuinely unbiased place. Let alone the threat to start a flame war so admins could step in. 

[Saint_James]

1 minute ago, lancerman said:

“Proven” 

“NFL admits in court they don’t have direct evidence” 

The fact that your starting point is to remove all his accolades which is literally the goal every person who plays his position tries to achieve is just hilarious and shows you aren’t arguing from a genuinely unbiased place. Let alone the threat to start a flame war so admins could step in. 

 

Uhhh that wasn't a threat, I sincerely don't want that.  I want to discuss this.

Like it's socially unacceptable to not be a Brady fanboi?  Or think he's not the best quarterback ever?  

I have the right to an opinion and to stand by it.  There's nothing wrong with not believing Brady is the best human to ever pick up a football.  Get over it.

[RUGmen]

23 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

 

Well yes, when you call someone the "GOAT" you are declaring them to be judged by the highest most extreme standard.  It's been that way for everyone in every sport. Especially when you hype him up to the sky and back.   You guys can't pick and choose here.  You can't say he's the best ever hands down bar none everyone else is garbage, then when he struggles bring up his age or this or that.  Come on now. 

Don’t think I have seen one person here claim he’s having a GOAT level season..

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, Saint_James said:

 

Uhhh that wasn't a threat, I sincerely don't want that.  I want to discuss this.

Like it's socially unacceptable to not be a Brady fanboi?  Or think he's not the best quarterback ever?  

I have the right to an opinion and to stand by it.  There's nothing wrong with not believing Brady is the best human to ever pick up a football.  Get over it.

I just think you make a lot of bad arguments. Taking away all his accolades is a terrible one. It’s something that are literally the high end benchmark of every QB ever and we have to wipe them aside because it makes an argument more convenient. Would you take away Manning’s stats because historically he had more high end WR talent across his career than any other QB in the running? Or Brees because he played in a dome and we have an abundance of data the QB passing stats go up in a dome? But we are only taking away Brady’s accolades. 
 

Then you dismissed his MVP’s. He has 3. There are 5 guys in history with 3 MVP’s or more. Jim Brown. Most people consider him the greatest pure player ever and most dominant running back in history. Johnny Unitas. He was the pro type for the modern QB back in the 60’s and was the template all current QB’s. Brett Farve who was the NFL Iron Man and led the league in every stat when he retired. Peyton Manning who finished with all the passing records when he retired. And Tom Brady. Those are all high end names and MVP is not a post season award. There is absolutely no reason to disregard these because Brees and Wilson who quite frankly were never the best in the league didn’t get them. Brees was close twice and you can debate 09 but Rodgers was clearly getting 2011. Wilson never, this is his closest year. 
 

Like I can argue to take away anybody’s accolades and make them look worse by comparison. I can also focus on one or two traits and value them higher than everything else to disqualify guys I don’t want. If I say Pre and Post Snap read and going through progressions are all that matter I can wipe out Rodgers from the discussion for instance. 
 

Like either take them as they are or don’t. If you want to DQ accolades then we can do that with everyone.

[Saint_James]

2 minutes ago, lancerman said:

I just think you make a lot of bad arguments. Taking away all his accolades is a terrible one. It’s something that are literally the high end benchmark of every QB ever and we have to wipe them aside because it makes an argument more convenient. Would you take away Manning’s stats because historically he had more high end WR talent across his career than any other QB in the running? Or Brees because he played in a dome and we have an abundance of data the QB passing stats go up in a dome? But we are only taking away Brady’s accolades. 
 

Then you dismissed his MVP’s. He has 3. There are 5 guys in history with 3 MVP’s or more. Jim Brown. Most people consider him the greatest pure player ever and most dominant running back in history. Johnny Unitas. He was the pro type for the modern QB back in the 60’s and was the template all current QB’s. Brett Farve who was the NFL Iron Man and led the league in every stat when he retired. Peyton Manning who finished with all the passing records when he retired. And Tom Brady. Those are all high end names and MVP is not a post season award. There is absolutely no reason to disregard these because Brees and Wilson who quite frankly were never the best in the league didn’t get them. Brees was close twice and you can debate 09 but Rodgers was clearly getting 2011. Wilson never, this is his closest year. 
 

Like I can argue to take away anybody’s accolades and make them look worse by comparison. I can also focus on one or two traits and value them higher than everything else to disqualify guys I don’t want. If I say Pre and Post Snap read and going through progressions are all that matter I can wipe out Rodgers from the discussion for instance. 
 

Like either take them as they are or don’t. If you want to DQ accolades then we can do that with everyone.

Think you guys are taking that the wrong way.  I meant for the purposes of debate, remove the accolades in order to honestly judge his skill at quarterback.    I'm not saying I'm creating some alternative universe where they just don't count...

And yes, I generally dismiss the MVP award because it's a popularity contest.  It hardly ever truly goes to the most "valuable" player.  It's become a most-popular quarterback's only reward, not truly the most valuable player.  And the fact that Wilson has never got a single vote, casts serious doubt on it's credibility as a measure of talent or team-worth in my opinion. 

I'm not alone in thinking that either so please don't even go there with the nitpicks.   The Offensive Player of the Year award is being nicknamed the "MVP for non-quarterbacks" because it's getting painfully obvious how biased the MVP is. 

As far as my 'bad arguments' well whatever, at least I'm trying to make them and not just going with the group-think mindset about Brady.   Not everyone has to think what you do ya know.

[Asciimo]

nvm

Edited December 3, 2020 by Asciimo

[Asciimo]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:10 PM, Saint_James said:

Think you guys are taking that the wrong way.  I meant for the purposes of debate, remove the accolades in order to honestly judge his skill at quarterback.    I'm not saying I'm creating some alternative universe where they just don't count...

And yes, I generally dismiss the MVP award because it's a popularity contest.  It hardly ever truly goes to the most "valuable" player.  It's become a most-popular quarterback's only reward, not truly the most valuable player.  And the fact that Wilson has never got a single vote, casts serious doubt on it's credibility as a measure of talent or team-worth in my opinion. 

I'm not alone in thinking that either so please don't even go there with the nitpicks.   The Offensive Player of the Year award is being nicknamed the "MVP for non-quarterbacks" because it's getting painfully obvious how biased the MVP is. 

As far as my 'bad arguments' well whatever, at least I'm trying to make them and not just going with the group-think mindset about Brady.   Not everyone has to think what you do ya know.

you dismiss the MVP award because your boy breesus has 0 lmao.

[lancerman]

On 12/1/2020 at 6:10 PM, Saint_James said:

Think you guys are taking that the wrong way.  I meant for the purposes of debate, remove the accolades in order to honestly judge his skill at quarterback.    I'm not saying I'm creating some alternative universe where they just don't count...

And yes, I generally dismiss the MVP award because it's a popularity contest.  It hardly ever truly goes to the most "valuable" player.  It's become a most-popular quarterback's only reward, not truly the most valuable player.  And the fact that Wilson has never got a single vote, casts serious doubt on it's credibility as a measure of talent or team-worth in my opinion. 

I'm not alone in thinking that either so please don't even go there with the nitpicks.   The Offensive Player of the Year award is being nicknamed the "MVP for non-quarterbacks" because it's getting painfully obvious how biased the MVP is. 

As far as my 'bad arguments' well whatever, at least I'm trying to make them and not just going with the group-think mindset about Brady.   Not everyone has to think what you do ya know.

MVP isn't a popularity contest. It almost always goes to the best statistical QB on the season. In  2011, Brees had a great season. It also happened to be a year where Aaron Rodgers broke the single season passer rating record surpassing Manning's 2004 and Brady's 2007, 1994 Steve Young, and and 1989 Joe Montana as the other seasons in the top 5 at that point in time. Every single one of those QB's went on to win MVP that year. The next best after those guys was Otto Graham. He also led his team to a 15-1 regular season record which is something only 6 teams accomplished (and one other team surpassed). There was a 0 percent chance Rodgers wasn't getting that. 

The other one you could dispute more legitimately was 09. 

Peyton Manning: 393/571, 68.8%, 4500 yards, 33TD's, 16INT, 99.9 passer rating

Drew Brees: 363/514, 70.6%, 4388 yards, 34TD's, 11INT, 109.6 passer rating. 

Statitistcally Brees was a tad bit better, but Manning nearly had an undefeated season, his team asked him to pass alot more than Brees did. 57 more attempts is like 2 extra games of passes hence the efficiency difference, and quite frankly Manning was carrying his team while Brees had a relatively stacked one. Oh and Manning's team was resting starters the final two games, he easily could passed Brees in TD's if they cared to. So it was a toss up, but there were plenty of arguments for Manning. 

Aside from that, 99 and 01 Warner had his peak GSOT years and won MVP, 02 Gannon had a peak year and got it (can't call him popular), Manning was shattering records in 03 and 04 to get his one of which being the best statistical QB season since Dan Marino in 1984. He easily deserved those. 07 Brady broke the TD record and had one of if not the best QB season of all time. 08 Manning was the best. 09 we went over. 2010 Brady was statistically the best QB and it wasn't even close. We went over 2011. 2013 Manning had one of the best QB seasons ever again. 2014 Rodgers was easily the best statistical QB that year, Watt was the only other contender for the award and his team didn't make the playoffs so I don't know how you argue value. 2015 Cam had one of the best hybrid QB seasons ever and was easily the most productive players in the league. 2016 Ryan had a historically signficant passing season, his only competition was Brady who missed 4 games. 2017 the race was between Brady and Wentz all year and when Wentz went down, Brady led him in everything but TD passes so he ultimately got it. 2018 Mahomes became the third QB ever to get 50 TD's and had arguably the best debut QB season of all time and put up unheard of numbers. He was also a first year QB who nobody really thought about before that year. 2019 Lamar Jackson led the league in TD's and also broke the QB rushing record.

Like some are very close between people, but I don't know how you dismiss it as a popularity contest when guys who were breaking it were breaking records and having historically significant seasons. 

Also you severly don't understand MVP voting if you think Wilson not getting a vote is an indictment. Wilson never got a vote because he was never once one of the top guys in MVP considerations. They vote for who they think should be MVP. They don't go "oh Wilson is good so he deserves votes". Everyone on the planet knew Lamar Jackson would be MVP last year. Anybody thinking about voting Wilson was wasting their time. In his entire career Wilson led the league in two stats ever. He led the league in passer rating in 2015. That was Cam's year and everyone knew it. In 2017 he led the league in TD's. That year there were at least 3 QB's ahead of Wilson in MVP consideration. 

And I don't know where you think it's just legitimate to argue wiping out MVP's. You have some QB's you are talking about that played all their careers or most of it in a dome and we know for a fact those statistically inflate numbers. So can I just dismiss any years they had slightly better stats than Brady? 

[Saint_James]

On 12/3/2020 at 12:10 AM, lancerman said:

MVP isn't a popularity contest. It almost always goes to the best statistical QB on the season.

Okay but then you go on to say...

Quote

You have some QB's you are talking about that played all their careers or most of it in a dome and we know for a fact those statistically inflate numbers.

So MVP is about being the best statistical QB...unless you play in a dome.  Then your stats are too good so they don't count as much?   Real consistent argument...

Quote

Like some are very close between people, but I don't know how you dismiss it as a popularity contest when guys who were breaking it were breaking records and having historically significant seasons. 

Because Drew Brees has done all that, consistently, and he never got an MVP.  Even when he lead his team to the Super Bowl and won.   He's lead the league in passing 7 times, take your pick.  He's had historically great seasons.  He's broke EVERY record.  He's the only quarterback ever who's had multiple 5k yard seasons, and he's had FOUR.  Let that sink in.  Where's the MVP's?   You said the MVP is about the best QB stats, fine, so you can't walk that back now.

A bunch of sports writers get together and decide the MVP.  So please, please don't tell me it's not a popularity contest and these guys are unbiased.   They've always loved, and I mean LOVED, the Tom Brady story.   Sixth round QB that nobody wanted, came in for an injured Drew Bledsoe, lit the world on fire bla bla bla.   National sports media is biased, we know they are.  Why even try and make such an absurd argument that such a flawed process truly results in the "most valuable" player being picked every year?  Come on, not even you can actually believe that. 

National sports media has always had it out for Drew Brees.  He's not flashy enough, he's not sexy enough, he's too humble, he's not tall enough, he doesn't throw bombs enough - New Orleans isn't a historic successful football city like their favorite teams are in - whatever.  He's never got the respect he's deserved.   The ultimate proof, beyond the MVP discussion, is his utterly disrespectful snub of the NFL All Time 100 team.  Putting trash like Brett Favre on that team while omitting Brees is simply proof positive that personal feelings and bias cloud all these awards and titles.   They ARE popularity contests. 

Quote

Statitistcally Brees was a tad bit better, but Manning nearly had an undefeated season, his team asked him to pass alot more than Brees did.

 LOL!!!  Right, let's just totally throw out the fact that head-to-head in the Super Bowl, Drew Brees DESTROYED Payton Manning while having the 25'th ranked defense in the NFL that season.   Are you serious with this?   No, the Saints asked FAR more from Drew Brees that year.   In fact carrying a horrible defense and still winning games and setting records is the STORY of the mans career.   And that should earn some measure of respect and acknowledgement. 

You love Brady, fine.   Just don't tell me that they ever asked more from him than managing the system while relying on historically good defenses to pull him from the fire over and over. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Saint_James

[lancerman]

4 hours ago, Saint_James said:

Okay but then you go on to say...

So MVP is about being the best statistical QB...unless you play in a dome.  Then your stats are too good so they don't count as much?   Real consistent argument...

Because Drew Brees has done all that, consistently, and he never got an MVP.  Even when he lead his team to the Super Bowl and won.   He's lead the league in passing 7 times, take your pick.  He's had historically great seasons.  He's broke EVERY record.  He's the only quarterback ever who's had multiple 5k yard seasons, and he's had FOUR.  Let that sink in.  Where's the MVP's?   You said the MVP is about the best QB stats, fine, so you can't walk that back now.

A bunch of sports writers get together and decide the MVP.  So please, please don't tell me it's not a popularity contest and these guys are unbiased.   They've always loved, and I mean LOVED, the Tom Brady story.   Sixth round QB that nobody wanted, came in for an injured Drew Bledsoe, lit the world on fire bla bla bla.   National sports media is biased, we know they are.  Why even try and make such an absurd argument that such a flawed process truly results in the "most valuable" player being picked every year?  Come on, not even you can actually believe that. 

National sports media has always had it out for Drew Brees.  He's not flashy enough, he's not sexy enough, he's too humble, he's not tall enough, he doesn't throw bombs enough - New Orleans isn't a historic successful football city like their favorite teams are in - whatever.  He's never got the respect he's deserved.   The ultimate proof, beyond the MVP discussion, is his utterly disrespectful snub of the NFL All Time 100 team.  Putting trash like Brett Favre on that team while omitting Brees is simply proof positive that personal feelings and bias cloud all these awards and titles.   They ARE popularity contests. 

 LOL!!!  Right, let's just totally throw out the fact that head-to-head in the Super Bowl, Drew Brees DESTROYED Payton Manning while having the 25'th ranked defense in the NFL that season.   Are you serious with this?   No, the Saints asked FAR more from Drew Brees that year.   In fact carrying a horrible defense and still winning games and setting records is the STORY of the mans career.   And that should earn some measure of respect and acknowledgement. 

You love Brady, fine.   Just don't tell me that they ever asked more from him than managing the system while relying on historically good defenses to pull him from the fire over and over. 

You do realize MVP is a regular season award and it was voted on before Brees and Manning met in the Super Bowl right? No? Okay 

[Saint_James]

11 minutes ago, lancerman said:

You do realize MVP is a regular season award and it was voted on before Brees and Manning met in the Super Bowl right? No? Okay 

Yes I do, besides the point I'm making.  It was clear Brees was the better QB that season.  Drew Brees won the SB, so in hindsight, he should have won the MVP.  And Is that really all you have to say?

Fine throw out 2009, sure.   What about all the other historically great seasons? 

So look, we've established the MVP Award is media kerfuffle and is not some legitimate measure of a players greatness.  I mean Jesus Christ man, not even Jerry Rice won the thing.   It's bunk!

Edited December 4, 2020 by Saint_James

[lancerman]

30 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

Yes I do, besides the point I'm making.  It was clear Brees was the better QB that season.  Drew Brees won the SB, so in hindsight, he should have won the MVP.  And Is that really all you have to say?

Fine throw out 2009, sure.   What about all the other historically great seasons? 

So look, we've established the MVP Award is media kerfuffle and is not some legitimate measure of a players greatness.  I mean Jesus Christ man, not even Jerry Rice won the thing.   It's bunk!

Winning the SB has no impact on MVP and considering you want to ignore those accolades for Brady I don’t know why you want to bring them up. 
 

I already gave you 4 MVP’s where the winners broke records (Manning 04, Brady 07, Manning 13 all broke the TD record and Rodgers in 11 broke the passer rating record). Then Mahomes had a historically great season in 2018 when nobody knew who he was so the voters gave it to him. 
 

Like where are you getting it being a popularity thing? 
 

Rice didn’t get it because in his best year he split votes with Montana who was leading the league in TD’s, completion percentage, and passer rating 

You just don’t like it because Brees never got it 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by lancerman