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Fire Pace and Nagy


beardown3231

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55 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

We had a GM who did exactly this and we still have clowns running around talking about how bad he was at drafting.

He was a mixed bag at drafting.  Better than most overall I would say, but he had some large misses made larger with trades.   

55 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

You mean like Fields, Jenkins, Borom, Mack, Quinn, Jaylon, Jackson, and Gipson. Well damn it sounds like Pace left Poles with a damn good foundation to work with. Combine this with the 11th most cap space and there's no reason Poles should to make the playoffs next year, right.

But yet you said Poles shouldn't be blamed for Fields if he busts.

I have said repeatedly that Pace didn't leave cupboard dry like Pace inherited.  His best drafting was in last two years IMO.  

Do you blame Pace for Cutler?  or the new MN GM for Cousins?  Everyone inherits a team of someone else's guys.  He will take some blame if Fields busts, but my point is because Fields wasn't his pick he won't take all of it if that happens and he probably gets a chance to pick another QB.   I think Fields is talented and that shouldn't happen sans injuries.   But I do think the way Fields is playing at moment his injury risk is rather large.     

55 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

See...this is the the **** I'm talking about.  A GM let his HC/OC pick his QBs in Foles and Dalton after realizing Mitch wasn't the guy and your blaming the GM for it.  Okay, fine, but keep that same energy though. When Poles chooses his HC and the HC chooses his QB then I expect to hear the same amount criticism. Backup QB or not. No BS excuses or context either--which I see some people are already starting to form in other ways like "scouting network" and "draft capital" lol.

Ryan had final say and Nagy was his guy.   Next QB that gets brought in to be starter (if there is another one) will be on Poles even if coach pounded table for him.  

55 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

You guys criticized Pace for not "drafting OL", so if Poles doesn't draft atleast 2 of them this year (early rounds too, since that's the criteria, right?) then I expect to hear the same amount of backlash. It doesn't matter if he already has Borom and Jenkins to develop and has to address other areas neither---remember you guys bitched about him not drafting OL early in 2019 even though Leno and Massie were coming off their best seasons-- so keep the same energy.  Speaking of early rounds and the draft. Poles' 2nd round pick had better be an AP by year 2 and if any of his draft choices turn out to be busts then I expect to hear the same bitching.  You guys criticized ANY player whenever they made the slightest mistake just to fit an agenda against Pace (ie idiots calling Arob overrated for a dropping a pass lol) so I expect the same for Poles. No trading up in the draft or trading away picks in FA either. You guys loved the Mack trade but then turned around and criticized Pace for not having draft capital and cap space the following year. So I guess Poles had better start digging thru the bargain bin....oh wait....nope he better not do that either, right?

Pace let OL deteriorate to one of worst in league and Nagy led teams sucked at coaching them.   He got exceedingly luck that Leno and Massie stayed healthy for so long or it would have been way worse. 

You don't have to draft 2 a year.

ARob didn't give max effort this year and he brought a lot of fan angst on himself because of it, deservedly so.  He was a great player overall for Bears and was a great FA signing.     

The Mack trade was brilliant if MT and Nagy were going to improve in 2019.  He would have been missing piece to a contending team in 2019.   But they didn't and because of it, you couldn't reset at QB via draft until last year.    So it was a bad assessment of Nagy and/or MT and the criticism is warranted.   We aren't at practices and meetings everyday.  We only see games.   And even if we misevaluated, the responsibility is still Pace's and the criticism is warranted.

55 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

We had a GM who was one of the best at drafting and finding talent in free agency (which is hard to find...especially for a brass like McCaskey) and that's wasn't good enough. Pace just sucked at choosing a HC.  Now we have a GM who is highly unlikely to be better at drafting AND he has to pick a HC during a year when there's a **** lists of jokes at HC. But hey...the grass is always greener on the other side.

I swear, it seems like your guys' criteria only fits when you want it too. You guys just follow whatever the media tells you on twitter and FB like good little sheep.

 

 

 

 

He was well below average at FAs as a GM:

2015 was awful: LB Sam Acho, CB Tracy Porter, LB Pernell McPhee, S Antrel Rolle, WR Eddie Royal, DE Ray McDonald

2016 was his best class as Akiem Hicks was a homerun, but he paid big for two ILBs in Danny Trevathan and Jerrell Freeman and Freeman didn't pan out.   ILBs are a dime a dozen relatively speaking.   RT Bobby Massie was a very good value, but an average player.

The 2017 FA class was historically bad for any team.  QB Mike Glennon, S Quintin Demps, TE Dion Sims, and WR Markus Wheaton.  Prince was good.  But there were huge misses as Glennon, Demps and Sims got paid.   

2018 ARob was a really good signing.  Taylor Gabriel was average.  Parkey was awful.  Burton was a large disappointment IMO.  

2019 Cordarrelle Patterson was a great returner - but Atlanta is showing what he could have been.   CB Buster Skrine was okay at best.   S Ha Ha Clinton-Dix was disappointing.  LB Kevin Pierre-Louis probably should have stayed on.
Mike Davis like Patterson should have been better.   But none of these guys are needle movers.

2020 Quinn turned out good a year later, but Jimmy Graham was a waste.  Mingo was meh.  Ifedi didn't have a good year this year though I liked him.   

As a trader he got some good players and some bad players, but he always paid retail.  

Everyone has hits and misses, just like everyone has hits in misses in drafts, FA, etc -  how does your team look after 4 or 5 years?

Answer for Pace is not good enough.


 

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12 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

He was well below average at FAs as a GM:
 


 

Compare it to the rest of the league.

Cairo Santos was a steal. Same with Peters. Skrine and HHCD were both solid pick-ups.  Especially at a cheap rate. Same with Gipson and Ifedi. Graham wasn't a waste, he was a good signing in 2020 both as a player and mentor to Kmet. Grant was another cheap player who was very good last year on ST like Patterson was. Damien Williams was very good for being the 3rd RB. Ogletree stepped up big time.

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13 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

See...this is the the **** I'm talking about.  A GM let his HC/OC pick his QBs in Foles and Dalton after realizing Mitch wasn't the guy and your blaming the GM for it.  Okay, fine, but keep that same energy though. When Poles chooses his HC and the HC chooses his QB then I expect to hear the same amount criticism. Backup QB or not. No BS excuses or context either--which I see some people are already starting to form in other ways like "scouting network" and "draft capital" lol.

You guys criticized Pace for not "drafting OL", so if Poles doesn't draft atleast 2 of them this year (early rounds too, since that's the criteria, right?) then I expect to hear the same amount of backlash. It doesn't matter if he already has Borom and Jenkins to develop and has to address other areas neither---remember you guys bitched about him not drafting OL early in 2019 even though Leno and Massie were coming off their best seasons-- so keep the same energy.  Speaking of early rounds and the draft. Poles' 2nd round pick had better be an AP by year 2 and if any of his draft choices turn out to be busts then I expect to hear the same bitching.  You guys criticized ANY player whenever they made the slightest mistake just to fit an agenda against Pace (ie idiots calling Arob overrated for a dropping a pass lol) so I expect the same for Poles. No trading up in the draft or trading away picks in FA either. You guys loved the Mack trade but then turned around and criticized Pace for not having draft capital and cap space the following year. So I guess Poles had better start digging thru the bargain bin....oh wait....nope he better not do that either, right?

We had a GM who was one of the best at drafting and finding talent in free agency (which is hard to find...especially for a brass like McCaskey) and that's wasn't good enough. Pace just sucked at choosing a HC.  Now we have a GM who is highly unlikely to be better at drafting AND he has to pick a HC during a year when there's a **** lists of jokes at HC. But hey...the grass is always greener on the other side.

I swear, it seems like your guys' criteria only fits when you want it too. You guys just follow whatever the media tells you on twitter and FB like good little sheep.

Christ man. For someone who seems to claim being neutral or based strictly off numbers you seem wildly emotional with these posts. You literally act like a spurned lover when it comes to Pace and this is one of those cases. (and no I'm not insinuating anything, just referencing the lashing out, ridiculous claims and thread you made).

Who hired Nagy? Pace. Who drafted Tru? Pace. Pace is supposed to be the one who is the expert at scouting, and he botched the pick, he allowed the trade, he approved the signings. As a scout you should be able to see more than physical traits, you should be able to see if the coach can scheme and make adjustments, see if they utilize their players' physical attributes correctly (using speed guys for more than curls or not using guys like Gabriel as blockers on screens even). At the point they make the pros you have a TON of tape on Dalton and Foles to know what they are, so how is it he STILL gets a pass? If you personally were asked if Foles or Dalton were guys that you thought would actually lead the team to a winning season would you have done it? Or thought Glennon was worth the contract Pace gave him? Well Facebook, twitter, and other "idiots" were clearly right over Pace. Most of us were too.

I do love how you say Pace "let the HC choose the QB" and then cry about us blaming him for it. IT WAS HIS DECISION!!! It's that simple dude. If you want the HC to be able to make the personnel choices then let him be the GM too. Pace doesn't get to wash his hands of it because you want him to be able to, and collaboration can't be used as a cop out either. Him letting a crap HC make his personnel choices was a laughable mistake. What is your infatuation with Pace? Seriously I don't get it. Was a decent at drafting? Sure. He also didn't think people like Amos and Floyd - two of his better picks- were worth re-signing though. So congrats? Is that still a net positive to you? You drafted two players that are performing well for other teams while we re-signed a corpse in DT and then paired a massive overpayment in EJax with a guy that warrants near the vet min. Maybe Pace should stay a scout and out of personnel decisions?

Pace  picked Fabujule in the 6th, Grasu in the 3rd, Whitehair in the 2nd, Morgan in the 5th, Daniels in the 2nd, no OL in 2019, two guys in the 7th, and then finally drafted OTs with Jenkins and Borom. I fully believe an OL should be take in the top 4 rounds every year but obviously know that is my preference over others. Pace took 7 years to draft an OT in the top 4 rounds. OT > IOL. Period. Fabujule was never a real OT here, Grasu was a terrible pick, Whitehair was a solid C and has been jumped around by the hack Pace hired, Morgan hasn't appeared in a game as far as I know, Daniels has had highs and lows but has been pretty good, Hambright is on NE and Simmons got a few snaps this year, and then FINALLY he took a swing at ACTUAL OTs. Seven years and you're crowing for him? That OL after 7 years look good to you that was put out there? We have the best chance at a QB in my lifetime and that OL is still not good enough for a rookie QB to develop in. It was bad enough Mustipher was an unquestioned starter in. I don't believe you would turn a blind eye to that and it clearly shows the OL wasn't THAT much of a focus if someone that bad is an unquestioned starter. And then trying to say Poles' picks need to be All Pros? Ridiculous man. lol

You make sure you keep the same energy where you defend every single pick he makes or no matter how pathetic the offense or defense is just use the same excuse that other areas need addressed. Every team has holes to fill and with a franchise that routinely has trash expectations on offense maybe the bar needs shifted a bit. Maybe the young potential franchise QBs need more than Leno, Massie, and 7th round swings at OT. But no matter what happens I expect you to defend Poles no matter how terrible one side of the ball may be, because there are holes to fill. After 7 years with Pace the Bears have significant holes on both sides of the ball. But that doesn't matter because everything is just a narrative against Pace... lol. I'm pretty sure most people we're happier with Mack than with what we expected Pace to be able to get in the first too. I mean WR who has as many TDs as you and me, busted EDGE who Pace thought would be a stud there but was actually an offball LB the whole time (and without the Mack trade would have been forced to stay in a role he sucked at), bust at QB, Smith (awesome pick). That was 3 bad picks regardless of how anyone feels before Smith. Yes, that warrants questioning of his ability to draft in the first. It absolutely does.

Pace just sucked at choosing a HC? So did we need to leave Pace in position and "just" let Polian choose the coach for him? How embarrassing for a GM to be so good at everything BUT choosing a coach. And even more embarrassing that he "let" his trash HC choose two over-the-hill vets to strap their careers to... Should he have let the fans pick the coach for him? We could have just done a poll on here or on the NFL's site. He has 1 player still on the team from 2015, 2 from 2016, 2 from 2017, 4 from 2018 (see if who we re-sign), 2 from 2019. 32 picks and he has 11 still on his team and some like Iggy are likely to leave this year. What happened to two good plus players and another starter each draft? You said he did "exactly this" but where? Are you counting Miller, Howard, Bullard, or others who he didn't bother to keep around?

In the end of it, we had one winning season in 7. Pace was allowed to completely rebuild the team as he wanted and chose his own HC and got one winning season and two playoff appearances (one we backed into and were never even actually competitive in). In both playoff games combined we scored 24 points. That is crap

 

 

Below I still agree with. Pace doesn't need to be demonized, he was much better than Emery and was never a bottom tier GM, but I still see no reason to accept the mediocrity he brought over his tenure. The results weren't good enough. Will Poles be better? I'm not betting on it, but I'll take the swing over proven mediocre results or Pace botching another HC pick. What changed from this post to now saying Pace did everything well but choosing HCs?

On 1/11/2022 at 9:19 PM, JAF-N72EX said:
On 1/11/2022 at 9:06 PM, Sugashane said:

So what I am hearing is Pace is the GM version of Kirk Cousins. 😉

Just teasing. lol

I'd say that's a pretty fair take on Pace, actually. That's why I can fully understand everyone wanting Pace gone. He can hit the ball well but he had trouble knocking it out of the park.  I'm just worried about what comes next since we still Mccaskey/Teddy with their hands in the jar.

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16 hours ago, Sugashane said:

For someone who seems to claim being neutral or based strictly off numbers

Don't put words in mouth. You tend to do this alot and quite frankly it's getting old.

Just because I choose to judge coaches, players, and teams by their peers, like any logical person would, and use actual data and resources to support my opinions, don't confuse this with claiming anything.

This method is a hell of alot better than just stating an opinion and trying pass it off as undeniable facts like alot of you do, which is also getting old.

16 hours ago, Sugashane said:

You literally act like a spurned lover when it comes to Pace and this is one of those cases. (and no I'm not insinuating anything, just referencing the lashing out, ridiculous claims and thread you made).

Right, because I'm calling you guys out on your BS and I want you to hold every GM to the same standard as you did with Pace. But now it seems like your bitching about me complaining about it because you know damn well that alot of your BS was exactly that....BULL****....and was only there to push an agenda. But if I'm wrong about this then it'll show, right?  So go ahead and feel how you wanna feel....just be sure you keep the same energy on an even playing field.

Remember, you said yourself that Poles shouldn't get special treatment right? Just remember that while reading this and moving forward.

So lets get to into it, since I already see you backpedaling and posting alot of nonsense here that needs addressing for future references if nothing else.

16 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Who hired Nagy? Pace.

Okay, and yesterday you said Eberflus wasn't even in your top-10 choice for HC and who hired him? Poles. So where's the backlash for that? How about holding him to the same standard instead of bitching about me making a thread about it. Or was that one of many standards that only applied for Pace?

It's funny how I was the only person who brought up Poles making a mistake at all (two mistakes actually since he was considering Dan Quinn too which would've been worse).  Everyone else has just been saying things along the lines of  "not my first choice", but not a single person has spoke up and said anything about how this wasn't good start for Poles at all.  

Notice how everybody suddenly got quiet around here.  Most of these cowards who spent the last 2 years bitching and whining about Pace hiring Nagy have been quiet as a mouse and they don't even have the nuts to voice an opinion on either Poles or Eberflus, and we all know the reasons for this.

17 hours ago, Sugashane said:

At the point they make the pros you have a TON of tape on Dalton and Foles to know what they are, so how is it he STILL gets a pass?

So you think Dalton and Foles were Pace's choice. Gotcha. We'll get back to this in a second.

17 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Him letting a crap HC make his personnel choices was a laughable mistake

But didn't you just say it was Pace's choice? Which is it?

19 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Sure. He also didn't think people like Amos and Floyd - two of his better picks- were worth re-signing though.

"HE" didn't?

So now the GM decides who stays, who goes, who fits the scheme, who doesn't, etc LOL. Then what was Nagy doing? By this logic, then you shouldn't have any issue with Pace's staff hiring since they apparently don't do anything anyhow,  and by extension, the only problem you should have with Nagy at this point is play-calling then, right? But then that contradicts everything you have been saying so....🤷‍♂️  Cmon now Suga, be better cos this just silly.

But fine, I'll roll with it. Just be sure to do the same with Poles in the future and don't blame Eberflus or anyone else for any roster changes.

17 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I do love how you say Pace "let the HC choose the QB" and then cry about us blaming him for it. IT WAS HIS DECISION!!!

Again,  now keep that mind when Eberflus inevitably chooses a QB--backup or not, and if he signs a QB equal or worse than Foles or Dalton then I expect you to add that his list of mistakes as well. Oh and context doesn't matter either. Unless ofcourse it was just to push your agenda.

 

19 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Pace  picked Fabujule in the 6th, Grasu in the 3rd, Whitehair in the 2nd, Morgan in the 5th, Daniels in the 2nd, no OL in 2019, two guys in the 7th, and then finally drafted OTs with Jenkins and Borom.

Now dissect and compare this to every other team in the league in the same way.

It's funny how none of you ever do this unless it fits your narrative.

17 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I fully believe an OL should be take in the top 4 rounds every year but obviously know that is my preference over others. Pace took 7 years to draft an OT in the top 4 rounds.

This is gonna be fun.

First of all, so now it's OT and not OL in general--just making sure since you said OL in the past. But anyhow, so which is it? Your preference, or are you holding it against Pace? Watch your step here to be sure you don't back pedal too far.  If it's the latter (which you have stated) then, like I said, I expect you to hold Poles to same standard. If he doesn't draft a OT in the first 4 rounds then I expect to hear you rage about it just as much.

Second, and the best one of all, so that's your criteria for a GM's draft tendency huh?  Well here's some mind-blowing facts for you. Get your pitchforks on hand and be ready to alert the media.

From 2015-2020,

  • 49 OT's were taken within the first 4 rounds (supplemental included)
  • Literally 1/3 of the league didn't draft a single OT in the first 4 rounds either
  • 7 of the 21 teams that did draft an OT only drafted one during that entire time
  • Guess how many the Chiefs drafted--you know, the team our new GM used to work for? ONE! Lucas Niang in the 3rd round and that wasn't until 2020.  7 years, 1 OT = terrible, according to your logic!

It took Dorsey 6 years to draft an OT in the top 4 rounds, and I assume you like him, but I don't see you calling for his head over it. The other teams on this list include ATL, CAR, DET, GB, BUF, LAC.  It looks like BOB meets your requirement though with 5 OTs. Although it's generally a bad sign if you have to use 5 top-4 picks on OTs in only 6 years. You have mentioned Speilman as someone you liked and he's has drafted 4 of them--just don't look at the 50% bust rate and 50% still up in the air.  Jacksonville maybe? They drafted 3.

Buy hey, facts be damned, right?  I'm sure this will get ignored too though like every other fact based opinion that doesn't match yours. Either that or you will somehow start applying context when it fits your argument.

19 hours ago, Sugashane said:

OT > IOL. Period.

Facts>>>your flawed logic. Period!

Quote

You make sure you keep the same energy where you defend every single pick he makes

Yeah, because I've defended every single pick Pace made lol. I judge my opinions based on facts and not just because I read it somewhere on a twitter facebook app, but you seem to be upset that those facts don't fit the narrative you want it too. But I can't help you with that.

20 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Pace just sucked at choosing a HC?  How embarrassing for a GM to be so good at everything BUT choosing a coach.

So you would rather a GM be worse at drafting but good at finding a HC? Welcome to 2022 with our new General mana......Oh wait.....his first move on the job and he chose a HC you didn't care for. I'll look forward to his first draft when he doesn't choose an OT in the 1st and then Poles will be 0-2 in your book. But i'm sure you wouldn't hold him to a different standard than Pace, right?

20 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I mean WR who has as many TDs as you and me,

You mean the same highly touted WR who didn't have a single injury issue heading into the draft and got inured by overworking himself in the offseason. Do you remember what the injury was and how they usually happen? I do. But I guess none of that matters because it doesn't fit the narrative.

Oh that's right, your one of those who foolishly blame the staff for injuries and context be damned.  Just be sure to do same with any injury that occurs during Poles tenure too.

20 hours ago, Sugashane said:

busted EDGE who Pace thought would be a stud there but was actually an offball LB the whole time

coming-to-america-arseniohall.gif

Now I've heard it all.

Imagine calling a guy with 20 sacks in the last 2 seasons an offball LB!

https://stathead.com/tiny/FRGSU

20 sacks in the last seasons is the 7th most in the league over the same span. This means Robert Quinn, Cameron Jordan, Shaq Barrett, Joey Bosa,

Floyd was always pressuring the QB, even here in Chicago. He always had one of the highest pressure rates in the league and now he's flourishing. 

I pointed this out before and I remember you discrediting pressures and saying you value sacks more than pressures and now that he has the sacks that still isn't good enough? GTFO with that noise.

Face it. This is a perfect case of you wanting to die on a burnt hill and not admit you were wrong because it would also mean that you have to give Pace credit which would kill your whole argument.

But facts be damned right?

However, I'll give you a chance to use FACTS (no more baseless opinions) to prove it that he's a bust and just an offball LB. Go ahead, I'm ready to kill every argument against it with FACTS.  I went extremely light with raw numbers and i'm sure you know that by now.

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Every team has holes to fill and with a franchise that routinely has trash expectations on offense maybe the bar needs shifted a bit. Maybe the young potential franchise QBs need more than Leno, Massie, and 7th round swings at OT. 

It's not just that...it's sticking with Trubisky, no matter what, when he shouldn't have. 

Two years ago, we should have seen the free agent acquisition of Andy Dalton, and the drafting of Eason and the best OL available in the second round. (I forget who that OL was at the moment, but he was pretty good, IIRC).

A good GM admits his mistakes. Pace...just couldn't. And now Eddie Jackson is one of the highest paid safeties in the league. 

4 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Imagine calling a guy with 20 sacks in the last 2 seasons an offball LB!

That's exactly what he is. The number of sacks he's accrued doesn't determine his position on the field. 

Floyd is NOT a good 3-4 OLB. And that's not what he's doing with the Rams, anyway. 

Floyd is a good player that was drafted to fill a role he shouldn't have been, by a flailing GM. 

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3 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Don't put words in mouth. You tend to do this alot and quite frankly it's getting old.

Just because I choose to judge coaches, players, and teams by their peers, like any logical person would, and use actual data and resources to support my opinions, don't confuse this with claiming anything.

This method is a hell of alot better than just stating an opinion and trying pass it off as undeniable facts like alot of you do, which is also getting old.

Before you get too pissy and into your feelings this was what I was roughly referring to

 

On 10/30/2018 at 11:24 PM, JAF-N72EX said:

Maybe. But you don't seem to come off as someone who can take the glasses off and look at things in a neutral way without allowing any bias distort with what you WANT to see. IMO. 

When I came back to this forum, that was my intentions. To offer my opinions without any clouded judgement involved (everyone's view is clouded to some extent ofcourse,  but my idea was to minimize it).

Because I had already known how this forum worked (AKA if you say anything negative at all about a rival division then your just a hater--regardless if you're just speaking the truth or not) I decided to be incognito and remain neutral in an effort to keep others from being able to use that against my opinion. But the longer it went on, the more I found out that it didn't matter anyways. Even against my own favorite team. If you speak bad about a team....you're just a hater...... that's how this forum works. Regardless.

I feel like I'm one of the very few who try and look at things in neutral way.

Sorry I put words in your mouth by using words you said. I'll do better.

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22 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Before you get too pissy and into your feelings this was what I was roughly referring to

Got it.  My apologies then.  However, I don't know about you but if I'm making a 4 year old reference I would atleast link it to avoid confusion because you had me lost. I thought about it and I thought you were saying that I said this recently.  But I suppose that's neither here nor there. Moving on.

 

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1 hour ago, abstract_thought said:

Bears under Pace were 48-65. They had 2 playoff appearances in 7 years. They won 0 playoff games.

Pace didn’t do a good job. It’s really that simple. Any GM would be held to the same standard.

Which is part of the reason why I understand WHY people wanted Pace fired. My issue here isn't with him being fired though. It's some of the outrageous expectations and in some cases downright laughable level of blame that I've always had an issue with (i.e bad at drafting, FA, etc). If someone in central park sneezed in the wrong direction then it was Pace's fault. 

 

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5 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Right, because I'm calling you guys out on your BS and I want you to hold every GM to the same standard as you did with Pace. But now it seems like your bitching about me complaining about it because you know damn well that alot of your BS was exactly that....BULL****....and was only there to push an agenda. But if I'm wrong about this then it'll show, right?  So go ahead and feel how you wanna feel....just be sure you keep the same energy on an even playing field.

What agenda am I pushing? That Pace was a mediocre GM? I fully believe that and his record speaks for itself. If you want to do whatever data dive or mental gymnastics you can to make him seem like a top GM then go for it. The wins/losses and playoff wins weren't impressive to me.

 

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Remember, you said yourself that Poles shouldn't get special treatment right? Just remember that while reading this and moving forward.

True. IDGAF about Poles as a person or anything. Football is entertainment and I care less about the Bears now than I ever have. If he gets us wins and postseason success then I'm happy enough with him. If he underperforms Pace in this then fire him. I couldn't care less. lol

If he gets fired with similar results I won't be crying about it, he's being paid to get the franchise to win and compete for Super Bowls. Of course there are multiple factors and it isn't a linear line but essentially that is it. No?

Quote

So lets get to into it, since I already see you backpedaling and posting alot of nonsense here that needs addressing for future references if nothing else.

Okay, and yesterday you said Eberflus wasn't even in your top-10 choice for HC and who hired him? Poles. So where's the backlash for that? How about holding him to the same standard instead of bitching about me making a thread about it. Or was that one of many standards that only applied for Pace?

I havent backpedaled on a single damn thing.

Didn't you just go on about "Just because I choose to judge coaches, players, and teams by their peers, like any logical person would, and use actual data and resources to support my opinions, don't confuse this with claiming anything?" What has Eberflus done yet? Just because I didn't want him doesn't mean I care about it. If he wins games he wins games. If his team comes out underprepared or can only beat the slumming teams, then he deserves bashing - and so will Poles.

Did I make threads against Pace right after he was signed? I don't remember doing that... What standards exactly should I have held against him in his first week of hiring? He isn't hiring based off my preferences, whatever. Nagy wasn't my first choice either but I was still hopeful he was going to be the guy.

Maybe I am hoping Polian knows more about football than me and garnered something from Eberflus in his interview(s) with him. That would be a novel idea compared to a guy who simply has to go off traits he sees and wants from his couch. hahaha

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It's funny how I was the only person who brought up Poles making a mistake at all (two mistakes actually since he was considering Dan Quinn too which would've been worse).  Everyone else has just been saying things along the lines of  "not my first choice", but not a single person has spoke up and said anything about how this wasn't good start for Poles at all.  

Rather pretentious to say that already. Maybe some of us want to give a guy a chance to suck before thrashing him. It fits my agenda.

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Notice how everybody suddenly got quiet around here.  Most of these cowards who spent the last 2 years bitching and whining about Pace hiring Nagy have been quiet as a mouse and they don't even have the nuts to voice an opinion on either Poles or Eberflus, and we all know the reasons for this.

Calling people cowards is just stupid. It proves you're totally emotional in this. Sorry, you're the one being self-righteous here and it doesn't take a pair of nuts to have an opinion online. I thought most people were fine with the hiring of Nagy but may have forgotten. I liked the attempt, but he was clearly in over his head. You use data and logic, wouldn't this be supported?

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So you think Dalton and Foles were Pace's choice. Gotcha. We'll get back to this in a second.

But didn't you just say it was Pace's choice? Which is it?

You're getting slow now. I did say Pace makes the personnel choices, if Nagy wants a player and Pace says no, then Nagy couldn't override him. You get that right?

YOU claimed Nagy made the choice, remember? I was clearly referencing that below.

On 1/27/2022 at 8:28 PM, Sugashane said:

A GM let his HC/OC pick his QBs in Foles and Dalton after realizing Mitch wasn't the guy and your blaming the GM for it. 

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"HE" didn't?

So now the GM decides who stays, who goes, who fits the scheme, who doesn't, etc LOL. Then what was Nagy doing? By this logic, then you shouldn't have any issue with Pace's staff hiring since they apparently don't do anything anyhow,  and by extension, the only problem you should have with Nagy at this point is play-calling then, right? But then that contradicts everything you have been saying so....🤷‍♂️  Cmon now Suga, be better cos this just silly.

Yes, the GM did have that authority. If he passes it on to the HC then that was HIS choice...

Maybe Nagy should have developed gameplans, ran practices, and helped players improve rather than regress. That is a primary responsibility for coaches man. If he did maybe his offenses wouldn't have sucked so much the last 3 years. But instead they were apparently telling the GM who he had to re-sign, cut, trade, and Pace was just their lackey. If he was a glorified scout then why be so upset he is gone?

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But fine, I'll roll with it. Just be sure to do the same with Poles in the future and don't blame Eberflus or anyone else for any roster changes.

Poles is over Eberflus, so ok. Eberflus is supposed to get the team ready to play. Of course there is come overlap and his opinions should at least be taken into consideration but I've never worked a job where I override the person who hired me. Would be neat.

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Again,  now keep that mind when Eberflus inevitably chooses a QB--backup or not, and if he signs a QB equal or worse than Foles or Dalton then I expect you to add that his list of mistakes as well. Oh and context doesn't matter either. Unless ofcourse it was just to push your agenda.

Do they try to force them to be starters? Do they pay a guy $6 mil per year when he had thrown 1 TD previously in his 7-8 years? If so, hell yes I'll say Poles is an idiot.

Ah, the empty buzzword strikes again. "Agenda." That's your version of "fake news" JAF. My only "agenda" is that I think Pace and Nagy were a lackluster duo who got mediocre results. After 7 years of Pace and 4 of Nagy we got 18ppg and 188 passing yards per game this season. That would have been great in the 1940s.

 

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It's funny how none of you ever do this unless it fits your narrative.

This is gonna be fun.

First of all, so now it's OT and not OL in general--just making sure since you said OL in the past. But anyhow, so which is it? Your preference, or are you holding it against Pace? Watch your step here to be sure you don't back pedal too far.  If it's the latter (which you have stated) then, like I said, I expect you to hold Poles to same standard. If he doesn't draft a OT in the first 4 rounds then I expect to hear you rage about it just as much.

So I have said repeatedly that I think OTs should be drafted and they usually can be moved inside with much greater chances than the other way. I've talked with @dll2000 on this. Also lets not just be intentionally obtuse. If you have two bookends that are entrenched and you draft another OT then *gasp* they will likely kick inside! OT is the priority position but obviously the entire OL needs filled.

I have also stated that I think you always need to try to have one back up OT and IOL that are being groomed because there will be injuries and people leave in FA. I've also expressed my dislike for Leno and Massie. If you have a healthy Bak, TSmith or someone then clearly that position isn't a concern. Ive disliked them separately of Pace, and IIRC I complimented Pace for getting decent value compared to some of the deals on FA. Again though, his lack of attention there in the draft meant he had to lower his standards there.

QB, OT, EDGE, CB, and ballhawk S. Those spots are the core of a team and are paid higher than most others for a reason. That isn't discounting ILB or DT, it doesn't slight Roquan or Aaron Donald, but these are the positions that are crucial and if Poles does a crap job of them, then he needs sent off as well.

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Second, and the best one of all, so that's your criteria for a GM's draft tendency huh?  Well here's some mind-blowing facts for you. Get your pitchforks on hand and be ready to alert the media.

From 2015-2020,

  • 49 OT's were taken within the first 4 rounds (supplemental included)
  • Literally 1/3 of the league didn't draft a single OT in the first 4 rounds either
  • 7 of the 21 teams that did draft an OT only drafted one during that entire time
  • Guess how many the Chiefs drafted--you know, the team our new GM used to work for? ONE! Lucas Niang in the 3rd round and that wasn't until 2020.  7 years, 1 OT = terrible, according to your logic!

It took Dorsey 6 years to draft an OT in the top 4 rounds, and I assume you like him, but I don't see you calling for his head over it. The other teams on this list include ATL, CAR, DET, GB, BUF, LAC.  It looks like BOB meets your requirement though with 5 OTs. Although it's generally a bad sign if you have to use 5 top-4 picks on OTs in only 6 years. You have mentioned Speilman as someone you liked and he's has drafted 4 of them--just don't look at the 50% bust rate and 50% still up in the air.  Jacksonville maybe? They drafted 3.

IDGAF about Dorsey's head and not sure why I'm supposed to like him. I don't call for any other GMs head based on their production. If they do poorly it doesn't hurt the Bears so why would I care? Occasionally I see someone like Wilson getting a chance at a GM spot or a former player I like coaching so I hope they do well - except against the Bears.

You said you were happy with the OL (and yes you did, don't accuse me of putting words in your mouth...)

On 9/20/2021 at 11:48 PM, JAF-N72EX said:

I never said I wasn't happy with the OL (quite the opposite actually)

Well damn Pace knocked it out of the park with this OL (or Nagy, or Castillo, whoever you say made the actual choices here). Bears had the worst Adjusted sack rate, the most sacks total, and finished bottom 5 or 10 in most passing statistics - in large part due to that OL and HC that Pace picked.

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Buy hey, facts be damned, right?  I'm sure this will get ignored too though like every other fact based opinion that doesn't match yours. Either that or you will somehow start applying context when it fits your argument.

Hello pot, meet kettle

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Facts>>>your flawed logic. Period!

PERIOD! THATLL LEARN ME!!!

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Yeah, because I've defended every single pick Pace made lol. I judge my opinions based on facts and not just because I read it somewhere on a twitter facebook app, but you seem to be upset that those facts don't fit the narrative you want it too. But I can't help you with that.

Claiming to use facts (look above, not putting words in your mouth... seriously) and then making stupid references to twitter, facebook shows you're nothing but biased. I have no twitter account - said here several times and actually see my twitter references here or another Bears forum - and facebook is for comedy. I love how I don't know who DBB or any of there insiders or whoever are because I couldn't give a damn about their opinion but you insinuate that is exactly where I get my information. Its laughable you try to claim facts at that. You can't even help yourself when you get in your feelings. lol

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So you would rather a GM be worse at drafting but good at finding a HC? Welcome to 2022 with our new General mana......Oh wait.....his first move on the job and he chose a HC you didn't care for. I'll look forward to his first draft when he doesn't choose an OT in the 1st and then Poles will be 0-2 in your book. But i'm sure you wouldn't hold him to a different standard than Pace, right?

What results in winning seasons and postseason wins?

What do you know, more grandstanding from the facts based man who don't give a damn bout what no man says... but has constant backlash for anyone who has a difference of opinion. But then screams how it is always about football only. Ok. lol

I expect you to defend him no matter how good or bad he does, because you're willing to die on a hill for Pace (my words, not yours, its ok. I know)

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You mean the same highly touted WR who didn't have a single injury issue heading into the draft and got inured by overworking himself in the offseason. Do you remember what the injury was and how they usually happen? I do. But I guess none of that matters because it doesn't fit the narrative.

Yep!! Thats him. Doesn't discount my point even if it differs from YOUR agenda. End results matter, not how you try to spin them.

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Oh that's right, your one of those who foolishly blame the staff for injuries and context be damned.  Just be sure to do same with any injury that occurs during Poles tenure too.

When did I say the staff caused that? Can you point out where I said his staff caused the injury? Don't be putting words in my mouth, right?

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coming-to-america-arseniohall.gif

Now I've heard it all.

That many voices in your head I'm sure you have.

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Imagine calling a guy with 20 sacks in the last 2 seasons an offball LB!

https://stathead.com/tiny/FRGSU

20 sacks in the last seasons is the 7th most in the league over the same span. This means Robert Quinn, Cameron Jordan, Shaq Barrett, Joey Bosa,

Floyd was always pressuring the QB, even here in Chicago. He always had one of the highest pressure rates in the league and now he's flourishing. 

I pointed this out before and I remember you discrediting pressures and saying you value sacks more than pressures and now that he has the sacks that still isn't good enough? GTFO with that noise.

Whatever you say. Why didn't Pace try to re-sign him with a more serious deal? Pace does so well with it - everything but hiring HCs you know, if he drafted such a good player and was so great why didn't anyone give him more than $10 mil for his services after leaving here? Did Pace believe sacks are more important than pressures?

Lets follow your logic. Pressures great and sacks are ok. Pace doesn't re-sign Floyd and makes a big deal to go get Quinn (or Nagy does, whoever). Floyd balls out and gets a bigger deal at $16 mil per year for 4 years. Let's say this again - he STILL has a top passrush rate (before and after his lack of re-signing and one year deal for the Rams) then has a 10 sack season and gets a bigger, longer deal... Hell at a glance his two most productive seasons came while being AWAY from Pace. Away from Nagy...after all he is flourishing "now" you say.

Remember I wanted to pair him with Smith in the middle too rather than re-sign DT. The bust comment was one I specifically had with Soul repeatedly - as an EDGE he was a bust for the Bears. What he does for anyone else is irrelevant for Pace, or it could actually be used against him since he thrived after leaving the Bears.

Floyd definitely exceeded my expectations though.

 

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Face it. This is a perfect case of you wanting to die on a burnt hill and not admit you were wrong because it would also mean that you have to give Pace credit which would kill your whole argument.

But facts be damned right?

However, I'll give you a chance to use FACTS (no more baseless opinions) to prove it that he's a bust and just an offball LB. Go ahead, I'm ready to kill every argument against it with FACTS.  I went extremely light with raw numbers and i'm sure you know that by now.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

What agenda am I pushing?

An agenda to needlesly make Pace look as bad as possible just to support your claim even if it means ignoring facts and context (i.e blaming Pace for White's unforseen injury and falsely tagging Floyd "a bust" and a "Offball LB" just to prove a wrongful point).

32 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

I havent backpedaled on a single damn thing.

History says otherwise, as I've already pointed out.

37 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Didn't you just go on about "Just because I choose to judge coaches, players, and teams by their peers, like any logical person would, and use actual data and resources to support my opinions, don't confuse this with claiming anything?"

Yeah I said this in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT context regarding a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT portion of our argument.

What the hell does this have to do with my response to a statement that you made?

54 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Just because I didn't want him doesn't mean I care about it. If he wins games he wins games. If his team comes out underprepared or can only beat the slumming teams, then he deserves bashing - and so will Poles.

Oh, so you spent X amount of years complaining about Pace hiring Nagy but now you just don't care? So the parameters have changed now between GMs. Got it.

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

What standards exactly should I have held against him in his first week of hiring? He isn't hiring based off my preferences, whatever. Nagy wasn't my first choice either but I was still hopeful he was going to be the guy.

So lets go back a bit on Nagy here in how it pertains to Pace just to get **** straight. You have claimed that you didn't like Nagy (just like Eberflus) and had been down on him since the opener of the GB game, correct? (That's a rhetorical question because we both know the answer is yes).

So does this mean if Eberflus does the same thing in week 1 that your gonna start calling for heads in the same way then, right? Remember, keep the same energy.

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

Rather pretentious to say that already. Maybe some of us want to give a guy a chance to suck before thrashing him. It fits my agenda.

it's about as pretentious as prematurely calling Quinn a "bust FA' when he was injured and adding it to the list of Pace's failures.

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

Calling people cowards is just stupid.

In most cases I agree, but it's a very apt statement to my point.  Remember when you were accusing me of not making a stand for one side or the other (I'm paraphrasing) in the Week 1 thread ?  (Internet data says you viewed the thread 6  hours ago-- to probably prepare your response for this thread-- so I'm sure you read it). If not let me know and I'll point you in the right direction.

So wouldn't you file that in the same category? Or is that different now?

My point is that people who had an issue with Pace/Nagy and who also voiced their opinions on Poles/Eberflus before the media could tell them what to say (like yourself and Madmike) is a MUCH more respectable approach than those like the other clowns here who have suddenly curled up into a ball just so they can say later on "I knew it" ---like the OP for example.

Watch this. @beardown3231 , what's your opinion on Poles/Eb? What's the media telling you to say? Earlier this week you questioned me about not liking a DC as HC? Why was that? *insert ambiguous artificial responses from social media*

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

You're getting slow now.

Calling people slow is just stupid.

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

I did say Pace makes the personnel choices, if Nagy wants a player and Pace says no, then Nagy couldn't override him. You get that right?

Oh yeah... I get it. But that still doesn't answer my question does it?

So you think it was Pace's choice to sign Dalton and Foles and not Nagy and Lazors? That's ridiculous.

I' gotta go and I'll finish the rest of this later.

 

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