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Fire Pace and Nagy


beardown3231

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1 minute ago, soulman said:

It goes without saying that any wholesale changes are gonna have to come from the top.

Paces method of building his roster has failed too often.  He's over spent on positions or players who simply don't deliver as expected and his decisions on 3 or 4 in this last year have caused some real hurt now.

I don't have an answer either other than to question why some of these guys who were once top draft picks don't pan out but we seem to be a rescue squad for them and have been throughout most of Pace's tenure.

He ***** around not extending the one really good WR we do have because he doesn't want to pay him the market rate but he'll keep Jimmy Graham around for what?  He gave DT a gift because of his intangibles but how much good have those done us since he got his extension.

How much are we paying for a pass rush that can't seem to get home?  What good does it do to pay EJax based on picks he won't get when he's playing more at SS than FS?  Pace painted himself into a corner big time with those deal and his most recent draft picks.

It's always half a team.  The higher paid starters aren't producing and the reserves can't step up to replace them.  Why?  That part is on Nagy and his staff.  I realize it only one game but how much more do we need to see to recognize that the pattern is still the same?

IMHO Justin Fields is hope for the future only if we change how we do things and also IMHO that means a new GM with a different approach to building his roster and a new HC who can actually coach his entire football team not just doodle schemes that others laugh at.

lEaRn FoOtBaLl

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10 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

I still think Pace is extremely harshly judged...this roster was an utter dumpster fire when he took over then got saddled with old man Fox when he clearly didn't want him...since then he has built a talent group...probably more talented than the last 10 years...but I can't over look the fact that Nagy just doesn't seem to have it as a HC in big games...he will win us games that he should win and that is why he doesn't have a losing record but when it comes to games against top opposition we go in with nothing but hope and never expectation...no point being a middle of the road franchise...blow it up from top to bottom and don't do a half arse job.

But Mike.  Year after year this roster has had holes.  More often than not either at QB, the OL, or both.  One reason for that and maybe the primary reason has been a combination of poor drafting on Pace's part and his tendency to trade away picks to get "his guy".

I'm not saying some of those trades haven't paid off but they're often left us with fewer picks with which to fill holes and the OL has probably suffered more than anything.  The cost of starting caliber NFL OL has gotten too steep to be buying an OL in FA the way Angelo did prior to the 2006 Super Bowl.  You have to draft and develop your own and we've failed at that.

I don't believe Nagy's offense would be anything to brag about even with a great OL but without one were completely hosed.  The accountability for that rests squarely on Ryan Pace's shoulders.  He did inherit a poor roster but Mike this is 7 years later and it still has too many holes.  We've also traded away more picks in order to draft Fields. 

How do we build an OL without either getting really lucky in the middle or later round or keep playing the rescue game with other teams castoffs?  The only two Super Bowls we've been to in the past 35 years have featured very good experienced OL.  If we want to get there again we need more than Justin Fields.  We need blockers in front of him far better than those we have.

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9 minutes ago, soulman said:

But Mike.  Year after year this roster has had holes.  More often than not either at QB, the OL, or both.  One reason for that and maybe the primary reason has been a combination of poor drafting on Pace's part and his tendency to trade away picks to get "his guy".

I'm not saying some of those trades haven't paid off but they're often left us with fewer picks with which to fill holes and the OL has probably suffered more than anything.  The cost of starting caliber NFL OL has gotten too steep to be buying an OL in FA the way Angelo did prior to the 2006 Super Bowl.  You have to draft and develop your own and we've failed at that.

I don't believe Nagy's offense would be anything to brag about even with a great OL but without one were completely hosed.  The accountability for that rests squarely on Ryan Pace's shoulders.  He did inherit a poor roster but Mike this is 7 years later and it still has too many holes.  We've also traded away more picks in order to draft Fields. 

How do we build an OL without either getting really lucky in the middle or later round or keep playing the rescue game with other teams castoffs?  The only two Super Bowls we've been to in the past 35 years have featured very good experienced OL.  If we want to get there again we need more than Justin Fields.  We need blockers in front of him far better than those we have.

Again I think saying he hasn't tried to build an OL is harsh...Whitehair, Daniels & Jenkins were all 2nd round picks...he has hasn't had great success up front no doubt but he has at least tried to build it...

Building an NFL roster is hard...harder than it probably ever has been and tons of teams have holes...Pace has done significantly more good than bad IMO but like you said it has been seven years now...time to hand it off to someone else who might be better at filling those holes.

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25 minutes ago, Pool said:

Its one game no one expected us to win. Let's not write this team off yet even though there are (many) obvious reasons for concern.

That is the point tho...no one expected us to win...no one...so what does that say?...

It says we are a middle of the road win some lose some team that will never be truly competing with the elite of the league...that isn't enough in a league were there can only ever be one true winner.

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28 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

Again I think saying he hasn't tried to build an OL is harsh...Whitehair, Daniels & Jenkins were all 2nd round picks...he has hasn't had great success up front no doubt but he has at least tried to build it...

Building an NFL roster is hard...harder than it probably ever has been and tons of teams have holes...Pace has done significantly more good than bad IMO but like you said it has been seven years now...time to hand it off to someone else who might be better at filling those holes.

OK, but Whitehair is a slightly above average journeyman OG.  Daniels has yet to stay healthy enough to live up to his potential and is also due for an extension.  Does he get paid or not?

Jenkins was risky pick and that gamble didn't pay off as far as his assuming the LT spot once Leno was let go.  Borom may actually have a better shot at LT but now he's hurt as well we just don't know how badly.  We should also be ready to accept that Jenkins may never play again or at least now at the level expected and quite possibly only as a RT or an OG. 

Mustipher even having built more muscle bulk still can't handle size and power so he's not likely to be a long term solution at OC and who knows what we can expect out of Ifedi.  Castillo believes he could be a Pro Bowler yet he hasn't elevated himself much above how he played in Seattle. This OL has more question marks that "The Riddler". 

It's not a good OL.

Under Pace we've gotten to two playoff games and lost both.  That's it.  In seven years you have to show more than that especially when you had a shot at drafting a franchise QB in 2017 and you whiffed and took the wrong guy.  Fields is his do over but how many draft picks did we trade away to get those two?  Those are all picks that weren't spent on the OL.

Look at how much time Stafford had to throw last night.  We had one sack and yet we're supposed to have one of the best front sevens in the NFL????  Are we that bad or is the LA OL that good?  Just trying to find good OL isn't enough.  You have to succeed or your offense is doomed so I really can't get into giving points for effort any longer.  Not after Jenkins.

Edited by soulman
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40 minutes ago, Pool said:

Its one game no one expected us to win. Let's not write this team off yet even though there are (many) obvious reasons for concern.

Will they be expected to beat Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Baltimore, Seattle, SF, or Arizona? No? Then that shows that they're a very average if not below average team. What else is new?

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4 minutes ago, soulman said:

OK, but Whitehair is a slightly above average journeyman OG.  Daniels has yet to stay healthy enough to live up to his potential and is also due for an extension.  Does he get paid or not?

Jenkins was risky pick and that gamble didn't pay off as far as his assuming the LT spot once Leno was let go.  Borom may actually have a better shot at LT but now he's hurt as well we just don't know how badly.  We should also be ready to accept that Jenkins may never play again or at least now at the level expected and quite possibly only as a RT or an OG. 

Mustipher even having built more muscle bulk still can't handle size and power so he's not likely to be a long term solution at OC and who knows what we can expect out of Ifedi.  Castillo believes he could be a Pro Bowler yet he hasn't elevated himself much above how he played in Seattle. This OL has more question marks that "The Riddler". 

It's not a good OL.

Under Pace we've gotten to two playoff games and lost both.  That's it.  In seven years you have to show more than that especially when you had a shot at drafting a franchise QB in 2017 and you whiffed and took the wrong guy.  Fields is his do over but how many draft picks did we trade away to get those two?  Those are all picks that weren't spent on the OL.

Look at how much time Stafford had to throw last night.  We had one sack and yet we're supposed to have one of the best front sevens in the NFL????  Are we that bad or is the LA OL that good?  Just trying to find good OL isn't enough.  You have to succeed or your offense is doomed so I really can't get into giving points for effort any longer.  Not after Jenkins.

No man...just no...Whitehair is better than a ton of OGs out there...

Again no one is saying it is an elite OL but it held up pretty well last night...I would also say getting to a scheme that actually brings the best out of guys like Whitehair and Daniels would massively help...they are far more stretch zone linemen than they are power guys.

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9 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

That is the point tho...no one expected us to win...no one...so what does that say?...

It says we are a middle of the road win some lose some team that will never be truly competing with the elite of the league...that isn't enough in a league were there can only ever be one true winner.

The worst part of it is Nagy saying more recently that we may be four or five games in before everything clicks and then of course if it doesn't there will be even more reasons why it hasn't where he accepts the blame yet fixes nothing because the real problem is him.

It's way too early to call for his job and we have never fired a HC in midseason but if GMcC ever gonna be believed and keep any semblance of his reputation intact then he may need to come down hard and fast if the losses keep piling up as they have before.

We often talk about a HC losing his team but what about a franchise losing it's fans?

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Just now, soulman said:

The worst part of it is Nagy saying more recently that we may be four or five games in before everything clicks and then of course if it doesn't there will be even more reasons why it hasn't where he accepts the blame yet fixes nothing because the real problem is him.

It's way too early to call for his job and we have never fired a HC in midseason but if GMcC ever gonna be believed and keep any semblance of his reputation intact then he may need to come down hard and fast if the losses keep piling up as they have before.

We often talk about a HC losing his team but what about a franchise losing it's fans?

That for me was the final nail in Nagy's coffin.

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In terms of Head Coach an offence I am really going to keep an eye on this season is Seattle...Shane Waldron has been described by Russell Wilson as a "wizard"...first year OC and play caller but that offence would fit our guys really well and a lot of the players are comparable.

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1 minute ago, Madmike90 said:

No man...just no...Whitehair is better than a ton of OGs out there...

Again no one is saying it is an elite OL but it held up pretty well last night...I would also say getting to a scheme that actually brings the best out of guys like Whitehair and Daniels would massively help...they are far more stretch zone linemen than they are power guys.

Well I watched Donald eat him alive to get one sack and he had a number of almosts and those came through Whitehair.  Whether or not he's better than some isn't the point.  He's not anywhere near an All Pro even second or third team.  Mike.....we need some elite OL.

You may want to send a question about the scheme into Ask Larry.  This year it was decided they needed to be more power type guys.  Now who decided that and if they can't play that style why would we do it?  If you can unravel what goes on in the minds of Matt Nagy and Co please let me know.

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We can argue over individual players, but the results say everything that needs to be said. Whether it's picking the wrong players or valuing the wrong positions or overvaluing players, this just isn't a good roster. There are several starters who wouldn't even make a roster for any other team in the league. There are more starters who wouldn't start anywhere else. Even the good players aren't really game-breaking, and there aren't enough of them to build anything substantial.

Edited by abstract_thought
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3 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

In terms of Head Coach an offence I am really going to keep an eye on this season is Seattle...Shane Waldron has been described by Russell Wilson as a "wizard"...first year OC and play caller but that offence would fit our guys really well and a lot of the players are comparable.

Yes, 100% agreed. He came from McVay's group but it seems like he's going to succeed without McVay. I really like the arc of his career because this season he's going to show what he can do on his own without McVay's voice in the room.

Nagy never did that and it's clear he can't succeed without Reid.

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