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Fire Pace and Nagy


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38 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

Bottom line is that in any field there are people who are more suited to direction and there are people more suited to specifics. The temperaments, skills, and personality required are completely different between those things. Not every genius pianist is a composer. Some just love playing the piano.

Often the most masterful people struggle when asked to look at things at a broader level. Their passion is for specifics - that's what makes them good in the 1st place.

Even if you can look at things at a broader level you have to be able to have a good eye for using talents of others and allowing room for innovation and independent action.

Alexander and Napoleon recognized that strength of a military will come down to officers and sergeants and their abilities and leeway to act independently as situation calls for in unified pursuit of greater goal or task.

In program building the ladies at the booster club are important.  The alumni are important.  The scout is important.   The nutritionist is important.   The strength coach is important.  

 You have to utilize their talents to excel in their areas and give them authority over same and not think you are a great genius who will dictate how each section is run to the letter.   Specialization allows people to get very good at something, something you probably, almost guaranteed, aren't as good at as them in that area.          

You should be generally hiring good people and letting them do their thing in their area.   If you aren't getting results find different people.    You should self examine too and maybe your interference or not giving them time or resources is causing the problem and not them.   Talk to them and see what they need or want.   

Nagy is/was a classic example of a guy trying to wear too many hats in trying to run offense completely and run team. 

Even his hero and mentor Reid delegates most of the offensive work as Nagy himself attests to in multiple interviews.  Not sure why Nagy didn't follow that example.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Hoge and Jahns:  We wasted entire offseason on Dalton.  What were they doing?  

This from guys who actually get to go to many practices and watch.

LOL.  Who could have seen those criticisms coming?

We have wasted an entire season on Nagy which is more of a concern...I honestly believe this roster is way more talented than they are being allowed to show...why these guys aren't pointing that out more I will never know...tear this coaching staff down on Black Monday and give these players a chance.

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30 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

We have wasted an entire season on Nagy which is more of a concern...I honestly believe this roster is way more talented than they are being allowed to show...why these guys aren't pointing that out more I will never know...tear this coaching staff down on Black Monday and give these players a chance.

That gives some credit to Pace, but Pace can't seem to recognize bad coaching and also seems to contribute to it.

 

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2 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Hoge and Jahns:  We wasted entire offseason on Dalton.  What were they doing?  

This from guys who actually get to go to many practices and watch.

LOL.  Who could have seen those criticisms coming?

i-didnt-see-that-one-coming.jpg

 

4 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

We have wasted an entire season on Nagy which is more of a concern...I honestly believe this roster is way more talented than they are being allowed to show...why these guys aren't pointing that out more I will never know...tear this coaching staff down on Black Monday and give these players a chance.

You're being too kind.

Right now the Bears are 8th in PPG, which I think is damn good for the lack of talent in the backfield. Passrush has been excellent overall. That was with Goldman coming on late, Hicks being on the mend, etc. That I am actually very pleased with. Need to work on finishing 3rd downs, but lack of talent in the back end makes the pressure entirely on the passrush.

But on offense we are (again) 30th in the league at 16.3 PPG. That's pathetic. We only have 3 passing TDs which is worst in the league. 27th in first downs, last in yards per play, 28th in drives ending in scores. We aren't rolling out Tru/Wright/Bellamy, but are actually scoring 0.2 PPG less than what that JV roster averaged.

2017........................2021

Tru..........................Fields

Howard..................Monty

Cohen ...................Williams/Herbert

Wright....................ARob

Bellamy..................Mooney

Inman.....................Goodwin

Miller......................Kmet

Sims.......................Graham

Fox.........................Nagy

Loggains................Lazor

 

Fields is better than Tru, Monty I give an edge to over Howard (though he was a beast that year), I will give Cohen over Williams/Herbert, ARob is closer to Rice than Wright was to ARob, Mooney fits the same description, Goodwin is better by a substantial bit, Miller was better than Kmet but had the career ending injrury, Graham still has some minimal value in the redzone so he gets the edge here, both trash and will be about the same win/loss for their career after this season IMO, and Lazor gets an edge but it still isn't by a ton. Loggains had Matt freaking Barkley performing at a similar production that he has Fields on.

 

This isn't a Super Bowl team, far from it. But it isn't a dumpster fire roster and offensively the product being put out is atrocious. You snag Tebow, Barkley or Sanchez out of retirement and give them an offseason with this cast around them and a real coach/playcaller and you should be able to best 17 PPG. This level of production is laughable.

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2 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

That gives some credit to Pace, but Pace can't seem to recognize bad coaching and also seems to contribute to it.

 

I will also give Pace some credit because I think he deserves some for turning round and utter dumpster fire under Emery/Trestman to be at least a professional organisation again...he has made a ton of improvements behind the scenes and drafted some quality players especially later in the draft...

For that praise there have also been too many early round busts...too many times we have traded picks away...too many poor contracts in free agency and last and the most concerning would be his choice of coach and the ability to build a staff...

The McCaskey's love him...I still like him and think he would be great as a president...but we need a new mindset in the front office.

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7 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

i-didnt-see-that-one-coming.jpg

 

You're being too kind.

Right now the Bears are 8th in PPG, which I think is damn good for the lack of talent in the backfield. Passrush has been excellent overall. That was with Goldman coming on late, Hicks being on the mend, etc. That I am actually very pleased with. Need to work on finishing 3rd downs, but lack of talent in the back end makes the pressure entirely on the passrush.

But on offense we are (again) 30th in the league at 16.3 PPG. That's pathetic. We only have 3 passing TDs which is worst in the league. 27th in first downs, last in yards per play, 28th in drives ending in scores. We aren't rolling out Tru/Wright/Bellamy, but are actually scoring 0.2 PPG less than what that JV roster averaged.

2017........................2021

Tru..........................Fields

Howard..................Monty

Cohen ...................Williams/Herbert

Wright....................ARob

Bellamy..................Mooney

Inman.....................Goodwin

Miller......................Kmet

Sims.......................Graham

Fox.........................Nagy

Loggains................Lazor

 

Fields is better than Tru, Monty I give an edge to over Howard (though he was a beast that year), I will give Cohen over Williams/Herbert, ARob is closer to Rice than Wright was to ARob, Mooney fits the same description, Goodwin is better by a substantial bit, Miller was better than Kmet but had the career ending injrury, Graham still has some minimal value in the redzone so he gets the edge here, both trash and will be about the same win/loss for their career after this season IMO, and Lazor gets an edge but it still isn't by a ton. Loggains had Matt freaking Barkley performing at a similar production that he has Fields on.

 

This isn't a Super Bowl team, far from it. But it isn't a dumpster fire roster and offensively the product being put out is atrocious. You snag Tebow, Barkley or Sanchez out of retirement and give them an offseason with this cast around them and a real coach/playcaller and you should be able to best 17 PPG. This level of production is laughable.

I would disagree a little...there is no one I would pick from that 2017 team over what we have in 2021 which is even more concerning...

My problem is that we are taking talented players and putting them in a broken system...at this point I honestly think we could bring Mahomes or Allen here and they would look significantly worse...bring Kelce or Kettle here and I think they would get bored of how little they would be involved...bring Diggs or Chase here and again we would still be asking them to run stupid curl routes...I just think the scheme has no identity or even philosophies...I would love to hear Nagy actually explain what we are trying to do offensively because I am not sure he would be able to at this point.  

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@Sugashane

I'll do you one better.   Let's compare our roster to NE.  Pretty even offensively talentwise, add in defense and Bears are a lot better.

WR1:  Agholor, Nelson U/LV      Robinson

WR2:  Meyers                             Mooney

RB:   Harris                                   Montgomery

TE:   Smith                                     Kmet

TE:   Henry                                 Graham

RB1:  Harris                              Montgomery

QB:  Jones                                Fields

20.8 ppg 1934 yds vs               16.3 1477 yards

Difference isn't huge, but it is significant.

Patriots prepared their QB to play football in offseason and continue to teach him to play their offensive scheme and he is looking to be on a fine track.  

Mac looks like an NFL QB right now.   Not great by any means, a rookie QB on an okay team just like Bears, but Mac is running an NFL offense.  Something he can build off.     

Fields is running 6 OL and 3 TE sets and playing not to lose games.  He runs plays where he play fakes to no one.  Where everyone runs deep.  Where everyone runs curls.   

This is what Fields is supposed to run in future?  No.  They do it because they didn't prepare him and they are trying to gimmick way to wins.    

Which guy is being developed better?  There is no question it is Mac.

The "plan" was and is and continues to be stupid.   Time to move on from these guys.

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

I will also give Pace some credit because I think he deserves some for turning round and utter dumpster fire under Emery/Trestman to be at least a professional organisation again...he has made a ton of improvements behind the scenes and drafted some quality players especially later in the draft...

For that praise there have also been too many early round busts...too many times we have traded picks away...too many poor contracts in free agency and last and the most concerning would be his choice of coach and the ability to build a staff...

The McCaskey's love him...I still like him and think he would be great as a president...but we need a new mindset in the front office.

They love him because he runs Halas hall and entire Bears org. staff efficiently from top to bottom and keeps them informed.

But that isn't that impressive to me.    Kind of like when Chris Rock used to say people brag that they have never been to jail.   You aren't supposed to go to jail.

You should be able to hire competent people to scout, run kitchen/nutrition, weight room, grounds keeping, coaches, etc. and oversee them as a competent manager.

That it was not done great in past, doesn't make Pace great at it.   

You don't have to fire everyone in building if you fire Pace/Nagy if there are things you like about way Nagy did things keep those people in place or talk to new guy about keeping them.

Your main problem right now is your HC coach is sub par and the GM overall philosophy on team building and player development is flawed and not working and that is trickling everywhere.   

That they are nice guys and good administrators and media savvy is not most important thing.   

Drafting, FA, coaching and player development is most important.

Drafting and FA has been mixed bag  Drafting maybe above average and FA below average.   Player development and coaching has been subpar.

7 years is enough data

 

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6 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Hoge and Jahns:  We wasted entire offseason on Dalton.  What were they doing?  

This from guys who actually get to go to many practices and watch.

LOL.  Who could have seen those criticisms coming?

definitely not you. pretty sure you were a fan of him sitting for the season and learning how to play behind a vet

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2 hours ago, dll2000 said:

@Sugashane

I'll do you one better.   Let's compare our roster to NE.  Pretty even offensively talentwise, add in defense and Bears are a lot better.

WR1:  Agholor, Nelson U/LV      Robinson

WR2:  Meyers                             Mooney

RB:   Harris                                   Montgomery

TE:   Smith                                     Kmet

TE:   Henry                                 Graham

RB1:  Harris                              Montgomery

QB:  Jones                                Fields

20.8 ppg 1934 yds vs               16.3 1477 yards

Difference isn't huge, but it is significant.

Patriots prepared their QB to play football in offseason and continue to teach him to play their offensive scheme and he is looking to be on a fine track.  

Mac looks like an NFL QB right now.   Not great by any means, a rookie QB on an okay team just like Bears, but Mac is running an NFL offense.  Something he can build off.     

Fields is running 6 OL and 3 TE sets and playing not to lose games.  He runs plays where he play fakes to no one.  Where everyone runs deep.  Where everyone runs curls.   

This is what Fields is supposed to run in future?  No.  They do it because they didn't prepare him and they are trying to gimmick way to wins.    

Which guy is being developed better?  There is no question it is Mac.

The "plan" was and is and continues to be stupid.   Time to move on from these guys.

 

 

 

I think at times it is easy to compare names of guys and say who is better and who isn't...but let's try it this way...

The Saints offence this offseason lost a HoF QB in Drew Brees...Michael Thomas who has been a leading receiver in the NFL for years hasn't caught a ball all year...Tre'Quan Smith hasn't played all year...Jared Cook who caught 16 TDs over the last two seasons...they averaged 29.1 PPG in 2020...who has replaced them?...

QB...Jameis Winston...a QB who throw 30 Interceptions in his last full season.

RB...Alvin Kamara is averaging only 3.9 YPC.

WR...Marquez Callaway...Undrafted in 2020.

WR...Deonte Harris...Undrafted in 2019.

TE...Juwan Johnson...Undrafted in 2020.

The Saints are currently averaging 25.4 PPG...9.1 PPG more than Nagy has managed with the talent we have...

Nagy is holding these guys back where as a coach like Payton puts his players in a position to win.

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31 minutes ago, HuskieBear said:

definitely not you. pretty sure you were a fan of him sitting for the season and learning how to play behind a vet

I don't agree with it, but that system of development kind of makes logical sense when you have a QB who has been present and good with the established coach and is moving on in a year due to age or contract.

Acquiring a journeyman FA QB from outside and teaching him your system and way you do things while your first round QB sits and watches on a non-contending team makes no sense at all to me.   Even if vet QB can learn it fast.   Pace did it twice.

You are pouring all your resources into a short term guy and in any event the idea that he is going to play entire year is a pipe dream.    And I am not talking injuries which are also fairly likely.   

Aaron Rodgers can hold a guy off because he is Aaron Rodgers.  Brett Favre same.   Alex Smith was playing amazing on a good team.   Joe Montana is Joe Montana he call hold off Steve Young for a bit.  

Even Jimmy Garropollo had a pretty good chance of playing an entire season.   He took you to a SB a few years ago.  So that made some sense.

But bringing in Glennon and Dalton to start for an entire year for mediocre teams to hold off a first round QB you traded up for is just stupid.  You know fans and media are going to demand he play.   If you don't know it you are a fool.   

First losing streak that happens was going to create crazy pressure.    Glennon got boo'd off stage.   If Dalton didn't get hurt it 100% would have happened to him too.

It was a stupid plan that was never going to happen.   Chris Collinsworth and Rich Eisen told Nagy to his face in offseason that it was never going to happen, no way, no how.  They have covered entire league for decades.   He wouldn't listen.

 

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3 hours ago, topwop1 said:

 

#FireNagy

That's it the players are turning on him now 🤣

 

 

 
Nagy at his 11:45 am presser today: "Well, that’s news to me. But at the same point in time, I’ll be able to talk to him and see what that’s all about. But Jaylon’s been doing great. Again, for what it is and where we’re at, I’ll be able to discuss it with him."
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