The BILLievers Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, CWood21 said: It's a microcosm for his inability to consistently hit an open WR. He's looked good so far, I don't think anyone would disagree. I'm just not ready to think that a 4 game stretch of him playing well is anything but an anomaly when he's been a poor QB for the past 4 years. If he continues to develop and maintain this, then we can discuss this again. Just keep moving those goal posts lol sounds good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 Just now, The BILLievers said: Just keep moving those goal posts lol sounds good. I mean, if you think 4 games > 28 games sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 11 hours ago, CWood21 said: I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong, are you? Up through this point, he's had a 4 game stretch doing something he's never been able to do going back to his college career at Wyoming: completing a high percentage of passes and not throwing interceptions. His INT% is 0.7%, which is nearly a quarter of his career up until this point. His completion percentage is above 60% for the time since his freshman year when he threw 4 passes. IF he can keep up these numbers, we can revisit this discussion. When will ya'll realize that individual stats are just as much a measure of what you have around you as much as it is a measure of your ability? The reason Josh Allen's numbers were poor at Wyoming and below average his first couple of years in the NFL is because he was carrying subpar offenses on his back. At Wyoming and in his rookie year at Buffalo he had no talent around him on offense. Last year the talent around him increased a little bit and unsurprisingly his numbers increased. What did I repeat time and time again during the off-season? Put some quality talent around Josh Allen (for the first time in his career) and watch his stats finally match his ability. If you could have looked beyond the box score in college and actually evaluated his talent you would know a season like this was coming. He's always been this good. He just finally has the players around him to show it on the stat sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenos Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 On 10/5/2020 at 6:13 AM, VanS said: For the first time in the last 4 years (2 at Wyoming and 2 at Buffalo) he's not surrounded by absolute trash on the offensive side of the ball. The players around him can actually play a little now. Its what has allowed the full spectrum of his talent and ability to show itself. He's been making throws like this his entire career. The only difference now is its more consistent because the talent around him are winning their matchups more consistently. I thought Josh Allen was a star last year. His numbers didn't reflect it because the talent around him was subpar. But if you watched him play you saw everything he's doing right now. And you knew that it was only time before the stat sheet started to reflect the talent he possesed. Yeah it’s just the talent around him. Not like he spent each offseason trying to improve his accuracy or mechanics/footwork 🤦♂️ 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, WizeGuy said: It's important to note that Allen never had great coaching. He's going to be the outlier here because he was never given a true chance to succeed with dedicated high quality coaching until he turned pro. Lots of QBs don't get good coaching in college. They don't all turn into MVP candidates in the NFL. Maybe its time to just admit you were wrong about his ability as a passer coming out of college. I see folks twisting themselves into a pretzel to try and explain how Josh Allen went from an "inaccurate" sub-60% college passer to now being an accurate MVP candidate QB who is completing >70% of his passes. Maybe its as simple as his teammates weren't that good before so we didn't get an accurate representation of his passing ability on the stat sheet but now he has a good supporting cast and it has allowed the box score to finally match the passing ability he always had. I've been preaching for months and before he was drafted that he was a lot better than the numbers suggested. All you had to do was watch him consistently the last few years and you would have seen something like this coming. At some point folks gotta stop focising so much on stats thinking they are an absolute reflection of a player's ability. The eye test will always be superior when judging a player's ability and potential. Edited October 9, 2020 by VanS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, VanS said: When will ya'll realize that individual stats are just as much a measure of what you have around you as much as it is a measure of your ability? The reason Josh Allen's numbers were poor at Wyoming and below average his first couple of years in the NFL is because he was carrying subpar offenses on his back. At Wyoming and in his rookie year at Buffalo he had no talent around him on offense. Last year the talent around him increased a little bit and unsurprisingly his numbers increased. What did I repeat time and time again during the off-season? Put some quality talent around Josh Allen (for the first time in his career) and watch his stats finally match his ability. If you could have looked beyond the box score in college and actually evaluated his talent you would know a season like this was coming. He's always been this good. He just finally has the players around him to show it on the stat sheet. And he was playing mediocre competition in MWC. He wasn't playing against future NFL players while at Wyoming on a consistent basis. You can claim he was playing with mediocre talent at Wyoming, but you also need to admit he was playing against mediocre defenses. You won't admit that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, CWood21 said: when he's been a poor QB for the past 4 years. Prove he has been a "poor QB" the past 4 years. In college when he didn't play his team was significantly worse. I think in his final season he missed a game or two due to injury and Wyoming lost to an FCS team in the interim. Then during his rookie year he goes to a Bills team that after the first 2 weeks following blow out losses to the Ravens and Chargers were being called by many the worst team in the league. He only leads them to one of the biggest upset wins in the last 30 years when he beat the Vikings on the road as 17-point underdogs in just his second start. When Allen was in the Bills lineup as a rookie they were respectable. While he was out with an elbow injury for a period that year they looked totally inept. Then last year with a slightly improved supporting cast he leads his team to the playoffs putting up respectable numbers. Nothing in Allen's history thus far shows he has been a "poor QB". Edited October 9, 2020 by VanS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 20 minutes ago, Xenos said: Yeah it’s just the talent around him. Not like he spent each offseason trying to improve his accuracy or mechanics/footwork 🤦♂️ Every player tries to improve their game each off-season. They don't all turn into MVP candidates overnight. I'm not saying he didn't improve. I'm simply saying he was starting from a far more advanced point as a passer than people were willing to admit because they focused too much on the numbers. I argued this with multiple posters all summer. I even outlined this exact situation happening (where Allen makes a Lamar Jackson-esque leap to MVP in one off-season). My argument was simple. Do you really think its possible for someone to go from a below average player with accuracy issues to NFL MVP in one off-season? Or was he actually a lot better than most people thought before and the stat sheet wasn't accurately capturing the full depth of his abilities? I choose the latter. Guys don't make these sort of monumental leaps in an off-season. The truth is they were already pretty good before that. Folks just weren't up on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, CWood21 said: And he was playing mediocre competition in MWC. He wasn't playing against future NFL players while at Wyoming on a consistent basis. You can claim he was playing with mediocre talent at Wyoming, but you also need to admit he was playing against mediocre defenses. You won't admit that. Actually I will freely admit that. Allen played weak competition in college against very few NFL players. However, that is beside the point. He didn't need to play against future pros for the weaknesses in his supporting cast to show itself. His Wyoming supporting could simply have been poor in comparison to other Mountain West teams. Similar to how Patrick Mahomes playing at Texas Tech meant he played with a worse supporting cast than QBs who played for Oklahoma or Texas in the same conference. I'm not arguing the competition he faced at Wyoming was elite. Just saying he was carrying a team that even by Mountain West standards was subpar. Edited October 9, 2020 by VanS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenos Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, VanS said: Every player tries to improve their game each off-season. They don't all turn into MVP candidates overnight. I'm not saying he didn't improve. I'm simply saying he was starting from a far more advanced point as a passer than people were willing to admit because they focused too much on the numbers. I argued this with multiple posters all summer. I even outlined this exact situation happening (where Allen makes a Lamar Jackson-esque leap to MVP in one off-season). My argument was simple. Do you really think its possible for someone to go from a below average player with accuracy issues to NFL MVP in one off-season? Or was he actually a lot better than most people thought before and the stat sheet wasn't accurately capturing the full depth of his abilities? I choose the latter. Guys don't make these sort of monumental leaps in an off-season. The truth is they were already pretty good before that. Folks just weren't up on it. Maybe wait the entire season before declaring Allen’s 4 games to be indicative of MVP. And I like the kid especially his work ethic and realization that he needed to work on his flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 1 hour ago, CWood21 said: I mean, if you think 4 games > 28 games sure... In his last 16 starts, Josh Allen has thrown 32 TDs to 4 INTs. And that's without including his production as a runner. I would say that's a pretty good sample size of elite play on his behalf. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Xenos said: Maybe wait the entire season before declaring Allen’s 4 games to be indicative of MVP. And I like the kid especially his work ethic and realization that he needed to work on his flaws. Just saying that for argument purposes. I wasn't declaring it as a fact. I actually said in the MVP discussion thread that I don't think he will win MVP this year. Not because his play will dip but because I think Buffalo's schedule is too hard for him to win the 12+ games needed to win the award. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 12 hours ago, CWood21 said: I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong, are you? Up through this point, he's had a 4 game stretch doing something he's never been able to do going back to his college career at Wyoming: completing a high percentage of passes and not throwing interceptions. His INT% is 0.7%, which is nearly a quarter of his career up until this point. His completion percentage is above 60% for the time since his freshman year when he threw 4 passes. IF he can keep up these numbers, we can revisit this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 54 minutes ago, Xenos said: Yeah it’s just the talent around him. Not like he spent each offseason trying to improve his accuracy or mechanics/footwork 🤦♂️ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 44 minutes ago, CWood21 said: And he was playing mediocre competition in MWC. He wasn't playing against future NFL players while at Wyoming on a consistent basis. You can claim he was playing with mediocre talent at Wyoming, but you also need to admit he was playing against mediocre defenses. You won't admit that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.