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Kyle Allen Your New Starter


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25 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Yeah, now that Dak is out we’re winning the division of course 👀 and then we’ll be stuck in mediocrityville like we’ve been for 20 years bc we can’t draft a franchise Qb in the top 5 - of course we did but he got hurt.

You realize that if Daniel Jones gets hurt or keeps playing poorly, there is a very conceivable possibility that the NFC East marquee would read:

COME SEE THE QB DUELS OF THE CENTURY BETWEEN
Andy Dalton!
Kyle Allen!
Jalen Hurts! and
Colt McCoy!

Edited by Woz
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On 10/10/2020 at 2:45 AM, turtle28 said:

I’m not saying it should totally be discounted but there are more important things to playing QB than the 40.

I would bet that Haskins now runs a 4.8 forty since he lost 15 pounds and added lean muscle last offseason.

Definitely but the league is trending towards more athletic quarterbacks and away from traditional pocket passers. Look at recent draft cycles, between 2017-2019 there were 11 QB's selected in the 1st round. The 5 that have played the best and look to be headed toward the most success are Patrick Mahomes, DeShaun Watson, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, and Kyler Murray. What are two things that all 5 of those guys have in common? They're all very athletic and have explosive arm talent. Which allows them to extend plays with their legs, get out of the pocket, and make big time throws down the field. 

Then you have 6 who range from average starter to bust in Mitchell Tribusky, Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Daniel Jones, and Dwayne Haskins. I'd say all of those guys are below average to average athletes with below average to average arms. Darnold has flashed at times but clearly isn't the guy that's going to elevate an offense or be a superstar quarterback. Mayfield is having a pretty good year but he also has a stacked offense around him and is another guy that likely isn't ever going to be able to elevate an offense around him or be a superstar quarterback. Rosen and Tribusky are both busts and the jury is still out on Jones and Haskins although it's not trending in the right direction. 

I think Haskins can be an average starter down the road and a similar player to someone like Jacoby Brissett. But I also think for him to be successful and reach his ceiling he's going to need a borderline elite offense around him. I don't think he has the arm talent or ability to make plays out of the structure of the offense to be a high end starter.

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7 hours ago, Woz said:

You realize that if Daniel Jones gets hurt or keeps playing poorly, there is a very conceivable possibility that the NFC East marquee would read:

COME SEE THE QB DUELS OF THE CENTURY BETWEEN
Andy Dalton!
Kyle Allen!
Jalen Hurts! and
Colt McCoy!

Did Wentz get hurt?

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10 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Definitely but the league is trending towards more athletic quarterbacks and away from traditional pocket passers. Look at recent draft cycles, between 2017-2019 there were 11 QB's selected in the 1st round. The 5 that have played the best and look to be headed toward the most success are Patrick Mahomes, DeShaun Watson, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, and Kyler Murray. What are two things that all 5 of those guys have in common? They're all very athletic and have explosive arm talent. Which allows them to extend plays with their legs, get out of the pocket, and make big time throws down the field. 

Then you have 6 who range from average starter to bust in Mitchell Tribusky, Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Daniel Jones, and Dwayne Haskins. I'd say all of those guys are below average to average athletes with below average to average arms. Darnold has flashed at times but clearly isn't the guy that's going to elevate an offense or be a superstar quarterback. Mayfield is having a pretty good year but he also has a stacked offense around him and is another guy that likely isn't ever going to be able to elevate an offense around him or be a superstar quarterback. Rosen and Tribusky are both busts and the jury is still out on Jones and Haskins although it's not trending in the right direction. 

I think Haskins can be an average starter down the road and a similar player to someone like Jacoby Brissett. But I also think for him to be successful and reach his ceiling he's going to need a borderline elite offense around him. I don't think he has the arm talent or ability to make plays out of the structure of the offense to be a high end starter.

Every great QB has elite players around him too. I’ve seen posts like this for years. What’s Montana & Young w/o Rice, Brent Jones, Roger Craig, Rathman and John Taylor?

Whats Terry Bradshaw w/o Franco, Swann & Stallworth?

Whats Theisman w/o the fun bunch, the Hogw and Riggins? What’s Doug Williams w/o the Hogs and the Posse?

I could keep going. Let’s go w/ this example, Jacoby Brissett looked like he was developing nicely when TY Hilton was 100% and Eric Ebron a few years ago. Then, they got hurt last year and the Colts went out and traded for Phillip Rivers.

The only two QB’s I’ve seen who’ve been able to stay elite despite not having elite talent around them is Dan Marino and Aaron Rodgers. It’s debatable between the two who’s the most talented QB to ever play in NFL history.

Edited by turtle28
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1 minute ago, turtle28 said:

Every great QB has elite players around him too.

I could keep going. Let’s go w/ this example, Jacoby Brissett looked like he was developing nicely when TY Hilton was 100% and Eric Ebron a few years ago. Then, they got hurt last year and the Colts went out and traded for Phillip Rivers.

That's certainly true. But again we've seen two common traits in the 5 QB's who were drafted in the 1st round recently that are or look like they will be elite players: athleticism/mobility and explosive arm talent. All 5 of those guys have the mobility to extend plays in the pocket, be effective running the ball if needed, and have the arm talent to push the ball down the field. Haskins is a below average athlete and has average arm talent at best. 

I think he can be an average starter in the right situation. But he's not going to be a guy that can take your offense to the next level and I don't think he really fits in Washington because you guys are lacking weapons across the board. 

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3 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

That's certainly true. But again we've seen two common traits in the 5 QB's who were drafted in the 1st round recently that are or look like they will be elite players: athleticism/mobility and explosive arm talent. All 5 of those guys have the mobility to extend plays in the pocket, be effective running the ball if needed, and have the arm talent to push the ball down the field. Haskins is a below average athlete and has average arm talent at best. 

I think he can be an average starter in the right situation. But he's not going to be a guy that can take your offense to the next level and I don't think he really fits in Washington because you guys are lacking weapons across the board. 

I’m not saying that Haskins will ever be a top 5 QB - I don’t think he will be - I will say he has a good arm and has the ability to be developed (KEY WORD) into a good QB who’s a top half of the league QB. Washington needs upgrades at LT, LG, TE and #2 WR and it’s slot WR who finished December last year is on at least short term IR with a toe injury.

And still Haskins threw was 71%, 314 yds a 90.3 rtg and led the team on two TD drives and what should’ve been two other scoring drives vs the great Ravens D. 

Me and @e16bball have compared Haskins’s abilities and athletic ability to Big Ben, Big Ben is arguably a top 5 QB at worst just outside of it. I know people have amnesia but Ben was very immature as a young QB. He had the motorcycle accident that messed his face up in 06. He had the issues/accusations in either Georgia or South Carolina too. Haskins doesn’t have that kind of immaturity. Haskins needs more direction and to mature in his practice habits and as a leader.
 

There’s something there to work with but he needs to be coached. If he doesn’t respond as the season goes on then, trade him next spring and draft Lawrence, Fields, Lance or Trask.

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4 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

I’m not saying that Haskins will ever be a top 5 QB - I don’t think he will be - I will say he has a good arm and has the ability to be developed (KEY WORD) into a good QB who’s a top half of the league QB. Washington needs upgrades at LT, LG, TE and #2 WR and it’s slot WR who finished December last year is on at least short term IR with a toe injury.

Me and @e16bball have compared Haskins’s abilities and athletic ability to Big Ben, Big Ben is arguably a top 5 QB at worst just outside of it. I know people have amnesia but Ben was very immature as a young QB. He had the motorcycle accident that messed his face up in 06. He had the issues/accusations in either Georgia or South Carolina too. Haskins doesn’t have that kind of immaturity. Haskins needs more direction and to mature in his practice habits and as a leader.

I agree that Haskins can be about an average level starter with a good offense around him. I just don't think that he's a guy you build your franchise around. 

Big Ben was a better athlete, more mobile, and had a way better arm than Haskins at the same stage. 

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32 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I agree that Haskins can be about an average level starter with a good offense around him. I just don't think that he's a guy you build your franchise around. 

Big Ben was a better athlete, more mobile, and had a way better arm than Haskins at the same stage. 

Debatable. Again, amnesia. Haskins is an avg athlete, not even last year when he was 20 pounds heavier. He’s just not an explosive athlete but he can elude a pass rush and has the capability to throw on the run just as Kyle Allen does.

Edited by turtle28
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According to Pro Football Reference Haskins ranks...

Depth of target on completions - 2020: 4.1 ypc (33rd) | 2019: 6.3 ypc (14th)

Depth of target / Attempts - 2020: 2.5 ypa (33rd) | 2019: 3.7 ypa (21st)

Bad throws - 2020: 35 (2nd) | 2019: 38 (33rd)

Bad throw % - 2020: 24.3% (2nd) | 2019: 19.4% (8th) 

Y/A - 2020: 6.4 ypa (27th) | 2019: 6.7 ypa (26th)

Y/C - 2020: 10.6 ypc (23rd) | 2019: 11.5 ypc (15th)

Edited by NYRaider
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20 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

As a 1st/2nd year player Big Ben averaged 8.9 Y/A and 13.7 Y/C. 

Dwayne Haskins is averaging 6.6 Y/A and 11.1 Y/C. 

Watch the plays at 2:26 and 2:43. Haskins can't make plays like that. 

Cant view it but, with all due respect, you don’t see all of Haskins’s plays. He ran a lot last year when things weren’t there and people were shocked at his athleticism bc they thought Haskins had zippy. 
 

The Steelers when Ben was young had Santonio Holmes, Heins Ward, Heath Miller, the Bus, Fast Willie Parker an a good OL. They were built before he was drafted.
 

You can’t compare the two prospects stats bc of what Ben had and Dwayne doesn’t as young players. Washington has one player - McLaurin - who would start for those Steelers teams.

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1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

According to Pro Football Reference Haskins ranks...

Depth of target on completions - 2020: 4.1 ypc (33rd) | 2019: 6.3 ypc (14th)

Depth of target / Attempts - 2020: 2.5 ypa (33rd) | 2019: 3.7 ypa (21st)

Bad throws - 2020: 35 (2nd) | 2019: 38 (33rd)

Bad throw % - 2020: 24.3% (2nd) | 2019: 19.4% (8th) 

Y/A - 2020: 6.4 ypa (27th) | 2019: 6.7 ypa (26th)

Y/C - 2020: 10.6 ypc (23rd) | 2019: 11.5 ypc (15th)

A lot of that is on him, a lot of it is the scheme and a lot of it is the lack of playmakers. Heck, we don’t even have Steve Sims in the slot bc he hurt his toe vs Arizona. He’s on IR and going into the season he was our 2nd best playmaker and still may be if healthy; it’s between he and Gibson who’s our 2nd best playmaker after Terry.

You can believe what you want but the scheme is an issue. Look at what Haskins was doing last Dec. Look and what not only him but what Allen/Alex did yesterday in this offense. Our offense only had 111 passing yards yesterday, Haskins had 314 last week vs a better Ravens D.

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3 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

The Steelers when Ben was young had Santonio Holmes, Heins Ward, Heath Miller, the Bus, Fast Willie Parker an a good OL. They were built before he was drafted.

You can’t compare the two prospects stats bc of what Ben had and Dwayne doesn’t as young players. Washington has one player - McLaurin - who would start for those Steelers teams.

The Steelers definitely had more talent but Big Ben was also one of the best young QB's we've ever seen in NFL history. 

They were 6-10 the year before he arrived and averaged 18.8 ppg. In his first two years he was 27-4 as a starter with an AFC championship game appearance and Super Bowl victory. And the Steelers offense averaged 23.5 ppg his rookie year and 26.0 his 2nd year in games that he played. 

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