GDT 10/11/20 Week 5: 3-1 Baltimore Ravens vs 1-2-1 Cincinnati Bengals

[Ray Reed]

15 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Given how creative he is at drawing up new running plays, theoretically it's possible. But I just don't think passing concepts are his strong suit.

His passing concepts were bad in SF and BUF too, apparently, according to those fans

[diamondbull424]

12 hours ago, Danand said:

Mosleys play recognition was far ahead of Queens as a rookie, and that will most likely be the case for 2-3 years.

That allowed Mosley to play faster, to slip through blockers and blow up screens and get to the sidelines or to zones in coverage.

I don't think there is any question, that Queen is the superioer athlete. Just faster, smooth and with better bend. The fundamentals and knowing what to do and see plays before they happen is where he will have to elevate his game.

I think every draft analysis on him still fits like a glove. We got exactly what we had anticipated. On his heels against a complex Andy Reid offense he will struggle till he learns the game. Against the Bengals where he is allowed to hunt, well, we get what we saw yesterday.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you hear, but are you trying to say that Mosley had a superior trigger to Queen in run support? That Queen is simply making more plays behind the LOS and all over the field because he’s more athletic?

I just want to make sure I understand you before I jump to conclusions and launch into a rebuttal.

[RavensDefense3]

13 hours ago, Danand said:

Mosleys play recognition was far ahead of Queens as a rookie, and that will most likely be the case for 2-3 years.

That allowed Mosley to play faster, to slip through blockers and blow up screens and get to the sidelines or to zones in coverage.

I don't think there is any question, that Queen is the superioer athlete. Just faster, smooth and with better bend. The fundamentals and knowing what to do and see plays before they happen is where he will have to elevate his game.

I think every draft analysis on him still fits like a glove. We got exactly what we had anticipated. On his heels against a complex Andy Reid offense he will struggle till he learns the game. Against the Bengals where he is allowed to hunt, well, we get what we saw yesterday.

my exact thoughts. queen is way behind mosley in terms of purely playing the position. he still looks confused sometimes. mosley's rookie season was one of his prime years and that was when he still had pretty good athleticism.

[diamondbull424]

11 hours ago, Danand said:

We are 4-1 after 5 weeks, and most of us (along with the team) feel we haven't played up to our potential.

We have been fortunate to only have 1 great opponent in the Chiefs, but unfortunately we got manhandled in that game and we never managed to play up to their ability, We are good enough to beat up on bad teams without playing well - that is a positive thing, but it is also concerning, that against these opponents we haven't been able to pass the ball as we want to/run the ball with consistency. 

How are you defining great team? Depends on your verbiage. I’d certainly include the Browns as a legit upper echelon squad. That front 7 has proven its for real. And the Browns offense has proven it can hang with the best of them. Baker has made that ridiculous comparison threat to Mitch Trubisky look as foolish as it was at the time.

In terms of AFC contenders, I’d put all three AFCN squads towards the top: Chiefs, Ravens, Bills, Browns, Steelers, Patriots, Raiders, Titans. In the NFL at large the Browns are a legit top 10 team. So unless by great you’re only including top 5 teams into consideration. Though I wouldn’t necessarily rule the Browns out of that either.

11 hours ago, Danand said:

I hope we go into the bye week with a win against the Eagles, and then manage to keep the bubble intact with no positive COVID tests, and then come out of the bye with better gameplans and potentially go "back to basics" and with a better receiver rotation. I really feel Duvernay is on his way to exceed Boykin in snaps on offense and we can work with him and Brown to create conflict on the back end of the secondary.

Agreed. His speed along with our ability to motion guys should be able to create more conflict than it has to this point. Duvernay also has pretty automatic hands. We’ll need that in the event that Andrews decides to go into his “Anti-clutch” phase where he decides to drop everything left and right.

12 hours ago, Danand said:

Boykin is a head scratcher, as he has the ability to get open and is a guy Lamar look towards when the play breaks down, but there is just a lack of play recognition from Boykin that keeps him from producing. I have wondered if he should move more into the slot and get seam and post routes and deep comebacks, just to try to get him open in other ways and against linebackers and safeties.

Boykin’s hands and route running aren’t particularly reliable enough to keep inside. He’s too lazy. Throwing to him in that spot would result in a sharp increase in interceptions thrown.

The problem with Boykin is simple. He’s just not built mentally tough enough to be the guy. Watching the Seattle game the announcer stated perfectly the difference between DK Metcalf, who is now an elite NFL receiver and a guy like Boykin. In clutch moments you’ve got guys who run their routes hoping to NOT get targeted and guys who run the route with full confidence. Metcalf is the latter, while Boykin is the former. Both have a similar frame and similar athleticism, yet one guy just dominates, while the other guy can’t even show to be an average WR. When that’s the case, it’s mentality limitations.. that’s not something a coach can particularly fix.

[Danand]

37 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you hear, but are you trying to say that Mosley had a superior trigger to Queen in run support? That Queen is simply making more plays behind the LOS and all over the field because he’s more athletic?

I just want to make sure I understand you before I jump to conclusions and launch into a rebuttal.

Better play recognition, fewer false steps, not running himself out of plays/getting out of position, getting to the right depth in zone. Besides the Chiefs game where he got manhandled, Queen has had issues with play recognition. Once he sees it, he gets there faster than Mosley

[Danand]

I think you are guessing to what the issue is with Boykin. We don't know if it is a mental thing. Sometimes players just need time, have the game slow down. He is/was a project. Its too early to give up. Especially because he still gets open. Consistency is key and I hope he finds it as well as chemistry with Lamar.

he has still only played 20 something games.

 

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, Danand said:

I think you are guessing to what the issue is with Boykin. We don't know if it is a mental thing. Sometimes players just need time, have the game slow down. He is/was a project. Its too early to give up. Especially because he still gets open. Consistency is key and I hope he finds it as well as chemistry with Lamar.

he has still only played 20 something games.

He’s played 20 something NFL games. But he's the same player he was in college. His routes are just as lazy as they were in college out of his breaks. He’s not more aggressive at the catch point. His foot quickness is not faster. Other guys have made noticeable improvements from his rookie class. Can Boykin still develop? Absolutely. But the guy that dominated in the preseason a year ago that made me think he could have Chase Claypool potential? That guy would’ve showed up by now in a game if that’s something he had within him.

Hollywood on a gimpy foot showed that he could drop some dominant performances. Boykin is older and just as (if not more) athletic, yet he has not shown anything special to this point. 20 games in and he can’t put up at least one 100 yds receiving game or multiple TD score game?

He is who he is at this point. Greatness doesn’t just awaken in a player overnight at this point in the process; outside of maybe steroids or some performance enhancing drugs... like adderal or something.

If there are examples of guys in the last decade who have gone 20+ games without either 100 yds or 2 TDs and gone on to become a good NFL WR I’d like to know who they are.

Only ones I can think of are Adam Thielen and Robert Woods. Woods was 21 when drafted and his “break out“ game was the 25th of his career as a 22 year old. Which is why I said Boykin doesn’t have the “age/development” angle going for him.

Adam Thielen on the other hand was an UDFA that was struggling to just remain on the team early on. He didn’t play a game with over 35% of the snaps until his 19th game. But even then he had 68 yds and 1 TD off of 32% of offensive snaps. Even if I researched only the number of passing snaps played before breaking out, I’m sure Boykin’s chances of seeing a good WR career trajectory are incredibly low... and are decreasing with each passing game.

You can’t just go and label guys “projects” without accounting for their draft age because it’s a huge part of defining how much potential they have to work with and when they should have theoretically activated it by.

Edited October 13, 2020 by diamondbull424

[AngusMcFife]

3 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

He’s played 20 something NFL games. But he's the same player he was in college. His routes are just as lazy as they were in college out of his breaks. He’s not more aggressive at the catch point. His foot quickness is not faster. Other guys have made noticeable improvements from his rookie class. Can Boykin still develop? Absolutely. But the guy that dominated in the preseason a year ago that made me think he could have Chase Claypool potential? That guy would’ve showed up by now in a game if that’s something he had within him.

Hollywood on a gimpy foot showed that he could drop some dominant performances. Boykin is older and just as (if not more) athletic, yet he has not shown anything special to this point. 20 games in and he can’t put up at least one 100 yds receiving game or multiple TD score game?

He is who he is at this point. Greatness doesn’t just awaken in a player overnight at this point in the process; outside of maybe steroids or some performance enhancing drugs... like adderal or something.

If there are examples of guys in the last decade who have gone 20+ games without either 100 yds or 2 TDs and gone on to become a good NFL WR I’d like to know who they are.

Only ones I can think of are Adam Thielen and Robert Woods. Woods was 21 when drafted and his “break out“ game was the 25th of his career as a 22 year old. Which is why I said Boykin doesn’t have the “age/development” angle going for him.

Adam Thielen on the other hand was an UDFA that was struggling to just remain on the team early on. He didn’t play a game with over 35% of the snaps until his 19th game. But even then he had 68 yds and 1 TD off of 32% of offensive snaps. Even if I researched only the number of passing snaps played before breaking out, I’m sure Boykin’s chances of seeing a good WR career trajectory are incredibly low... and are decreasing with each passing game.

You can’t just go and label guys “projects” without accounting for their draft age because it’s a huge part of defining how much potential they have to work with and when they should have theoretically activated it by.

That's a bit unfair, as Boykin has only ever played in the most run-heavy scheme in the NFL relative to the rest of the league in recent memory. Not only that but most passes go to the TEs.  

I've seen plenty of film where Boykin is getting open and Lamar is not looking his way. Maybe he would have had a breakout game on a team with a different QB who throws the ball more. 

I don't expect "greatness" but he could be perfectly functional #2/3 WR. 

He's an outside WR and Lamar isn't good throwing to the outside. Kinda tough to evaluate his progress. 

[Danand]

I don't know the stats of a DeVante Parker or Mike Gesicki for example, but they took some time to break out. Again, if Boykin is open but don't get the ball - then it is difficult to produce.

It's not that I disagree that I am somewhat disappointed in him/his ability to produce, but as long as we see sunday after sunday that he gets open on certain plays but just never get the ball, and on top of that is the best blocking WR we have and a core special teamer, then it is too early to write him off.

Would I want to see Duvernay get more shots than Boykin - yes, as I think he has shown he deserves more chances, but that is not because I have given up on Boykin. I just want to see others get a chance as well.

[DreamKid]

Tweet is about Bowser who obviously did a good job, but check out Queen here-

Less hesitant compared to previous weeks. No false steps. Keeps clean warding off a would be blocker while quickly flowing to the ball. He's starting to flash what we saw on tape at LSU. Keep it up PQ.

 

[Danand]

Depending on the coach, this would be either a positive or negative play. Some will want him to work through his blocker to prevent the blocker from getting into his side. If the runningback cut up behind the blocker, Queen would have run himself out of the play.

Another way to see it is that he knows he has help inside and has to be able to get to the edge if the RB run towards the sideline and trying to turn the corner instead of cutting up into Bowser and Elliot.

We would have to know his assignment/Wink's preference to know for sure.

[diamondbull424]

On 10/13/2020 at 3:35 AM, Danand said:

I don't know the stats of a DeVante Parker or Mike Gesicki for example, but they took some time to break out. Again, if Boykin is open but don't get the ball - then it is difficult to produce.

It's not that I disagree that I am somewhat disappointed in him/his ability to produce, but as long as we see sunday after sunday that he gets open on certain plays but just never get the ball, and on top of that is the best blocking WR we have and a core special teamer, then it is too early to write him off.

Would I want to see Duvernay get more shots than Boykin - yes, as I think he has shown he deserves more chances, but that is not because I have given up on Boykin. I just want to see others get a chance as well.

Gesicki is a TE, that’s a position that’s notorious for its learning curve. Parker had such a game in his first season.

Its not about getting open on certain plays. It’s his inconsistency with finishing plays. In the NFL you don’t pass to the open WR (unless they’re schemed open). Typically QBs are passing off anticipation. You’re passing to a spot and depending on the guy being there and better yet shielding the defender from not interfering with said pass.

Boykin getting open is irrelevant if he can’t consistently be relied upon to get his head around quickly and make a play on the ball. Jackson is very risk adverse, he’s not going to throw to Boykin if he’s not going to be boxing out his defender in 1v1 scenarios or getting out of his breaks with precision for back shoulder throws and out routes. Too often passes to Boykin along the boundary have been near interceptions. We’re honestly lucky for Boykin to have received his first target to turn interception for his tenure with Jackson this past game. Boykin does seem a little more physical at the catch point, but besides that I’ve seen little improvements in his route releases.

Boykin’s issue for a WR is the same issue Anthony Averrett had as a corner, inability to get their head around. It doesn’t matter how good your coverage is when you’re not making a play on the ball consistently... as the QB will trust his guy to do something in 1v1. The opposite is true with Boykin, it doesn’t matter how good your route is when you can’t get your head turned around. Now sure, Averett improved in his third NFL season to be a solid player, but had he been a stud corner, it would’ve showed earlier on. Boykin is in the same mold. If we’re only going to pass the ball 25 times a game we don’t need a WR who is simply the Anthony Averett of WRs, we need someone who can at least be a Brandon Carr (when he arrived as a free agent) type. Someone that’s an impact player. What good is passing the ball 4 times to Boykin if he’s going to complete 2 times for 25 yards? In this offense we need a legit threat that defenses have to account for that might get 4 targets for 25 yards, but also might take those 4 targets and go 4/4 for 100 yards in any given game. He doesn’t need to do it EVERY game, he just needs to be the kind of player that defenses have to respect that he COULD do it in any given  game.

 

In terms of Parker, he had such a game in his rookie season to show his potential was there, he just wasn’t consistent. Though for him Tbf he was playing with “Offensive Guru” Adam Gase, the same with Gesicki and Tannehill. All three improved bounds with him gone. Even if Roman is so pathetic in the same manner and he’s the issue for Boykin, there’s little hope that he’s actually gone after this season, so we at least need to find players that can work better with what he likes to do.

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, Danand said:

Depending on the coach, this would be either a positive or negative play. Some will want him to work through his blocker to prevent the blocker from getting into his side. If the runningback cut up behind the blocker, Queen would have run himself out of the play.

Another way to see it is that he knows he has help inside and has to be able to get to the edge if the RB run towards the sideline and trying to turn the corner instead of cutting up into Bowser and Elliot.

We would have to know his assignment/Wink's preference to know for sure.

I’ve... never heard of a 34 ILB assignment where this is the case. You’re supposed to keep outside contain to flush things back to the other ILB, while not over pursuing. If the WR cuts it back he’s got Humphrey and Harrison to deal with as that’s their responsibility for the play.

The only way this play would have been negative would have been if Queen too aggressively chased the outside lane and allowed the cutback inside, which he showed great patience in waiting and forcing the runner towards HIS outside contain (Boswer).

This is exactly the realization he had after the Kansas City game that he mentioned in his WFT (post game?) interview. That game he realized he wasn’t listening to what the coaches were telling him to do. Since then he’s been doing so and the results have been him playing at a LBing level beyond anything CJ Mosley has ever conjured... and yes, I’m considering rookie Mosley... and this is considering the fact that Queen isn’t nearly as good as Mosley in pass coverage recognition. However if he were, he’d be playing on a peak Luke Kuechly type level.

I won’t say Queen is better than rookie Mosley because a small sample size of two elite games (or 5 games in general) is irrelevant when compared to an entire season of production/consistency. But if he continues his current play, he will likely win DROY (or be just edged out by Chase Young) and will be on a higher level than where Mosley (who had the benefit of a full NFL offseason and 4 preseason games) ended up displaying. But one thing I will confidently say is that at no point in Mosley’s rookie season was he on Queen’s current level.

Arguably Mosley’s best game as a rookie was Mosley vs the Saints where he went for 9 solos, 0 asts, 3 TFL, and 1 sack. Great game. This compares favorably with Queen’s WFT game where he had 9 solos, 3 asts, 3 TFL, 0 sacks. The big difference coming with the fact that Mosley played on 71 snaps vs 57 snaps for Queen.

But in Mosley’s rookie season he was not operating at the same level and especially not play creation level as Queen. In his entire rookie season, Mosley had 3 created turnovers; two interceptions and 1 FF/FR. This is what Mosley was providing in his rookie season (kudos for Flacco and Smith for their DPI connection).

I know it’s not too many plays of Mosley producing highlight plays featured, but that’s what we get.

He’s very technically sound, but even then his athletic limitations led to multiple plays where he’s getting solo tackles by pushing guys out of bounds 8-10 yards down the field because he didn’t have the speed to disrupt the angle sooner. There’s nothing wrong with that and it happens to every player, but it happened to him far more often than it did the truly elite LBs (of his generation) in Kuechly and Bobby Wagner.

With Mosley there was always a sense of “Peak Ray Lewis stops that same 5-7 yard gain for a 1 yard loss.” Whereas watching Queen the last couple weeks has been the closest thing I’ve seen in a Ravens uniform to peak Ray Lewis. Plays are being stopped right about where I would think. Maybe not a 1 yard loss, but only a 1 yard gain off a jet sweep. No doubt in my mind, Mosley somehow allows that play to get at least 5 yards from a cutback crease that enveloped because he didn’t have the speed/agility to meet the angle. Whereas regardless of Boswer or Elliot’s ability to stop that play, Queen would’ve stopped it as well. A player of Mosley’s limitations would’ve been 1-2 steps behind.

[M.10.E]

Think we need to slow the Patty Queen hype train down just a bit. He was just benched two games ago because he was absolute garbage in coverage. Yes, he has a lot of potential and is making some nice plays but lets relax a bit. Also CJ Mosely has become quite underrated here.

[diamondbull424]

On 10/13/2020 at 2:07 AM, AngusMcFife said:

That's a bit unfair, as Boykin has only ever played in the most run-heavy scheme in the NFL relative to the rest of the league in recent memory. Not only that but most passes go to the TEs.  

I've seen plenty of film where Boykin is getting open and Lamar is not looking his way. Maybe he would have had a breakout game on a team with a different QB who throws the ball more. 

I don't expect "greatness" but he could be perfectly functional #2/3 WR. 

He's an outside WR and Lamar isn't good throwing to the outside. Kinda tough to evaluate his progress. 

Maybe it is unfair. But that’s also why I said this:

On 10/12/2020 at 10:36 PM, diamondbull424 said:

Even if I researched only the number of passing snaps played before breaking out, I’m sure Boykin’s chances of seeing a good WR career trajectory are incredibly low... and are decreasing with each passing game.

Also the argument of “what if he had a different QB” is irrelevant unless you think we’re going to be replacing Lamar Jackson anytime soon. Now sure could Lamar Jackson do a better job of targeting his WRs? Absolutely. But he’s had no trouble spreading the targets around in games. So I have no doubt that if Lamar actually trusted Boykin, he would throw it to him. He has no issues with slinging it to Hollywood... and I doubt it’s just because they listen to the same music. It’s because in the event of a bad toss, Hollywood is aware enough to bat it down or make a spectacular play to bail Lamar out, same with Andrews (outside of those games where he seems to be in meltdown mode like against the Chiefs, Titans, and Bills), there’s even some of that with Boyle and Snead to a lesser degree, which is why Lamar has consistently seemed to be comfortable targeting those guys.

Boykin doesn’t attack the ball at its highest point, he waits for it to come into his frame and allows for defenders to have a shot at it too often. Which presents far more risk when throwing in his direction, which makes Lamar less and less likely to even look his way.

Combine that with the fact that Boykin’s route release nor his route precision is consistently good enough to allow him great separation and sure he may have a couple plays where he’s streaking wide open of the 25 pass plays in the game, but you can never predict WHEN it will happen, so when you’ve got only 2-4 second to take snapshots of the entire field and get rid of the ball and many times throw off anticipation (and not whose open), you aren’t waiting for Boykin to get open at 3-4 seconds because now all the other options have dried up and you risk taking a sack. So better to target Brown/Andrews in single coverage than risk waiting for Boykin, only for nothing to come of it because he’s not open and because you can’t anticipate a throw to him in the event that if he’s well covered he will be able to make a play on the ball whether to catch it or bat it down.

In another offense and with maybe Jameis Winston, Sam Darnold, or Baker Mayfield as his QB perhaps Boykin could thrive statistically. Those are all examples of QBs that have shown to not be particularly risk adverse to this stage in their career. They would be willing to target Boykin no matter what. But that’s not Jackson.

So I’m relying on more than just a breakout game to classify Boykin’s lack of production/potential, but rather his skillset when paired with our QB. It’s just that most good WRs display game breaking skills far earlier, even if they struggle to maintain it on anything more than a game or two in a season. Boykin simply hasn’t shown it with any consistency within just a single game, his inconsistency has him only delivering a few good plays a game. Which considering his physical tools, is highly concerning. Enough players have a fraction of his physical ability, yet find ways to deliver more consistency from route to route than Boykin.

He seems like a hard worker and he seems passionate. So the only thing left is to assume he just doesn’t have the innate football instincts. Could he work hard and eventually become an 800 yd receiver in another offense, sure. But him becoming that guy within our offense is incredibly doubtful IMO. Thus I’d rather move on and see if Duvernay or Proche can be that guy.