Quarterback of the Future

[KhanYouDigIt]

He’s not wrong. 

[.Buzz]

I give up on being able to evaluate QBs tbh. I hated Herbert last year. What he was doing at Oregon wasn't close to what he's shown already in year 1 in LA. He had accuracy issues, you didn't see this big play ability he's shown. There was no indications watching Oregon this is what we'd see from him. I remember our entire fan base freaking out about the idea of Herbert falling to us and wanting nothing to do with him. Just like Josh Allen for the Bills, definitely didn't see Mahomes doing this. He was fun at TTU but yeah, never thought anything close to this was possible. 

Ultimately as I said in the other thread, I think there's 3-4 legit franchise potential guys on the surface. I think it's close to a lock barring a fall off from Fields he'll be our guy at #2 as I don't think we win two games with only six left but who knows. We just have to make sure we get a good QB coach/OC to develop him and build an offense around his strengths.

My issues that I've had watching him is he is prone to holding onto the ball way too long. That's not going to cut it. I've also seen that once in a while he tends to stare his guy down. Neither of which seriously concern me as far as the long term outlook on him with continued coaching.

[pwny]

On 11/27/2020 at 10:38 AM, .Buzz said:

I give up on being able to evaluate QBs tbh. I hated Herbert last year. What he was doing at Oregon wasn't close to what he's shown already in year 1 in LA. He had accuracy issues, you didn't see this big play ability he's shown. There was no indications watching Oregon this is what we'd see from him. I remember our entire fan base freaking out about the idea of Herbert falling to us and wanting nothing to do with him. Just like Josh Allen for the Bills, definitely didn't see Mahomes doing this. He was fun at TTU but yeah, never thought anything close to this was possible. 

Ultimately as I said in the other thread, I think there's 3-4 legit franchise potential guys on the surface. I think it's close to a lock barring a fall off from Fields he'll be our guy at #2 as I don't think we win two games with only six left but who knows. We just have to make sure we get a good QB coach/OC to develop him and build an offense around his strengths.

My issues that I've had watching him is he is prone to holding onto the ball way too long. That's not going to cut it. I've also seen that once in a while he tends to stare his guy down. Neither of which seriously concern me as far as the long term outlook on him with continued coaching.

Honestly this is part of why I’m leaning so heavily into analytics (and I don’t mean PFF’s trash ratings). I have no idea what I’m doing, and on top of that there‘s just so much that goes on at the NFL level with developing guys, and we’re at a point that certain teams are 20-30 years ahead in what they’re doing compared to teams like the Jags over the last 10 years that have been running offenses out of the early-mid 90’s.

 

The analytics were high on Allen’s ability to project at the next level. But it also took him developing under a team that’s really willing to mold to what he’s good at and also able to bring in talented players around him that fit what he does best. Same thing with Mahomes; analytics projected him as a superstar, and Andy Reid has done a fantastic job putting the correct pieces around him and building an offensive scheme that that fits all of his strengths and doesn’t ask him to do a single thing that he’s not great at. 

[.Buzz]

1 hour ago, pwny said:

Honestly this is part of why I’m leaning so heavily into analytics (and I don’t mean PFF’s trash ratings). I have no idea what I’m doing, and on top of that there‘s just so much that goes on at the NFL level with developing guys, and we’re at a point that certain teams are 20-30 years ahead in what they’re doing compared to teams like the Jags over the last 10 years that have been running offenses out of the early-mid 90’s.

 

The analytics were high on Allen’s ability to project at the next level. But it also took him developing under a team that’s really willing to mold to what he’s good at and also able to bring in talented players around him that fit what he does best. Same thing with Mahomes; analytics projected him as a superstar, and Andy Reid has done a fantastic job putting the correct pieces around him and building an offensive scheme that that fits all of his strengths and doesn’t ask him to do a single thing that he’s not great at. 

That's why I'm team Bienimy/Brady or another high end OC who has shown adapt to the young QB he has (even though I'm not a huge Daboll guy, he intrigues me with his work with Josh Allen). Not really sure how I feel about Arthur Smith but there's no doubt Tannehill has been playing some elite football with him at OC.

If we don't go that route and go ST/defense, it's fine (Saleh is near the top for me), BUT a guy like Saleh better land McDaniel or Lafleur to head the offense who are seen as bright up and coming minds to develop said QB.

Just feel like coaching for a young QB that needs some things worked on/tailored too him is so vital. We haven't exactly done that prior to this year (felt like Gruden was a pretty damn good hire for Minshew).

[LinderFournette]

49 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

That's why I'm team Bienimy/Brady or another high end OC who has shown adapt to the young QB he has (even though I'm not a huge Daboll guy, he intrigues me with his work with Josh Allen). Not really sure how I feel about Arthur Smith but there's no doubt Tannehill has been playing some elite football with him at OC.

If we don't go that route and go ST/defense, it's fine (Saleh is near the top for me), BUT a guy like Saleh better land McDaniel or Lafleur to head the offense who are seen as bright up and coming minds to develop said QB.

Just feel like coaching for a young QB that needs some things worked on/tailored too him is so vital. We haven't exactly done that prior to this year (felt like Gruden was a pretty damn good hire for Minshew).

What about greg Roman(tailored offenses to caps and lamars skill set

[pwny]

17 minutes ago, LinderFournette said:

What about greg Roman(tailored offenses to caps and lamars skill set

Those two have a pretty similar skill set, and Roman has largely not built anything effective outside of using hyper mobile QBs. If that’s what we were drafting, then by all means yeah. But I don’t think any of the guys we’re taking really fit what Lamar or Kap do. 

[.Buzz]

5 minutes ago, pwny said:

Those two have a pretty similar skill set, and Roman has largely not built anything effective outside of using hyper mobile QBs. If that’s what we were drafting, then by all means yeah. But I don’t think any of the guys we’re taking really fit what Lamar or Kap do. 

This.

Also, Roman has shown to get figured out after the first year or two where he lands. Not sure of his prospects as a HC/how he's viewed in that regard, but he's not with the others in my eyes of a pure offensive playcaller/developing a young QB for me personally. I will say his work with BAL and Lamar last year was impressive though.

[Tugboat]

7 hours ago, .Buzz said:

This.

Also, Roman has shown to get figured out after the first year or two where he lands. Not sure of his prospects as a HC/how he's viewed in that regard, but he's not with the others in my eyes of a pure offensive playcaller/developing a young QB for me personally. I will say his work with BAL and Lamar last year was impressive though.

Honestly, i think this kinda touches on the whole problem with this idea of hiring a "Head Coach", just to work with/develop a young QB with rough edges.  There are guys who are good in that role, and have had success as OCs with the right sort of QB and talent fit...but that doesn't inherently make them a quality HC.

I feel like at this point, the role of "Head Coach" has started to almost completely diverge from the the details of running an offense/defense snap to snap as a Coordinator, and molding specific players.  A Good HC at this point, needs to be someone who is a strong "manager" of his staff and players, more than any credentials they have working with X player or QB as a Coordinator.

But more than that...a good HC is someone who can reliably bring in strong Coordinators through their "network" to execute what they need done on each side of the ball.  Especially considering how quickly quality OC/DCs tend to get scooped up and move along to bigger roles elsewhere these days.  You need to be able to bring in not just one quality OC to work with a young QB, but have the connections to bring in another one after that, if it starts to really work out and that first one gets snatched away after a couple years.  And somehow manage to keep some continuity through that.

 

It legitimately feels like finding good Coordinators is as important as the HC at this point, but in a far more transient job posting.  Especially when it comes to molding a young QB, and executing an offense around them that makes sense and plays to their strengths to help them develop.

Just seems like there are a lot of solid Coordinators these days, who are being promoted out of their depth...and faltering.  A lot them just seem like they're better at managing the details and snap by snap of one side of the ball, excellently...but get sorta lost when asked to take on everything, which in turn...takes them away from their own strong suit and comfort zone.

 

Roman just really feels like an illustration of that.  Where he's a solid coordinator, for a certain particular type of QB and offensive design.  Which is great.  But that doesn't mean he's going to be a good HC.  And it doesn't mean he's going to be a good OC for just any ol' QB and style of offense.  He's a specialist in what he does.  A lot of good solid coordinators are like that, and seem to fall upon disfavour, when they're plugged into the wrong situation with a bad HC or the wrong type of talent to execute what they're good at.  So you have to match things up to really find something that clicks.

[.Buzz]

 

[LinderFournette]

i think if it came down to trading up to get lawrence or staying put for fields im thinking trading up for lawrence but of course it depends on what its gonna take.   i would think pick 2, rams 1st and the vikings 2nd should be enough. 

 

[Tugboat]

10 hours ago, LinderFournette said:

i think if it came down to trading up to get lawrence or staying put for fields im thinking trading up for lawrence but of course it depends on what its gonna take.   i would think pick 2, rams 1st and the vikings 2nd should be enough. 

 

You can't trade up for Lawrence.  Whatever team lands as the worst in the entire league...is going to take him.  Period.

 

 

The more relevant question, is taking Fields at #2 if that's the consensus...vs trying the risky play of trading back for someone else, or just taking that someone else at #2 if that's where we land.

[KhanYouDigIt]

Hypothetical here:

 

Would you trade the #2 pick for Dak and give him the money he’s looking for?

 

[.Buzz]

15 minutes ago, KhanYouDigIt said:

Hypothetical here:

 

Would you trade the #2 pick for Dak and give him the money he’s looking for?

 

It's tough, because Dak would easily be our best QB in franchise history immediately...

I'd say no. I think this class at the top has a few QBs who have a chance to be "special", while being on a cheap deal for the next 4-5 years. More risk of course, but Dak carries some with that injury too.

[LinderFournette]

30 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

It's tough, because Dak would easily be our best QB in franchise history immediately...

I'd say no. I think this class at the top has a few QBs who have a chance to be "special", while being on a cheap deal for the next 4-5 years. More risk of course, but Dak carries some with that injury too.

i dont think dak for 2 is even remotely a fair deal.    more like dak + cowboys 1st for 2 and that is even a stretch.  

1) ur assuming that daak will be old dak. 

2) ur having to pay dak 30+ for X years.  

[pwny]

37 minutes ago, KhanYouDigIt said:

Hypothetical here:

 

Would you trade the #2 pick for Dak and give him the money he’s looking for?

 

Nah. Ultimately, if your GM can’t draft a QB and your staff can’t develop a QB, they shouldn’t be the GM and coaching staff. I’d rather my staff live and die by the measure of a good staff, particularly when this class looks like one of the better ones we’ve seen. I really don’t want another situation where a bad staff is kept around because of stupid reasons, and a free agent QB holding a bad roster from ever showing they’re terrible is at the top of those things.

Plus the rookie QB contract is the greatest equalizer in sports.

If you’re convinced that this QB class is not what it’d cracked up to be, or you’re convinced that the staff is incapable of drafting the correct QB of those available at #2, then yeah it’s an option I’d pursue. But if you think the incoming staff can build through the draft and that one of Fields/, make them prove it with what should be a relatively easy means to find a guy that should be a franchise guy, whether you think that guy is Fields or Wilson.