Official 2021 QB Thread

[Forge]

10 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

So, is there a thread where people actually critique Lawrence or is that off limits here?

I saw a thread asking if he had already peaked, so I figured we were all out on him to be honest. I figured I'd look into the guys that still have a shot at being something at the next level. 

[MSURacerDT55]

17 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Zach Wilson better than Trevor Lawrence?

 

Ok who here had Zach Wilson as the potential #2 pick in the draft coming off his SOPH season at BYU?  Sure Joe Burrow made a similar jump but he had a massive change in coordinators and scheme along with a great collection of talent playing a super difficult schedule. 

 

BYU had the 67th hardest schedule in the nation this past season, Mac Jones who plenty rip on played the 2nd hardest schedule and Justin Fields played the hardest schedule.  

 

Zach Wilson granted had a fine OL, fine RBs, multiple good TEs and multiple receivers who were sound along with a good defense.  But the level of competition difference between his SOPH and JR season is pretty nuts.  When the best team you played all year is Costal Carolina in a loss that is not that great of a season.  Sure they played UCF but none of the hyped up DBs for UCF played that game I believe.  The year previous he played Washington, Utah, Tennessee and USC all in the same season and went 2-2 against them.  Good but clearly did not look great and did miss multiple games because of injury.  

100% in lock step with you, this guy has boom or bust written all over him. I'd be curious to see if a guy from Draper,UT who dominated the likes of North Alabama and Texas State can turn around a franchise like New York where they are going to want to run you out of town the first interception.

I'm definitely not saying he wouldn't be good but it will be interesting see how he deals with adversity, can he take constant hits and still be accurate, can he bring a team back when they are down, will he get frustrated when a receiver drops passes, get frustrated when the OL isn't holding up, things he didn't have to deal with at BYU.

[.Buzz]

42 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

100% in lock step with you, this guy has boom or bust written all over him. I'd be curious to see if a guy from Draper,UT who dominated the likes of North Alabama and Texas State can turn around a franchise like New York where they are going to want to run you out of town the first interception.

I'm definitely not saying he wouldn't be good but it will be interesting see how he deals with adversity, can he take constant hits and still be accurate, can he bring a team back when they are down, will he get frustrated when a receiver drops passes, get frustrated when the OL isn't holding up, things he didn't have to deal with at BYU.

It is quite funny how this whole big push for Wilson here late doesn't talk about any of this.

I was even a Zach Wilson truther early in the season, but it's getting kinda ridiculous. 

[JiffyJag]

Wilson also needs to learn how to better avoid contact. Given that he already has injury problems in his past, he needs to stop trying to hurdle defenders and/or lowering his shoulder rather than sliding. Not going to fly at the next level. 

[BrownLeader]

21 hours ago, iknowcool said:

Doesn't make it any less odd though.  It's like me saying, "so is nobody going to give a dime to the homeless?", meanwhile I've never given any money to a homeless person (as an example).  

Lawrence obviously isn't flawless as a player.  Nobody is, even at their peak.  I'm sure if someone wanted to (and they do), Tom Brady could be critiqued.  But at that point it just becomes nitpicking.  And I think that is why you won't see people criticize Lawrence a lot, because as a QB prospect, he checks basically every box.  But that is why I asked you.  What should people be criticizing about Lawrence, and is it anything that would/should make Lawrence vs Wilson/Fields a debate?  

LIS not saying there aren't critiques to be made.  I'm sure there are.  But it would feel like nitpicking to me.  In my opinion I don't think you can reasonably expect a QB prospect to be that much better than what Lawrence is, and that is why you won't see a lot of people pointing out whatever minor flaws he has.  Same with Luck.  He had flaws, but at the end of the day, he was as good of a QB prospect as you can reasonably expect, and so it just wasn't worth it looking at his weaknesses when he was about as safe of a bet as you can get.  Same with a lot of elite, top-tier prospects.

I don't think Lawrence is really in that sphere. I'd say recent guys with the fewest on field weaknesses coming out would be Luck, Kyler Murray and Burrow. From the standpoint of being crowned since high school and living up to expectations while maintaining maturity/composure..I think Lawrence is special. But his on field play hasn't been consistently sparkling.

17 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Zach Wilson better than Trevor Lawrence?

 

Ok who here had Zach Wilson as the potential #2 pick in the draft coming off his SOPH season at BYU?  Sure Joe Burrow made a similar jump but he had a massive change in coordinators and scheme along with a great collection of talent playing a super difficult schedule. 

 

BYU had the 67th hardest schedule in the nation this past season, Mac Jones who plenty rip on played the 2nd hardest schedule and Justin Fields played the hardest schedule.  

 

Zach Wilson granted had a fine OL, fine RBs, multiple good TEs and multiple receivers who were sound along with a good defense.  But the level of competition difference between his SOPH and JR season is pretty nuts.  When the best team you played all year is Costal Carolina in a loss that is not that great of a season.  Sure they played UCF but none of the hyped up DBs for UCF played that game I believe.  The year previous he played Washington, Utah, Tennessee and USC all in the same season and went 2-2 against them.  Good but clearly did not look great and did miss multiple games because of injury.  

Sure maybe he put it all together this year with an improved team but there are more than a few asterisks next to this season's performance.  

Trevor Lawrence has been good for so long, it is kind of like Deshaun Watson coming out of Clemson.  He was good for so long and had such high expectations, his final year people kind of got bored with him and a guy like Trubisky passed him up in the draft.  Same with Trevor, people are getting bored of him and want to just go for the new fresh QB that they are not as familiar with.

 

Granted Zach Wilson is very good but might be getting a little too much hype, especially considering who he played and did all of this against this past season.  Sure Trey Lance did not play a great competition level either but Trey Lance also did not play with as talented of a group as BYU and is much more of a project QB not expected to be great right away.

It doesn't matter who had him where back when. Watson was really good at Clemson but there were clear inconsistencies. His success as a pro doesn't confirm he was a spectacular prospect that got nitpicked.

21 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

100% in lock step with you, this guy has boom or bust written all over him. I'd be curious to see if a guy from Draper,UT who dominated the likes of North Alabama and Texas State can turn around a franchise like New York where they are going to want to run you out of town the first interception.

I'm definitely not saying he wouldn't be good but it will be interesting see how he deals with adversity, can he take constant hits and still be accurate, can he bring a team back when they are down, will he get frustrated when a receiver drops passes, get frustrated when the OL isn't holding up, things he didn't have to deal with at BYU.

One or both, can't remember exactly right now, of his early games vs Utah is a good example of him dealing with a lot of adversity on the field.

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

100% in lock step with you, this guy has boom or bust written all over him. I'd be curious to see if a guy from Draper,UT who dominated the likes of North Alabama and Texas State can turn around a franchise like New York where they are going to want to run you out of town the first interception.

I'm definitely not saying he wouldn't be good but it will be interesting see how he deals with adversity, can he take constant hits and still be accurate, can he bring a team back when they are down, will he get frustrated when a receiver drops passes, get frustrated when the OL isn't holding up, things he didn't have to deal with at BYU.

Did you watch the Washington game last year? He was far from perfect, but he was quite impressive, especially for a guy who has made some major strides since that game. His receiver dropped a number of passes in that game. And he dealt with a lot of pressure. He's the real deal. The idea that he didn't have to deal with adversity at BYU is farfetched. 

19 hours ago, Ozzy said:

The year previous he played Washington, Utah, Tennessee and USC all in the same season and went 2-2 against them.  Good but clearly did not look great and did miss multiple games because of injury.

Going 2-2 with BYU against four P5 teams that went a combined 35-18 (and each had winning records) is definitely not a knock. 

52 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

It is quite funny how this whole big push for Wilson here late doesn't talk about any of this.

I was even a Zach Wilson truther early in the season, but it's getting kinda ridiculous. 

Because it isn't important, just like Lawrence being surrounded by great talent isn't important. Both guys dealt with plenty of adversity and showed their talent. Wilson is a stud.

[.Buzz]

3 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Because it isn't important, just like Lawrence being surrounded by great talent isn't important. Both guys dealt with plenty of adversity and showed their talent. Wilson is a stud.

No one is saying he's not a great prospect, but level of competition and some of those other things are definitely worthy discussion points/questions.

[jrry32]

9 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

No one where is saying he's not a great prospect, but level of competition and some of those other things are definitely worthy discussion points/questions.

I'm not concerned.

[.Buzz]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

I'm not concerned.

Truthfully I'm not either.

Just saying all this talk the past month or two none of that, along with his injury history, gets talked about. Just odd, imo. Usually this is overthinking it season as we're seeing with Lawrence. Hasn't happened with Wilson...at least yet.

[jrry32]

14 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Truthfully I'm not either.

Just saying all this talk the past month or two none of that, along with his injury history, gets talked about. Just odd, imo. Usually this is overthinking it season as we're seeing with Lawrence. Hasn't happened with Wilson...at least yet.

Because they always look to create drama surrounding the #1 pick. Wilson is being hyped as a challenger to Lawrence to create that drama.

[brownie man]

Just watched Zach Wilson for the first time and Trey Lance for the first time 

not bad prospects 

but...

I saw nothing at all to have me put them above Fields.

Is it just that people want be different?

There’s no way they actually believe he’s a better prospect than Fields. There’s no way. Can someone explain it to me. 
 

What do they see exactly?

[LinebackerGod]

27 minutes ago, brownie man said:

Just watched Zach Wilson for the first time and Trey Lance for the first time 

not bad prospects 

but...

I saw nothing at all to have me put them above Fields.

Is it just that people want be different?

There’s no way they actually believe he’s a better prospect than Fields. There’s no way. Can someone explain it to me. 
 

What do they see exactly?

Really? Lance I can see. But Wilson is definitely better. Fields has always been overrated. Indecisive and not good at reading defenses. Despite his athletic gifts, he doesn’t improvise well. Wilson has better physical gifts and carried a bum squad to respectability. His accuracy on the run and from odd angles is crazy. I didn’t appreciate Wilson until recently. Everyone thinks Wilson is better than Fields. It’s not a weird take. 

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, brownie man said:

Just watched Zach Wilson for the first time and Trey Lance for the first time 

not bad prospects 

but...

I saw nothing at all to have me put them above Fields.

Is it just that people want be different?

There’s no way they actually believe he’s a better prospect than Fields. There’s no way. Can someone explain it to me. 
 

What do they see exactly?

Are you kidding me? Yes, I actually believe Wilson is a better prospect, by a good margin in fact. Fields is a better pure athlete. Both have very strong arms, but Fields is more mobile. Yet, Wilson is very functionally mobile. He's quick and elusive behind the LOS. What separates them in my mind is mental acuity. Wilson moves quickly through his progressions, consistently makes the right decisions (for a college QB), reads the entire field, and has a special sense for where his receivers are and where the defense is vulnerable when improvising.

Simply put, for as gifted of an athlete and thrower as Fields is, he is lacking mentally at this stage. He might develop much more there. He doesn't have that much experience. But I prefer to go with a guy who already displays it consistently. Fields is slow through his progressions, blows reads way too often, and will force bad decisions because he failed to read the field.

Is Fields worthy of a top 10 pick? Sure. He's extremely talented and is worth a shot to see if he can continue to develop the mental side of the game. If he becomes good in that respect, he's going to be a very good to great QB. But I'm not going to take a guy who needs a lot of mental development over a guy who already shows a strong mental game and combines that with a very strong arm, good athleticism/improvisation ability, and great accuracy.

[Ozzy]

8 hours ago, jrry32 said:

 

Going 2-2 with BYU against four P5 teams that went a combined 35-18 (and each had winning records) is definitely not a knock. 

 

Agreed, it was solid what he did against those teams as a SOPH.  But fact is he had over 1300+ more yards as a JR and 20 more TDs.  To say that is not because of easier competition, well I think it is.  Also was sacked almost 10 less times and threw 6 less picks completing almost 4 yards more per competition as a JR than as a SOPH and over 10% increase in completion percentage.  Sure maybe it was just his progression as a prospect and player but is a pretty big difference one year from the next.  That run game for BYU was greatly improved, as was the OL and the TE group had multiple weapons as did the WR group.

In 2019 BYU had two different RBs with around 350 yards rushing and a few with a couple hundred or two hundred yards rushing.  And had a 688, 616 and 561 yard receivers along with a few with 400 or 300 yards. 

In 2020 Allgeier had 1130 rushing yards by himself, and receiving one guy had 1188 yards, then 767 yards, 603 yards and 429 yards.  So either he made these dudes great with his play alone, or they all kind of helped each other against the weaker competition.

 

8 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

 

It doesn't matter who had him where back when. Watson was really good at Clemson but there were clear inconsistencies. His success as a pro doesn't confirm he was a spectacular prospect that got nitpicked.

 

Watson was not nitpicked?  He had the most passing yards in his career as a JR, most TDs yet was ripped apart especially in the draft process.  I remember thinking what the hell when Trubisky was picked over him, and I totally recall the look on Watson's face when he was next to Trubisky as if to say, they think this **** is better than me?  Yeah it was nuts then and still is nuts now.  

 

10 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

100% in lock step with you, this guy has boom or bust written all over him. I'd be curious to see if a guy from Draper,UT who dominated the likes of North Alabama and Texas State can turn around a franchise like New York where they are going to want to run you out of town the first interception.

I'm definitely not saying he wouldn't be good but it will be interesting see how he deals with adversity, can he take constant hits and still be accurate, can he bring a team back when they are down, will he get frustrated when a receiver drops passes, get frustrated when the OL isn't holding up, things he didn't have to deal with at BYU.

It will be interesting that is for sure, especially if he gets drafted by the Jets, they get rid of Darnold and he is the day one starter.  He has all that the modern day NFL QB people want though, live arm, ability to throw on the move, athletic and can scramble away from pressure, quick release, ability to throw with multiple arm angles, etc.

Sam Darnold coming out of USC had a lot of the same things Wilson has, confidence, swagger, ability to throw on the move, accurate when throwing on the run etc.  Wilson does have a better arm than Darnold but Darnold played better against better competition consistently then Wilson did and made big time plays on a big time stage multiple times.  Wilson never really did that in a bowl game or championship like Darnold did.  

[CWood21]

15 hours ago, brownie man said:

What do they see exactly?

Same could be said with you and Fields.