Thing For Which We Should Give Credit to Patricia and Quin

[LionArkie]

7 minutes ago, HashtagFTW said:

Someone on FF a year ago put together some data comparing two defenses (one was the chiefs and I think the other was the Patriots). The data showed that teams with elite secondaries and bad DL’s perform far better overall than teams with elite pass rush and poor secondaries. Patriots had an elite secondary and was among the leagues worst in QB pressures whereas the Chiefs were elite in QB pressures and sacks but had a terrible secondary. That year, the Patriots had the number one overall defense whereas the Chiefs finished 16th even though they were first in qb pressure and sacks and Patriots were second to last in pressures and sacks. There was also data backing this up as more consistent then we all thought it would be using other examples. 
 

Point is, I’m not saying that one is more important than the other. However, I think the ancient way of thinking might not be as right or accurate as we all thought. Bad running game does not mean bad OL. Bad secondary doesn’t mean bad DL. Good OL doesn’t mean good offense. Good DL doesn’t mean good defense. 

Thanks for the explanation. I'm all for whatever works. I'm still antiquated in my thoughts, but I do find this interesting. I would really like to see the data. I wonder if the Patriots playing in the AFC East helps them achieve those numbers?  Since it is now more of a passing league, I could see why this would work better now.
 I will agree it isn't as cut and dry as ol means good everything, dl means good everything. I just believe it to be the best starting point.

Edited October 28, 2020 by LionArkie

[HashtagFTW]

40 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Thanks for the explanation. I'm all for whatever works. I'm still antiquated in my thoughts, but I do find this interesting. I would really like to see the data. I wonder if the Patriots playing in the AFC East helps them achieve those numbers?  Since it is now more of a passing league, I could see why this would work better now.
 I will agree it isn't as cut and dry as ol means good everything, dl means good everything. I just believe it to be the best starting point.

How can it be the best starting point when the data shows we have the NFL’s best run blocking and all of us are confused as to how that’s possible based on our average running stats? A few years ago, Dallas’ OL were absolute beasts. Everyone in the world was saying that you can throw Betty white behind the OL and she’ll rush for 1000 yards. Well, this sort of proves that’s not accurate. They just had good running backs to go with their great OL. 

[BigC421/]

2 minutes ago, HashtagFTW said:

How can it be the best starting point when the data shows we have the NFL’s best run blocking and all of us are confused as to how that’s possible based on our average running stats? A few years ago, Dallas’ OL were absolute beasts. Everyone in the world was saying that you can throw Betty white behind the OL and she’ll rush for 1000 yards. Well, this sort of proves that’s not accurate. They just had good running backs to go with their great OL. 

I disagree, it proves the Lions oline is not even in any kind of sane discussion with those Cowboys lines.  I do think the line has played fairly well but there far from any kind of elite unit.  Consistently being solid is not the same as dominating 

[LionArkie]

1 hour ago, HashtagFTW said:

How can it be the best starting point when the data shows we have the NFL’s best run blocking and all of us are confused as to how that’s possible based on our average running stats? A few years ago, Dallas’ OL were absolute beasts. Everyone in the world was saying that you can throw Betty white behind the OL and she’ll rush for 1000 yards. Well, this sort of proves that’s not accurate. They just had good running backs to go with their great OL. 

I am not saying it is a guarantee. I'm just saying if I build a team, I'm building the trenches. I like my odds. I haven't defended the Lions OL numbers this year, nor did I in the above post. In fact, if you read up I say there is more to it than a pff score.
I also admit I'm antiquated, archaic, set in my ways, an old dog allergic to new tricks, believe I have a chance to win the lotto, and lastly a Lions fan. Maybe I just happen to put the money on the wrong horse.
 

[HashtagFTW]

4 hours ago, BigC421/ said:

I disagree, it proves the Lions oline is not even in any kind of sane discussion with those Cowboys lines.  I do think the line has played fairly well but there far from any kind of elite unit.  Consistently being solid is not the same as dominating 

So you either believe the data is wrong, and/or think there’s not a single elite run blocking OL in the nfl right now. 

[BigC421/]

13 hours ago, HashtagFTW said:

So you either believe the data is wrong, and/or think there’s not a single elite run blocking OL in the nfl right now. 

The data is wrong.  It isn’t collected by professionals.  Useful ?  Sure. I know it makes people feel great to be able to look at a spread sheet and think they’ve got it all figured out now but that’s not really how it works.  I’ll trust my own eyes or the opinions of professional film analyst/football experts like Greg Cossel over some dudes with little no football background in Bangladesh marking + or - after every play.  A source that tells me the lions have a dominant oline that’s best in the league and Trey Flowers is a top 3 edge player in the league is pretty clearly flawed.  I loved pff as much as the next guy way back in the day. It was a new and interesting perspective.  The data hasn’t held up to reality over the years and they’ve been widely discredited.  Again it’s a useful tool to get some idea of player consistency but not as a full blown evaluation 
 

These are the same people who had Mo Hurst rated as the top prospect in the draft correct?

Edited October 29, 2020 by BigC421/

[Sllim Pickens]

26 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

The data is wrong.  It isn’t collected by professionals.  Useful ?  Sure. I know it makes people feel great to be able to look at a spread sheet and think they’ve got it all figured out now but that’s not really how it works.  I’ll trust my own eyes or the opinions of professional film analyst/football experts like Greg Cossel over some dudes with little no football background in Bangladesh marking + or - after every play.  A source that tells me the lions have a dominant oline that’s best in the league and Trey Flowers is a top 3 edge player in the league is pretty clearly flawed.  I loved pff as much as the next guy way back in the day. It was a new and interesting perspective.  The data hasn’t held up to reality over the years and they’ve been widely discredited.  Again it’s a useful tool to get some idea of player consistency but not as a full blown evaluation 
 

These are the same people who had Mo Hurst rated as the top prospect in the draft correct?

The people reviewing the plays are all former players, coaches, scouts etc.  The grades and plays are then re-reviewed by a senior grader who is one of the top 10% of their graders.  So while these may not be current NFL coaches doing the reviews, they are not just randoms off the street.  

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

45 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

A source that tells me the lions have a dominant oline that’s best in the league and Trey Flowers is a top 3 edge player in the league is pretty clearly flawed.

Why is this one "clearly flawed"?

[BigC421/]

1 hour ago, Sllim Pickens said:

The people reviewing the plays are all former players, coaches, scouts etc.  The grades and plays are then re-reviewed by a senior grader who is one of the top 10% of their graders.  So while these may not be current NFL coaches doing the reviews, they are not just randoms off the street.  

I’m not sure where you got the first sentence from but it’s not accurate.  They recruit and hire  everyday fans.  ThIs is from there website

ANALYST  

ProFootballFocus.com is seeking a number of highly enthusiastic and dedicated football fans to join their analysis team. If you’re a passionate follower of football, looking to expand your knowledge of the game and get a foot in the door of the football industry, then you could have what it takes to become a part of PFF.

In working for PFF you will contribute to the analysis and statistics that make PFF so unique. Every person from CEO to newest member of the team has started off working on the collation of player participation data that can take upwards of 20 hours per game to collect initially and, although this does reduce considerably with experience, it is not for the faint of heart. Producing this data improves your knowledge of the game and put you in a position to represent the PFF brand through written content, etc.

The successful candidate must have:

● Demonstrable knowledge of the NFL product and what PFF does
● A very high level of enthusiasm and passion for football and Pro Football Focus
● Excellent interpersonal and communication skills (both written and verbal)
● Ability to meet deadlines
● Positive attitude, strong work ethic, and excellent attention to detail
● At least 20 hours of free time per week, with a large amount of time available on weekends

In return, Pro Football Focus offers training, an opportunity for you to develop your own profile on a highly regarded media platform, access to data not made available to the public (even via subscription), and payment based on work done in-season depending on accuracy. This is open to anyone in the USA, Canada, the UK or Ireland. You are welcome to send a resume/cover letter, but this is not necessary.

 

Now even if it was correct what kind of former player, coach or front office personnel is really going to go to work for peanuts at pff?  
 

54 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Why is this one "clearly flawed"?

Really? Can you answer the simple question yes or no without dodging or giving a half answer full of fluff....do you believe trey flowers is a top 5 edge player in the nfl right now?

Sometimes they get it right though. I think we can all agree Mo Aly-Cox is the best TE in football this year

Edited October 29, 2020 by BigC421/

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

4 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

Really? Can you answer the simple question yes or no without dodging or giving a half answer full of fluff....do you believe trey flowers is a top 5 edge player in the nfl right now?

My answer: I don't know. I don't watch every NFL game each week, so I can't draw that conclusion one way or another. (You may not like that my answer is more than one word, but it's the right answer regardless.)

You seem to think that there's no way Flowers is a top 3 edge player in the NFL... that the mere suggestion illustrates how the suggestor is "pretty clearly flawed". I'm asking how you've come to that conclusion. (Feel free to answer with as many words as you'd like.)

[SimbaWho]

Well the only thing I see keeping this team competitive imo is a really good Oline and Matthew Stafford. 

DL, LB'ers, CB's, TE's, RB's, WR's, all being completely average or worst outside of Golladay. Seems to me a couple things are really holding this teams head above water right now and without these strengths they'd be really bad.

Need more Swift he's just a better runner imo, and maybe save AP for the short yardage stuff. Give Johnson some shots even. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by SimbaWho

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

2 minutes ago, SimbaWho said:

Well the only thing I see keeping this team competitive imo is a really good Oline and Matthew Stafford. 

DL, LB'ers, CB's, TE's, RB's, WR's, all being completely average or worst outside of Golladay. Seems to me a couple things are really holding this teams head above water right now and without these strengths they'd be really bad. 

With all of those flaws: if this team were to make the playoffs, would that reflect well on Patricia?

[BigC421/]

2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

My answer: I don't know. I don't watch every NFL game each week, so I can't draw that conclusion one way or another. (You may not like that my answer is more than one word, but it's the right answer regardless.)

You seem to think that there's no way Flowers is a top 3 edge player in the NFL... that the mere suggestion illustrates how the suggestor is "pretty clearly flawed". I'm asking how you've come to that conclusion. (Feel free to answer with as many words as you'd like.)

Well without being condescending ( I know I struggle with this lol). I can very definitively say from watching football and collective opinions of some I respect say that guys like Khalil Mack, Myles Garret, TJ Watt, Chase Young, Frank Clark, Shaq Barret, JPP, both Bosa’s ( yeah injury) , D. Lawrence, Melvin Ingram , Daniel Hunter and Yannick are all significantly better and have larger impacts on games. So yeah he’s not in my top 20 so putting him in the top 3 seems to be clearly flawed, just my opinion of course.

[SimbaWho]

Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

With all of those flaws: if this team were to make the playoffs, would that reflect well on Patricia?

I'm not sure it's his success as much as Darrell Bevel's accomplishment. Depends who you think is asking for the players in the draft/FA and making the calls in practice/on field. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

27 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

Well without being condescending ( I know I struggle with this lol). I can very definitively say from watching football and collective opinions of some I respect say that guys like Khalil Mack, Myles Garret, TJ Watt, Chase Young, Frank Clark, Shaq Barret, JPP, both Bosa’s ( yeah injury) , D. Lawrence, Melvin Ingram , Daniel Hunter and Yannick are all significantly better and have larger impacts on games. So yeah he’s not in my top 20 so putting him in the top 3 seems to be clearly flawed, just my opinion of course.

Right. But PFF isn't arguing that Flowers is a top 3 edge player in the NFL, just that he has performed at that level so far this season. It's completely possible for that to be the case.