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1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Right. But PFF isn't arguing that Flowers is a top 3 edge player in the NFL, just that he has performed at that level so far this season. It's completely possible for that to be the case.

From the games I've watched, Flowers hasn't looked like the best performing edge player on the Lions. Okwara has had a larger impact for DET imo. 

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2 hours ago, BigC421/ said:

I’m not sure where you got the first sentence from but it’s not accurate.  They recruit and hire  everyday fans.  ThIs is from there website

ANALYST  

ProFootballFocus.com is seeking a number of highly enthusiastic and dedicated football fans to join their analysis team. If you’re a passionate follower of football, looking to expand your knowledge of the game and get a foot in the door of the football industry, then you could have what it takes to become a part of PFF.

In working for PFF you will contribute to the analysis and statistics that make PFF so unique. Every person from CEO to newest member of the team has started off working on the collation of player participation data that can take upwards of 20 hours per game to collect initially and, although this does reduce considerably with experience, it is not for the faint of heart. Producing this data improves your knowledge of the game and put you in a position to represent the PFF brand through written content, etc.

The successful candidate must have:

● Demonstrable knowledge of the NFL product and what PFF does
● A very high level of enthusiasm and passion for football and Pro Football Focus
● Excellent interpersonal and communication skills (both written and verbal)
● Ability to meet deadlines
● Positive attitude, strong work ethic, and excellent attention to detail
● At least 20 hours of free time per week, with a large amount of time available on weekends

In return, Pro Football Focus offers training, an opportunity for you to develop your own profile on a highly regarded media platform, access to data not made available to the public (even via subscription), and payment based on work done in-season depending on accuracy. This is open to anyone in the USA, Canada, the UK or Ireland. You are welcome to send a resume/cover letter, but this is not necessary.

 

Now even if it was correct what kind of former player, coach or front office personnel is really going to go to work for peanuts at pff?  
 

Really? Can you answer the simple question yes or no without dodging or giving a half answer full of fluff....do you believe trey flowers is a top 5 edge player in the nfl right now?

Sometimes they get it right though. I think we can all agree Mo Aly-Cox is the best TE in football this year

WHO IS DOING THE GRADING?

PFF employs over 600 full or part-time analysts, but less than 10% of analysts are trained to the level that they can grade plays. Only the top two to three percent of analysts are on the team of “senior analysts” in charge of finalizing each grade after review. Our graders have been training for months, and sometimes years, in order to learn, understand and show mastery of our process that includes our 300-page training manual and video playbook. We have analysts from all walks of life, including former players, coaches and scouts. We don’t care if you played.

Each grade is reviewed at least once, and usually multiple times, using every camera angle available, including All-22 coaches’ tape.

https://www.pff.com/grades

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32 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

WHO IS DOING THE GRADING?

PFF employs over 600 full or part-time analysts, but less than 10% of analysts are trained to the level that they can grade plays. Only the top two to three percent of analysts are on the team of “senior analysts” in charge of finalizing each grade after review. Our graders have been training for months, and sometimes years, in order to learn, understand and show mastery of our process that includes our 300-page training manual and video playbook. We have analysts from all walks of life, including former players, coaches and scouts. We don’t care if you played.

Each grade is reviewed at least once, and usually multiple times, using every camera angle available, including All-22 coaches’ tape.

https://www.pff.com/grades

Not sure what your getting at with this?  Your original statement was 

The people reviewing the plays are all former players, coaches, scouts etc. 

 

I said this was inaccurate, which both your and my posts pulled from there site proves.  Out  of there 600 + analyst “some” are former players , coaches or scouts at the -fill in the blank- level.  Very vague and you would think if they employed anyone with NFL or even high level ncaa experience they would promote that. Says nothing of what the actual credentials of a senior analyst or anyone they employ actually is.  It is what it is 
 

 

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1 hour ago, Nnivolcm said:

From the games I've watched, Flowers hasn't looked like the best performing edge player on the Lions. Okwara has had a larger impact for DET imo. 

As a pass-rusher, sure. I imagine PFF feels that his impact against the run has been lacking.

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1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

As a pass-rusher, sure. I imagine PFF feels that his impact against the run has been lacking.

You'd think the 3rd highest rated edge player would have an impact in both run and pass defense. 

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17 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

You'd think the 3rd highest rated edge player would have an impact in both run and pass defense. 

... right. Flowers does. I was pointing out that his impact against the run is likely more than Okwara's.

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2 hours ago, BigC421/ said:

Not sure what your getting at with this?  Your original statement was 

The people reviewing the plays are all former players, coaches, scouts etc. 

 

I said this was inaccurate, which both your and my posts pulled from there site proves.  Out  of there 600 + analyst “some” are former players , coaches or scouts at the -fill in the blank- level.  Very vague and you would think if they employed anyone with NFL or even high level ncaa experience they would promote that. Says nothing of what the actual credentials of a senior analyst or anyone they employ actually is.  It is what it is 
 

 

Sorry, I forgot to bold the part that said they have coaches, players etc.  But its there if you read between the bolds. 

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28 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Sorry, I forgot to bold the part that said they have coaches, players etc.  But its there if you read between the bolds. 

I think to your point, it's a filtered process. Assuming that all 600 people are reviewing games on a weekly basis, you're looking at 37-38 people reviewing each game. That data would be put through a verification process then filtered through people with background and up to Senior Analysts. It's possible there's a couple Average Football Fan type people out there working on the games who aren't ex-NCAA/NFL players and/or coaches. I have to imagine that this work is verified by guys who are so when it does get to the analyst to do the grading that they are dealing with good data. 

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58 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

... right. Flowers does. I was pointing out that his impact against the run is likely more than Okwara's.

We're currently ranked 26th in rush yards per game on defense. The impact on the rush defense isn't that great either. 

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53 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Sorry, I forgot to bold the part that said they have coaches, players etc.  But its there if you read between the bolds. 

You could just say I was wrong

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20 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

I think to your point, it's a filtered process. Assuming that all 600 people are reviewing games on a weekly basis, you're looking at 37-38 people reviewing each game. That data would be put through a verification process then filtered through people with background and up to Senior Analysts. It's possible there's a couple Average Football Fan type people out there working on the games who aren't ex-NCAA/NFL players and/or coaches. I have to imagine that this work is verified by guys who are so when it does get to the analyst to do the grading that they are dealing with good data. 

What are you talking about?  You think they have a bunch of former nfl player, coaches and scouts on staff and just choose not to advertise that despite the fact there validity is constantly criticized?  I don’t know what more you guys want, do you really just want to believe that bad?  I have not seen a single shred of evidence that a single person of any credible background works for PFF.  How much do you think PFF pays these people?  Not enough for anyone who’s ever been employed by the NFL or a major college program I’d guess.  Neither the analyst or the people who created the grading system have any know expertise in regards to football.  
 

They created a grading system that attempts to grade consistent performance.  As far as grading or judging player impact and/or value it’s practically useless.

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34 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

What are you talking about?  You think they have a bunch of former nfl player, coaches and scouts on staff and just choose not to advertise that despite the fact there validity is constantly criticized?  I don’t know what more you guys want, do you really just want to believe that bad?  I have not seen a single shred of evidence that a single person of any credible background works for PFF.  How much do you think PFF pays these people?  Not enough for anyone who’s ever been employed by the NFL or a major college program I’d guess.  Neither the analyst or the people who created the grading system have any know expertise in regards to football.  
 

They created a grading system that attempts to grade consistent performance.  As far as grading or judging player impact and/or value it’s practically useless.

Except for the fact that although there are outliers, it pretty much tells the story of who is doing well in the NFL.  It is a well respected tool that has a lot of credibility in their assessments because its not just a Madden grade and has support behind it.  Even if it were you and me looking at the tape, and you have 600 people look at the tape, and then compile that data, let an expert review it, you will likely get good data, even if most of these guys are untrained.  Thats just basic statistical analysis.  So instead of judging them off counting stats, which rarely tell the whole story, they dig deeper.  So dig into their top players, and its no shock that the top players on PFFs list seem to go hand in hand with those who are considered the elite players.  Just because you don't want to use preconceived ideas of Flowers and the O line to negate the evidence, thats fine, but it doesnt make you right.  Just like any stat, context is needed and PFF have some of the most reliable stats as far as player impact.  

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36 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

What are you talking about?  You think they have a bunch of former nfl player, coaches and scouts on staff and just choose not to advertise that despite the fact there validity is constantly criticized?  I don’t know what more you guys want, do you really just want to believe that bad?  I have not seen a single shred of evidence that a single person of any credible background works for PFF.  How much do you think PFF pays these people?  Not enough for anyone who’s ever been employed by the NFL or a major college program I’d guess.  Neither the analyst or the people who created the grading system have any know expertise in regards to football.  
 

They created a grading system that attempts to grade consistent performance.  As far as grading or judging player impact and/or value it’s practically useless.

PFF is owned by Cris Collinsworth (former NFLer). They've had Solomon Wilcots (former NFLer), Bruce Gradkowski (former NFLer), Zac Robinson (former NFLer) all involved as senior analysts. 

I think you're also overthinking what a NFL scout gets paid. Average salary is $45,000 to $95,000 and that's assuming that you're working for a team. There are a ton of guys that get fired when a new regime comes in. Jim Nagy, director of the Reese's Senior Bowl, has discussed their annual turnover because they've brought in guys who have experience and are looking to get into that next job. 

NFL teams hire them, media folks cite them and use them as a resource. It's not the end all be all but it seems dismissive to throw it out altogether. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

You were wrong, there. 

How so ? This seems irrelevant yet irritating.  I’m not arguing PFF’s usefulness or success in this instance. You claimed the people reviewing the film were ALL former players, coaches and scouts and I think we can both agree that’s not factual at this point correct?  I went on further regarding what exactly constitutes a former player, coach or scout to them, I mean I’m a former football player.  But that’s not relevant to the original point

 

9 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Except for the fact that although there are outliers, it pretty much tells the story of who is doing well in the NFL.  It is a well respected tool that has a lot of credibility in their assessments because its not just a Madden grade and has support behind it.  Even if it were you and me looking at the tape, and you have 600 people look at the tape, and then compile that data, let an expert review it, you will likely get good data, even if most of these guys are untrained.  Thats just basic statistical analysis.  So instead of judging them off counting stats, which rarely tell the whole story, they dig deeper.  So dig into their top players, and its no shock that the top players on PFFs list seem to go hand in hand with those who are considered the elite players.  Just because you don't want to use preconceived ideas of Flowers and the O line to negate the evidence, thats fine, but it doesnt make you right.  Just like any stat, context is needed and PFF have some of the most reliable stats as far as player impact.  

I agree with this 100%. 
 

I just value there system, evaluators and results a bit less than some.

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